How to get into IT?
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Thanks; I'm vaguely aware of the difference, but wasn't sure of how to put it succinctly. There are indeed community colleges of a sort, but I'm not certain whether they would be as close to a university degree as they appear to be across the pond. One of the ones which I was looking at was the Zenos IT Academy, but I'm uncertain about it given its namesake, and I've heard that the Microsoft qualifications are only just worth the paper they're printed on
Between the idea And the reality Between the motion And the act Falls the Shadow
Computafreak wrote:
I've heard that the Microsoft qualifications are only just worth the paper they're printed on
To a large extent I'd agree with that as what the company needs is experience rather than paper but you also have to remember that you need to get past two categories of people to get a job. 1. Recruitment agencies/ HR departments who don't understand IT and don't really know what they're looking for so just look for something like an MS certificate on a CV because its an easy thing to filter by 2. The actualy developers/ IT managers who think the MS Cert is a good start but aren't that bothered and only care if you can actually do the job Unfortunately you have to make it past the first set before you get to talk to the second. I've spoken to a lot of recruiters (got made redundant last year) that had been given a list of things the person is supposed to know but have no understanding what any of them meant
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I know it's a strange topic title, but I couldn't think of anything else. Basically, I've got just under a year left at my sixth form. Maybe if the job market's still bad I'll go into a full-time college course at some form of "IT Academy", but that'd be a last resort. What I'm interested in is getting a job as a developer. But the problem is that I don't really want to get into debt going to university until I have an income to offset the repayments by enough for me to pay bills by Unfortunately all of the jobs I've seen are for people with degrees in Computer Science. And as I said, I don't want to get into debt until I have a job. So it would appear that I'm caught in some form of loop. I've got quite a few years of amateur experience in a few languages, but no commercial experience, so I can't market myself based off that; it isn't quantifiable. There doesn't really seem to be any way out of that I'm fairly aware that my CV wouldn't look good at that point - A levels, no degree, no commercial experience. Is there any way to in effect mitigate this, to make myself appear more employable?
Between the idea And the reality Between the motion And the act Falls the Shadow
First: Think where you want to work. You may work as developer in software company or somewhere else. From my experience sometimes it's better to work in IT in some other industry (EMS is my choice). Second: Get your degree. I'm fine with Bachelor's degree in CS (nope, it's not CouterStrike), but it depends on market. If you choose to work outside software industry, you may benefit from some other education like enginnering, industrial automation, robotics or RF technology. Again, from my experience somebody with degree in field that maches company profile AND can write the software may be very valuable. Third: build your experience from roots. Start building the portfolio by designing websites for friends, publish some freeware/shareware, get involved in some open source project, etc. Then, find some lousy job, to get some "commercial" experience. Find some startup or some small semi-pro "company". They usually pay small money but also have small expectations. When you get the degree, you will have also some commercial experience. Another hint: Some companies that require degree would also hire people with a year of university left. I hope I'll succeed. --- JK.
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I know it's a strange topic title, but I couldn't think of anything else. Basically, I've got just under a year left at my sixth form. Maybe if the job market's still bad I'll go into a full-time college course at some form of "IT Academy", but that'd be a last resort. What I'm interested in is getting a job as a developer. But the problem is that I don't really want to get into debt going to university until I have an income to offset the repayments by enough for me to pay bills by Unfortunately all of the jobs I've seen are for people with degrees in Computer Science. And as I said, I don't want to get into debt until I have a job. So it would appear that I'm caught in some form of loop. I've got quite a few years of amateur experience in a few languages, but no commercial experience, so I can't market myself based off that; it isn't quantifiable. There doesn't really seem to be any way out of that I'm fairly aware that my CV wouldn't look good at that point - A levels, no degree, no commercial experience. Is there any way to in effect mitigate this, to make myself appear more employable?
Between the idea And the reality Between the motion And the act Falls the Shadow
Computafreak wrote:
Unfortunately all of the jobs I've seen are for people with degrees in Computer Science
Apply for them anyway and explain that while you don't have a degree you could still be the right candidate. Job ads detail the candidate the employer would like to get, but I know from experience that if someone is the right person they can still get the job without ticking all the boxes listed in the ad. For instance here we're in the middle of recruiting a new developer but when I asked my boss what level we were recruiting at he said that he was flexible - if the right junior showed up he'd employ them. I'm not saying that all those job ads could be filled by people with no experience or degrees but some of them might be happy to take you on. Having said that, still get yourself a degree as well. I don't have one - I did an HND at night school - and I really feel the lack of it as the rest of my team all have computer science degrees. Unfortunately I no longer have the energy to do another qualification in my spare time!
Regards Nelviticus
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Unfortunately it's not interest free, it's low interest though, base rate + 1% pa. So if you don't get that job it's pretty daunting to have all that grow. I graduated 2 years ago before the tuition fees hike, and only paid £1k a year tuition but even on top of this, you need about another £1k a term (3 of those a year) to simply survive, probably another £500 if you want a life while you're there too, and you won't get a student loan for any of that. I currently get docked £42 a month of my paycheck automatically to pay mine back (decided by SLC, but lump payments are available), and have about £9k left to pay. A lot of people get the impression that being a student is an easy choice and an excuse to party for 3 years, those who go into uni thinking this will suffer when they leave. Personally I had the time of my life while I was there, balanced work/play well and wouldn't trade my time there for anything! Worth every penny.
He who makes a beast out of himself gets rid of the pain of being a man
Suggested reading: http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2009/mar/24/nicholas-barr-graduate-tax[^], http://www.studentloan.co.uk/[^] Yes, it's a loan. However, as you rightly point out, the interest rate is very low. Also, you only have to pay it off when your salary exceeds a certain level. If you remain unable to pay it off for 25 years, it is written off. Ok, so I grant that, for someone who expects to earn above the threshold (as any development job should be), it will dent your future net income. But the safety net of the student loan still benefits you - it protects against job loss - and is much safer than other loans (e.g. mortgage). I hear your point about needing money from elsewhere; even in the days of means-tested grants, many parents were expected to cough up, and recently Universities have put a lot of effort into improving bursery schemes and such. As someone else said, it's an investment. Whether it's a worthwhile investment is up to you. Looked at financially (which isn't the only investment to consider) - the question is whether the cost will be offset by a higher salary. That's a difficult question to answer. One factor which comes to mind is the current state of the economy; jobs will be difficult to find now, but should be more readily available in 4? years time when you graduate. That said, as other posters have said, a degree isn't a free entry into a developer job. Companies will be looking for other experience. Consider defering University entry by a year and applying for a 1 year placement in a development company. That will give you very good experience for your resume, will boost your finances, will get a foot in the door at that company (e.g. for summer work, or for a permanent job), and will give you the opportunity to consider whether Uni is the right choice.
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I know it's a strange topic title, but I couldn't think of anything else. Basically, I've got just under a year left at my sixth form. Maybe if the job market's still bad I'll go into a full-time college course at some form of "IT Academy", but that'd be a last resort. What I'm interested in is getting a job as a developer. But the problem is that I don't really want to get into debt going to university until I have an income to offset the repayments by enough for me to pay bills by Unfortunately all of the jobs I've seen are for people with degrees in Computer Science. And as I said, I don't want to get into debt until I have a job. So it would appear that I'm caught in some form of loop. I've got quite a few years of amateur experience in a few languages, but no commercial experience, so I can't market myself based off that; it isn't quantifiable. There doesn't really seem to be any way out of that I'm fairly aware that my CV wouldn't look good at that point - A levels, no degree, no commercial experience. Is there any way to in effect mitigate this, to make myself appear more employable?
Between the idea And the reality Between the motion And the act Falls the Shadow
You've got several options - you are not limited to following just one path: Get a degree. You *will* get a job eventually, so don't worry about the loan. It is an investment in your future. Check out the terms of the loan - you may find they're more favourable than you expect. The main thing about a degree is *not* the subject knowledge itself (although a CS degree may help get you into IT), but is the experience you get along the way. You'll learn to think on a higher level; to research, analyse and study. A degree isn't an easy option but it is worthwhile. I certainly don't regret mine. Of course, there are options other than a degree. You could go for an HND, for example - but it won't have the employability of a degree. You might also consider getting yourself certified as a Microsoft professional. The cheapest way to get an MCP exam is self study. It will cost you (a) the price of a good book (b) the cost of the exam itself and (c) a *lot* of personal study time. Certs are not as useful as they were in the past, but they can help (and are lot better than blank CV). That's what I did and it helped me. You need to get some experience. Grab Visual Studio Express or Netbeans and teach yourself to program. Then program. For example, you could write articles for CP, work on open source software or write a useful little app for a local community group or just to give away on the internet. In my view (and I have been involved in a bit of recruitment) experience is *far* more important than qualifications. At the end of the day, a piece of paper shows an employer that you can learn (which is good in itself). Experience shows that you can do the job (which is better - you can't possibly do unless you can learn as well). You can always apply for jobs with the experience you have now. You never know. I've got jobs in the past that I wasn't qualified for (on paper). You could coinsider getting into something else and move into IT later. I trained as a teacher, ended up as a technical demonstrator, moved into general IT and then specialised as a developer. That said, I might well have been better off skipping the teaching and going straight down the IT route. One thing that is important. I don't think anyone can be a good developer unless they are motivated to do self-study and to explore the craft in their own time. If you can't do that, development isn't your true vocation. If you can... you're starting out on the most exciting career path that there is. Enjoy the ride! All the best.
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The very best thing you can do is buy a computer, get Visual Studio Express (or buy Standard which covers 99% of what most developers need), buy some books and teach yourself how to program. Even if you go to University, this is still the very best way to learn. Be very willing to move and relocate and look for companies willing to hire you for cheap. Get experience. Got to another company and so forth. This method may take you a little longer to get to high salary and will cut you off from some jobs, especially at big companies that use a degree just to filter applicants, but you won't end up with massive debt and you will likely be a far better developer than someone college trained (especially if they do no learning on their own, like far too many people posting questions in the forums.) I work with a guy who knew an awful lot before he went to college. Now he knows a little more and has to make $300 a month payments on his student loans. I think he wasted his time. Had he spent six hours every evening teaching himself, he'd know just as much, if not more, and not have all the debt. (And I can't repeat enough how much people don't care about degrees in my region of the US.)
Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
one thing that i did in the beginning was to find a small business that wanted their own website w/database, or in my case, they had an existing website they wanted to "upgrade". they really didn't want to pay the $80 per hr for development, so i did it for peanuts.the small business got what they wanted & i got a bit of "street cred" as a developer, plus it's nice in an interview to drop a couple of dot-com names as "proof of ability". and i also went the "community college" route which really no one seemed to mind, but i did get an oracle cert as well. but, really, only HR cares about degrees. ability & experience go a long way with 99% of the employers i've interviewed with. that's my 2-cents
rik_b
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I know it's a strange topic title, but I couldn't think of anything else. Basically, I've got just under a year left at my sixth form. Maybe if the job market's still bad I'll go into a full-time college course at some form of "IT Academy", but that'd be a last resort. What I'm interested in is getting a job as a developer. But the problem is that I don't really want to get into debt going to university until I have an income to offset the repayments by enough for me to pay bills by Unfortunately all of the jobs I've seen are for people with degrees in Computer Science. And as I said, I don't want to get into debt until I have a job. So it would appear that I'm caught in some form of loop. I've got quite a few years of amateur experience in a few languages, but no commercial experience, so I can't market myself based off that; it isn't quantifiable. There doesn't really seem to be any way out of that I'm fairly aware that my CV wouldn't look good at that point - A levels, no degree, no commercial experience. Is there any way to in effect mitigate this, to make myself appear more employable?
Between the idea And the reality Between the motion And the act Falls the Shadow
As an employer, given the opportunity to hire: 1) a cheap noobie, 2) a cheap graduate, 3) a cheap experienced non-graduate, or 4) a cheap experienced graduate, which would you choose? The market is flooded. Companies now have the opportunity to choose the cream-of-the-crop at bargain prices/benefits. Companies don't want to train someone just to lose the person to another company. They want experience too. They can interview, 'till they're blue, and they do. Experience is king. A piece of expensive paper (a diploma) simply places you in a different pile on a desk. ... My two cents ... :)
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As an employer, given the opportunity to hire: 1) a cheap noobie, 2) a cheap graduate, 3) a cheap experienced non-graduate, or 4) a cheap experienced graduate, which would you choose? The market is flooded. Companies now have the opportunity to choose the cream-of-the-crop at bargain prices/benefits. Companies don't want to train someone just to lose the person to another company. They want experience too. They can interview, 'till they're blue, and they do. Experience is king. A piece of expensive paper (a diploma) simply places you in a different pile on a desk. ... My two cents ... :)
Just after I posted, I came across this link: Job Seekers: Get Ready for the "Character" Interview http://www.cio.com/article/print/495920
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I know it's a strange topic title, but I couldn't think of anything else. Basically, I've got just under a year left at my sixth form. Maybe if the job market's still bad I'll go into a full-time college course at some form of "IT Academy", but that'd be a last resort. What I'm interested in is getting a job as a developer. But the problem is that I don't really want to get into debt going to university until I have an income to offset the repayments by enough for me to pay bills by Unfortunately all of the jobs I've seen are for people with degrees in Computer Science. And as I said, I don't want to get into debt until I have a job. So it would appear that I'm caught in some form of loop. I've got quite a few years of amateur experience in a few languages, but no commercial experience, so I can't market myself based off that; it isn't quantifiable. There doesn't really seem to be any way out of that I'm fairly aware that my CV wouldn't look good at that point - A levels, no degree, no commercial experience. Is there any way to in effect mitigate this, to make myself appear more employable?
Between the idea And the reality Between the motion And the act Falls the Shadow
Perhaps you could study part-time while working in a junior development role. That way you will mitigate your expenses. By commencing a course, a prospective employer may see you in a more favourable light. Writing CP articles will also definitely help. Do not underestimate the power of the published article! I read a book recently called Outliers. In it, the author explains that to become an expert in any field takes approximately 10,000 hours of practice/work. It's a long journey, but one better started sooner than later. Good luck with your decision. Cheers, Daniel
Daniel Vaughan Blog: DanielVaughan.Orpius.com
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I know it's a strange topic title, but I couldn't think of anything else. Basically, I've got just under a year left at my sixth form. Maybe if the job market's still bad I'll go into a full-time college course at some form of "IT Academy", but that'd be a last resort. What I'm interested in is getting a job as a developer. But the problem is that I don't really want to get into debt going to university until I have an income to offset the repayments by enough for me to pay bills by Unfortunately all of the jobs I've seen are for people with degrees in Computer Science. And as I said, I don't want to get into debt until I have a job. So it would appear that I'm caught in some form of loop. I've got quite a few years of amateur experience in a few languages, but no commercial experience, so I can't market myself based off that; it isn't quantifiable. There doesn't really seem to be any way out of that I'm fairly aware that my CV wouldn't look good at that point - A levels, no degree, no commercial experience. Is there any way to in effect mitigate this, to make myself appear more employable?
Between the idea And the reality Between the motion And the act Falls the Shadow
As some people said here, you must first decide whether you want to get into IT or become a Software Engineer. These are two totally different things, related only because they have something to do with computers. If you want to do IT (the easiest one I think): IMHO a vendor certification like MCSE will get you into the door more so than a degree, though degree wouldn't hurt. This is what computertraining.com is teaching. I think this one is easier to get into because employers ask for specific things that you've been taught, and you're going to be doing those specific things. Software Engineer: You pretty much have to get a degree in Computer Science, unless you're really lucky and you know someone. You also have to have analytical skills. The degree actually does very little to prepare you for real-world development job, so you have to either get lucky and get one of the very few entry level positions, or get very lucky and get internship/COOP experience while you're still in college. Did I mention that analytical skills and abstract thinking is what you need, versus specific skills for IT? This does pay more.
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I know it's a strange topic title, but I couldn't think of anything else. Basically, I've got just under a year left at my sixth form. Maybe if the job market's still bad I'll go into a full-time college course at some form of "IT Academy", but that'd be a last resort. What I'm interested in is getting a job as a developer. But the problem is that I don't really want to get into debt going to university until I have an income to offset the repayments by enough for me to pay bills by Unfortunately all of the jobs I've seen are for people with degrees in Computer Science. And as I said, I don't want to get into debt until I have a job. So it would appear that I'm caught in some form of loop. I've got quite a few years of amateur experience in a few languages, but no commercial experience, so I can't market myself based off that; it isn't quantifiable. There doesn't really seem to be any way out of that I'm fairly aware that my CV wouldn't look good at that point - A levels, no degree, no commercial experience. Is there any way to in effect mitigate this, to make myself appear more employable?
Between the idea And the reality Between the motion And the act Falls the Shadow
I would look at some non-paid tempr. positions first. It might be helpful to get a first hand-on experience on what happening in real commercial software development. Three months in such a place may open your view on what you need to strengthen or learn. After what you may put this experience into your resume and be more brave in looking for the job.
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I know it's a strange topic title, but I couldn't think of anything else. Basically, I've got just under a year left at my sixth form. Maybe if the job market's still bad I'll go into a full-time college course at some form of "IT Academy", but that'd be a last resort. What I'm interested in is getting a job as a developer. But the problem is that I don't really want to get into debt going to university until I have an income to offset the repayments by enough for me to pay bills by Unfortunately all of the jobs I've seen are for people with degrees in Computer Science. And as I said, I don't want to get into debt until I have a job. So it would appear that I'm caught in some form of loop. I've got quite a few years of amateur experience in a few languages, but no commercial experience, so I can't market myself based off that; it isn't quantifiable. There doesn't really seem to be any way out of that I'm fairly aware that my CV wouldn't look good at that point - A levels, no degree, no commercial experience. Is there any way to in effect mitigate this, to make myself appear more employable?
Between the idea And the reality Between the motion And the act Falls the Shadow
I agree with everything my colleagues on this post are saying and advising. I am a senior software engineer and have been in the field for 35 years so I have seen everything and anything the field can throw at someone. Corporate IT, as a number of the posts state, is a nightmare for someone who wants to create decent software. However, it is where most techs land up. Your degrees, no matter where you attend university, are worthless after a few years except as an addition to your resume... or if you have your eye on management. Hiring managers are looking for experience over and above everything else except where nepotism is concerned. This is what I would suggest if you want to make this field your career and survive it to retire with a sense of satisfaction and contentment: 1) Go to a 2-year school and get good training in programming and systems development. Most techs coming out of 4 year schools these days (especially the good ones) have no idea how to design systems and applications. They come out with a lot of detailed knowledge which is mostly worthless in the real world of development and no common- sense on how to approach things. IT university training has become just like business education... mostly nonsense. 2) DO NOT ENTER THE CORPORATE WORLD except as a last resort. Start on your own and when you feel confidant enough advertise your services as a freelancer\independent developer. You can begin with several options but mine would be... Start your own technical-blog to get your articles out on the Internet... as well as your name. Develop your own web-site and make it elegant and simple. This work will automatically display your capabilities. Offer your services as an intern without any pay to get references and commercial experience. Its what college students used to do years ago. Now they all want to be paid and no one wants to pay their "dues" to enter the field. Not only does business have opportunities but so too does the world of game programming and there are plenty of inexpensive and free options to take advantage of to test your skills as a game-developer. However, many of these opportunities will take persistence to get to them as a new person in the field. Don't be dismayed by the rough going. This is a rough field and it doesn't get easier for any of us no matter how long we have been in it. 3) DON'T study every detail about writing programs but develop what you enjoy dev
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Just as an FYI, in the US, a Bachelor's Degree is given by a certified institution, whether a University, Community College or Trade School. Trade Schools typically don't offer a Bachelor's degree (or get certified and then reduce their teaching staff. For anything but computer repair, trade schools in the US are largely worthless, with some individual schools shining, but you'd only know that by doing a lot of research.) My experience for hiring in the US is that hiring managers don't care about a degree if you have any experience, even on your own. I'm one; I just care about whether you can do your job. Of the best developers I know (i.e. ones I would hire immediately, without question), only two have CS degrees. About 40% have degrees from the college of engineering, usually EE (from universities where the computer science department is entirely separate from the college of engineering) the rest have a Math degrees, an entirely unrelated degree or no degree at all.
Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
Any programmer can write code that the computer understands, a good programmer writes code that people understand. I have noticed that programmers with a BS diploma understand better and deeper the concepts about the how and why of software engineering. The IT market has been corrupted and people who can write a subroutine in VB6 declare themselves to be programmers. Of course, like everything, there are exceptions. :) I think that the school you attend is not the problem, the key is the amount of time you are willing to invest in studying and practicing. And that is true, HR people does not have clue about recruiting good technical people and as long as you disguise your CV, you have opened the first door.:cool:
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Any programmer can write code that the computer understands, a good programmer writes code that people understand. I have noticed that programmers with a BS diploma understand better and deeper the concepts about the how and why of software engineering. The IT market has been corrupted and people who can write a subroutine in VB6 declare themselves to be programmers. Of course, like everything, there are exceptions. :) I think that the school you attend is not the problem, the key is the amount of time you are willing to invest in studying and practicing. And that is true, HR people does not have clue about recruiting good technical people and as long as you disguise your CV, you have opened the first door.:cool:
cepi69 wrote:
I have noticed that programmers with a BS diploma understand better and deeper the concepts about the how and why of software engineering.
I respectfully disagree and have, in fact, found precisely the opposite. I find that programmers with degrees in Computer Science tend to favor complex solutions over simple and see programming itself as the end-goal, not a solution for someone's problems. The very worse are those with advanced degrees, especially PhDs (every CS PhD I've worked with--no exceptions--has come up with the most complex, convoluted solutions to the most basic problems.)
cepi69 wrote:
The IT market has been corrupted and people who can write a subroutine in VB6 declare themselves to be programmers.
I agree. Unfortunately, I've seen the same with people who major in computer science and couldn't write useful code to save their lives. The competent CS graduates I know all did extensive programming outside their classes. Some had jobs in programming, others did a lot of hobby work. PS. A big reason I didn't major in CS is that at the time--early 1980s--most programs were very heavy into theory and mainframes and I wanted to write consumer applications. Still prefer that area. What startles me the most now with CS grads is how many have no idea a) how to plan and/or estimate projects, b) how to work on a team (I'm not talking the kumbaya, let's all get along crap, but how to share code, divide labor, argue, etc.) c) how to debug and d) how to write coherently (this last one is true for too many college grads from all countries.)
Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
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cepi69 wrote:
I have noticed that programmers with a BS diploma understand better and deeper the concepts about the how and why of software engineering.
I respectfully disagree and have, in fact, found precisely the opposite. I find that programmers with degrees in Computer Science tend to favor complex solutions over simple and see programming itself as the end-goal, not a solution for someone's problems. The very worse are those with advanced degrees, especially PhDs (every CS PhD I've worked with--no exceptions--has come up with the most complex, convoluted solutions to the most basic problems.)
cepi69 wrote:
The IT market has been corrupted and people who can write a subroutine in VB6 declare themselves to be programmers.
I agree. Unfortunately, I've seen the same with people who major in computer science and couldn't write useful code to save their lives. The competent CS graduates I know all did extensive programming outside their classes. Some had jobs in programming, others did a lot of hobby work. PS. A big reason I didn't major in CS is that at the time--early 1980s--most programs were very heavy into theory and mainframes and I wanted to write consumer applications. Still prefer that area. What startles me the most now with CS grads is how many have no idea a) how to plan and/or estimate projects, b) how to work on a team (I'm not talking the kumbaya, let's all get along crap, but how to share code, divide labor, argue, etc.) c) how to debug and d) how to write coherently (this last one is true for too many college grads from all countries.)
Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
Joe Woodbury wrote:
a) how to plan and/or estimate projects,
Without a few large outside projects I don't think this is learnable in school. Normal assignments aren't really large enough to get a handle on this; and learning seems to require time at the school of hard knocks.
Joe Woodbury wrote:
, b) how to work on a team (I'm not talking the kumbaya, let's all get along crap, but how to share code, divide labor, argue, etc.)
My school offered a software engineering class; it was at the top of the anything but list, because unless you joined with several friends you trusted you'd find yourself having to do all the work of idiot/slackers in your group if you wanted to pass. The part of "but my A in it looked really good to people who were interviewing me when I graduated" (heard from several peers who did take that sort of class) never made it back to undergrad land in my school. :doh:
Joe Woodbury wrote:
c) how to debug
Won't argue here. I was taught in HS, I don't recall any teaching in college on this subject at all.
It is a truth universally acknowledged that a zombie in possession of brains must be in want of more brains. -- Pride and Prejudice and Zombies
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I would look at some non-paid tempr. positions first. It might be helpful to get a first hand-on experience on what happening in real commercial software development. Three months in such a place may open your view on what you need to strengthen or learn. After what you may put this experience into your resume and be more brave in looking for the job.
I would take the road less traveled and get a degree. You have a much better chance of getting hired for part-time or summer work while in school because you are making a commitment to the field you want to be in. When you invest your own time and money in a career it says a lot about your character and drive. I agree there are plenty of exceptional developers with no formal education but having a degree proves that you started a 3 or 4 year project and saw it through to completion. How is that for real life experience!
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Joe Woodbury wrote:
a) how to plan and/or estimate projects,
Without a few large outside projects I don't think this is learnable in school. Normal assignments aren't really large enough to get a handle on this; and learning seems to require time at the school of hard knocks.
Joe Woodbury wrote:
, b) how to work on a team (I'm not talking the kumbaya, let's all get along crap, but how to share code, divide labor, argue, etc.)
My school offered a software engineering class; it was at the top of the anything but list, because unless you joined with several friends you trusted you'd find yourself having to do all the work of idiot/slackers in your group if you wanted to pass. The part of "but my A in it looked really good to people who were interviewing me when I graduated" (heard from several peers who did take that sort of class) never made it back to undergrad land in my school. :doh:
Joe Woodbury wrote:
c) how to debug
Won't argue here. I was taught in HS, I don't recall any teaching in college on this subject at all.
It is a truth universally acknowledged that a zombie in possession of brains must be in want of more brains. -- Pride and Prejudice and Zombies
dan neely wrote:
Without a few large outside projects I don't think this is learnable in school.
If colleges and universities weren't so locked into tradition, this would be possible. I know, because I got my film degree from a college that did it--Columbia College, Hollywood (sounds cheesy, but it was a very good college at the time; in the late 90s it sucked, don't know about now.) The way it worked was 1) it was a "two year" program (actually six semesters in 21 months) 2) it did only film classes--you had to have an associates degree or equivalent to be accepted 3) all juniors had to work on senior projects in a secondary capacity (gaffer, grip, etc.) 4) Each semester in your senior year a full class was devoted to a project. Each student was required to fill a major position in that project: director, producer, editor or director of photography/camera operator. (The teacher gave some leeway for people wanting to specialize or if projects went south, which at least one did every semester.) One flaw in my film program, which even the dean once told me was a mistake, was giving directors too much latitude in picking the teams. Problem is that the team leads tended to be the rich kids [since they could afford going over-budget] and they tended to pick people who would make their project easy, not the best. Neumont University has done something similar with CS; they bring in businesses and have groups work on a project. The problem is that as you pointed out, you often end up with groups where one or two people do the work and the rest are slackers (either out of laziness or because they are incompetent.) The point is that I think most colleges and universities have completely lost sight of their true mission and have become absurdly tradition bound. They have become employment factories for the unemployable more than a way for people to truly expand their knowledge and abilities.
Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
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I know it's a strange topic title, but I couldn't think of anything else. Basically, I've got just under a year left at my sixth form. Maybe if the job market's still bad I'll go into a full-time college course at some form of "IT Academy", but that'd be a last resort. What I'm interested in is getting a job as a developer. But the problem is that I don't really want to get into debt going to university until I have an income to offset the repayments by enough for me to pay bills by Unfortunately all of the jobs I've seen are for people with degrees in Computer Science. And as I said, I don't want to get into debt until I have a job. So it would appear that I'm caught in some form of loop. I've got quite a few years of amateur experience in a few languages, but no commercial experience, so I can't market myself based off that; it isn't quantifiable. There doesn't really seem to be any way out of that I'm fairly aware that my CV wouldn't look good at that point - A levels, no degree, no commercial experience. Is there any way to in effect mitigate this, to make myself appear more employable?
Between the idea And the reality Between the motion And the act Falls the Shadow
Get into an IT department of a large company in any capacity – some or the best titles are assistant or a secretary reporting to a person who manages the IT department or at list have a capacity to assign duties. Do your job well, complete all the tasks before the deadlines, and report to your supervisor as soon as you completed the task. Volunteer your services for any tasks that others within your department don’t want to do or cannot do due to whatever reason. Doing these steps will allow you to achieve the following: 1. Open doors into the field/profession you want to be in; 2. Give you exposure, hands-on training and experience while YOU are being paid; Then start doing the following steps: 1. Buy trying to complete all your tasks before assigned deadlines make your manager scramble to give you more duties and increasingly complex tasks; 2. Open eyes of your manager that you could be used to unload duties (actual IT-related tasks) that others can’t or don’t want to do; 3. This, in turn, gives you even greater exposure to even more technical/complex IT-related tasks and more IT-related hands-on training. 4. Start asking to be sent to courses you’ve picked. Start getting certifications on any subject you’ve mastered (MS Office, VB, etc.) 5. As for adjustment of your status to better reflect the duties you are now doing and to allow your manager to unload even higher-level tasks on you. 6. Repeat steps 1 through 5 each time increasing your goals. I am an immigrant from Russia. In Russia I went through 4 years of prestigious University (economic degree) but did not complete the actual Bachelors degree as my immigration process had to be completed before my graduation. I came to the US when I was around 21. When in US, just like you, I did not feel like going through another 4-6 years of schooling with no guarantee of adequate income afterwards to compensate me for the time and money spent during the college years. I used the above technique to first learn English (I spent 1 year working in a restaurant and using this job to talk to English-speakers – this was a minimum wage job). Then, I received my Administrative and Accounting credentials as follows: a. got a job as a junior secretary to a General Manager in one of the largest family of car dealerships in California with a salary of 24k a year; b. within a year I became his Administrative Assistant with 30k a year and access to hight-level duties; c. On my 3rd year I started programming some VB routines in MS Office (custom programs in MS Acces
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I know it's a strange topic title, but I couldn't think of anything else. Basically, I've got just under a year left at my sixth form. Maybe if the job market's still bad I'll go into a full-time college course at some form of "IT Academy", but that'd be a last resort. What I'm interested in is getting a job as a developer. But the problem is that I don't really want to get into debt going to university until I have an income to offset the repayments by enough for me to pay bills by Unfortunately all of the jobs I've seen are for people with degrees in Computer Science. And as I said, I don't want to get into debt until I have a job. So it would appear that I'm caught in some form of loop. I've got quite a few years of amateur experience in a few languages, but no commercial experience, so I can't market myself based off that; it isn't quantifiable. There doesn't really seem to be any way out of that I'm fairly aware that my CV wouldn't look good at that point - A levels, no degree, no commercial experience. Is there any way to in effect mitigate this, to make myself appear more employable?
Between the idea And the reality Between the motion And the act Falls the Shadow
I'd recommend you do some freelance. It will both build up your experience and resumé. When I started developing I was 15 years old, and with 16 I developed a small application to control sales and the warehouse of my uncle's ink store. It gave me little money return, but was worth the experience. Find yourself a little shop in the neighborhood that needs some sort of automation on anything (barcode, etc) and try selling your job. If you start small, you can build up your freelance status to start bigger things. After you build up your experience a little, you can add that to your resumé and then start looking for a job on corporations. You could also add that you are self taught. When I got my first job I wasn't even in the university yet. But I got it, in a factory. Started doing big projects there and building up even more experience and since then I haven't stopped and have been growing since. Regards, Fábio
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Computafreak wrote:
I've heard that the Microsoft qualifications are only just worth the paper they're printed on
To a large extent I'd agree with that as what the company needs is experience rather than paper but you also have to remember that you need to get past two categories of people to get a job. 1. Recruitment agencies/ HR departments who don't understand IT and don't really know what they're looking for so just look for something like an MS certificate on a CV because its an easy thing to filter by 2. The actualy developers/ IT managers who think the MS Cert is a good start but aren't that bothered and only care if you can actually do the job Unfortunately you have to make it past the first set before you get to talk to the second. I've spoken to a lot of recruiters (got made redundant last year) that had been given a list of things the person is supposed to know but have no understanding what any of them meant
KungFuCoder wrote:
Recruitment agencies/ HR departments
When I entered software development from another industry I found that the best approach was to try and seek out the actual technical department in companies (basically I did a lot of running around handing out CVs at reception). Recruitment agencies were a complete waste of time. Typically I would be told to come back when I've got some commercial experience. I was able to get a few interviews but none were successful. In the end I landed a tech support role that could leverage my engineering background. In that tech support role I was able to do some programming and so could legitimately say I had commercial experience. Then that made it easier to land my first proper development job.
Kevin