the american-iraq-taliban-thing...
-
I believe it's the (British) S.A.S. that have a saying, "Big boys' games, big boys' rules". Enough said really..... B.
-
i had this discussion with a guy recently where he was bleating on at how badly the poor taliban fighters were being treated in cuba by the americans ... having to wear hoods and being handcuffed etc ... like duh! whether its fair or not its a simple fact that everyone should know by now ... if you play soldier boy with the americans you will lose and get f**ked up in the process ... if you cant figure that out by now you really shouldnt be playing with guns and bombs and besides if you do play with guns and bombs you deserve whatever you get in return
"... and so i said to him ... if it don't dance (or code) and you can't eat it either f**k it or throw it away"
biz stuff about melauren wrote: and besides if you do play with guns and bombs you deserve whatever you get in return Yeah but it doesn't matter. You could rape babies, be treated badly and still have nutters bleating that you should be treated better. People just want to appear to be on a moral* high ground. High minded, caring, "we are just bringing ourselves down to their level" blah blah etc. blah. It is the done thing. In our day and age it is not proper to reveal that you really want to hurt the buggers for what they did, that they should be raped back etc. And the problem is that everyone goes along with that, so everyone bleats which just re-enforces the reason to bleat, rather than trying to bring out what people really think. Saying all of that: I am glad they left that one high up Talibanananana critter in Pakistan where the ends justifies the means. * or ethically, whichever the right word is, I can never figure that one out
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South Africa -
I guess you just described the typical US-american view of the world. -- Scanned MSDN Mag ad with YOUR name: www.magerquark.de/misc/CodeProject.html See me: www.magerquark.de
And I guess you just described the typical Germano-European view of americans. Tomaz
-
which I thought that would change witn WTC attacks. Not that I agree with that horrible act, it's far away from that. But this view is the main reason people usually hate americans. I'm talking about the others. I tend not to generalize things, there are good americans, there are bad... people just remember the bad ones.
RodLima wrote: people just remember the bad ones. Most arabs in middle-east never saw the [good] americans (i mean, americans who were good to them)! They just see US policies. 1. supporting creation of Israel against Arab wishes. 2. supporting Israel with military equipment. 3. overthrowing a democratic Iranian president and replace him with Shah. 4. support Saddam to fight Khomeini 5. supporting Saudis for oil, even though most 9/11 guys were Saudi (no option, I guess) - other than get a fovaouable govt. in Iraq. etc ..... These are the things that remain in memory, because they change lives. The good deeds most often are not in the same league. I can think of Russians probably loving Gorbachev for freeing them from the communist party autocracy.
-
which I thought that would change witn WTC attacks. Not that I agree with that horrible act, it's far away from that. But this view is the main reason people usually hate americans. I'm talking about the others. I tend not to generalize things, there are good americans, there are bad... people just remember the bad ones.
I would not agree. I had (perhaps rare) opportunity to meet and know in person many American haters in Europe. Most of them (now I am sincere) hate Americans, because their life's gone bad and they need distraction. Their heads are usually full of leftist propaganda (this is especially true for my German friends which appear to me close to brainwashed, when we meet) and have no idea what they are talking about. Tomaz
-
i had this discussion with a guy recently where he was bleating on at how badly the poor taliban fighters were being treated in cuba by the americans ... having to wear hoods and being handcuffed etc ... like duh! whether its fair or not its a simple fact that everyone should know by now ... if you play soldier boy with the americans you will lose and get f**ked up in the process ... if you cant figure that out by now you really shouldnt be playing with guns and bombs and besides if you do play with guns and bombs you deserve whatever you get in return
"... and so i said to him ... if it don't dance (or code) and you can't eat it either f**k it or throw it away"
biz stuff about melauren wrote: i had this discussion with a guy recently where he was bleating on at how badly the poor taliban fighters were being treated in cuba by the americans ... having to wear hoods and being handcuffed etc ... like duh! I think that your friend is right to some respect... The treatment that Taliban fighters received is far from the standards they are used to. I guess a bullet in the head (preferably at some sports stadium) would have been much closer to the traditional way they might consider much more apropriate.
/* I C++, therefore I am... */
-
I would not agree. I had (perhaps rare) opportunity to meet and know in person many American haters in Europe. Most of them (now I am sincere) hate Americans, because their life's gone bad and they need distraction. Their heads are usually full of leftist propaganda (this is especially true for my German friends which appear to me close to brainwashed, when we meet) and have no idea what they are talking about. Tomaz
tstih wrote: Their heads are usually full of leftist propaganda (this is especially true for my German friends which appear to me close to brainwashed, when we meet) and have no idea what they are talking about. The funny thing is they probably think the same of you; swapping appropriate words of course :) [Edit: when will I learn to spell think?]
James Sig code stolen from David Wulff
-
And I guess you just described the typical Germano-European view of americans. Tomaz
Of course! -- Scanned MSDN Mag ad with YOUR name: www.magerquark.de/misc/CodeProject.html See me: www.magerquark.de
-
RodLima wrote: people just remember the bad ones. Most arabs in middle-east never saw the [good] americans (i mean, americans who were good to them)! They just see US policies. 1. supporting creation of Israel against Arab wishes. 2. supporting Israel with military equipment. 3. overthrowing a democratic Iranian president and replace him with Shah. 4. support Saddam to fight Khomeini 5. supporting Saudis for oil, even though most 9/11 guys were Saudi (no option, I guess) - other than get a fovaouable govt. in Iraq. etc ..... These are the things that remain in memory, because they change lives. The good deeds most often are not in the same league. I can think of Russians probably loving Gorbachev for freeing them from the communist party autocracy.
yep. Good point, George. I would just add that the above is just oh so shallow European leftist. Typically an angry German will use these facts, but only to criticize United States. But he will be left pointless, when asked about alternatives. For example: So what do you think, how we should handle Israel in 48? So are you saying that the world should leave Israelis to their fate? So should Americans let Iranians under Khomeini defeat Iraq? Would you prefer to have unstable Saudi Arabia and pay double for gasoline? Hell, I can be a libertarian primadonna in the same way. And critisize leftist views. I can start with critique of Soviet Union and China. But that would sound ridiculus to the other side. Because they would be on the receiving end. But when they do it they really don't think about how stupid they sound with only critique and no alternatives offered. Tomaz
-
lauren wrote: and besides if you do play with guns and bombs you deserve whatever you get in return Yeah but it doesn't matter. You could rape babies, be treated badly and still have nutters bleating that you should be treated better. People just want to appear to be on a moral* high ground. High minded, caring, "we are just bringing ourselves down to their level" blah blah etc. blah. It is the done thing. In our day and age it is not proper to reveal that you really want to hurt the buggers for what they did, that they should be raped back etc. And the problem is that everyone goes along with that, so everyone bleats which just re-enforces the reason to bleat, rather than trying to bring out what people really think. Saying all of that: I am glad they left that one high up Talibanananana critter in Pakistan where the ends justifies the means. * or ethically, whichever the right word is, I can never figure that one out
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South AfricaMoral (Encarta's summary definitions): 1. involving right and wrong 2. derived from personal conscience 3. in terms of natural justice 4. encouraging goodness and respectability 5. good by accepted standards 6. telling right from wrong 7. based on conviction Ethical (Encarta's full definitions because I think the expanded text is pertinent): 1. conforming to accepted standards: consistent with agreed principles of correct moral conduct. Example: While such activities are not strictly illegal, they are certainly not ethical. 2. of ethics: relating to or involving ethics 3. (pharmacology) available by prescription only: used to describe a drug that is available only through a doctor’s prescription Ethics (Encarta's summary definitions): 1. study of morality’s effect on conduct 2. code of morality Microsoft® Encarta® Reference Library 2003. © 1993-2002 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.
So as you can see, there is a difference, yet a convoluted one.
-Domenic Denicola- [CPUA 0x1337] MadHamster Creations "I was born human. But this was an accident of fate - a condition merely of time and place. I believe it's something we have the power to change..."
-
Of course! -- Scanned MSDN Mag ad with YOUR name: www.magerquark.de/misc/CodeProject.html See me: www.magerquark.de
Just a thought. Did a thought ever crossed your mind, that you have a whole lot of internal problems in Germany, that demand much more attention then saving Saddam Hussei? Such as: 4 mio. unemployed, expensive work force, high taxes, recession. Things that need to be changed. Work force need to be less protected, taxes need to be lowered, egalitarism need to be replaced by healthy competition between German people. Well, if you haven't then that's exactly what Schroeder wanted. He wanted you not to think about these problems. He wanted you to concentrate on external enemy and turn your frustations towards this enemy instead of thinking about these problems when you vote. Tomaz
-
tstih wrote: Their heads are usually full of leftist propaganda (this is especially true for my German friends which appear to me close to brainwashed, when we meet) and have no idea what they are talking about. The funny thing is they probably think the same of you; swapping appropriate words of course :) [Edit: when will I learn to spell think?]
James Sig code stolen from David Wulff
So do Iraquis, but that doesn't make them any wiser. Fact is that not only were Germans very much against the first intervention (which shows that their attitude is absolutely no news), but they did have a good chance to prove that the "Deutsche Weg" works - in Bosnia. The result of their wisdom was 200.000 slaughtered Muslims and 100.000 dead Serbs and Croats. And now they want to continue with the same. Geez. Tomaz
-
RodLima wrote: people just remember the bad ones. Most arabs in middle-east never saw the [good] americans (i mean, americans who were good to them)! They just see US policies. 1. supporting creation of Israel against Arab wishes. 2. supporting Israel with military equipment. 3. overthrowing a democratic Iranian president and replace him with Shah. 4. support Saddam to fight Khomeini 5. supporting Saudis for oil, even though most 9/11 guys were Saudi (no option, I guess) - other than get a fovaouable govt. in Iraq. etc ..... These are the things that remain in memory, because they change lives. The good deeds most often are not in the same league. I can think of Russians probably loving Gorbachev for freeing them from the communist party autocracy.
Thomas George wrote: 1. supporting creation of Israel against Arab wishes. The beloved UN did that:) Thomas George wrote: 2. supporting Israel with military equipment. Blame USSR for starting this, USA shipped weapons only in response. Thomas George wrote: 3. overthrowing a democratic Iranian president and replace him with Shah. When? Thomas George wrote: 4. support Saddam to fight Khomeini The arabs mostly supported Saddam since he is suna muslim.
-
Thomas George wrote: 1. supporting creation of Israel against Arab wishes. The beloved UN did that:) Thomas George wrote: 2. supporting Israel with military equipment. Blame USSR for starting this, USA shipped weapons only in response. Thomas George wrote: 3. overthrowing a democratic Iranian president and replace him with Shah. When? Thomas George wrote: 4. support Saddam to fight Khomeini The arabs mostly supported Saddam since he is suna muslim.
Felix Gartsman wrote: 1. supporting creation of Israel against Arab wishes. The beloved UN did that UN is US/Britain/Russia/France/China - No one took the no Israel stand of the Arabs. I am not a great fan of UN and its resolutions and their enforcement (which never takes place, unless there is some other agenda for one of the big five - usually the US). Felix Gartsman wrote: 2. supporting Israel with military equipment. Blame USSR for starting this, USA shipped weapons only in response. I will never blame Israel or Palestine for anything they do. For gods sakes, they are the ones fighting for survival. Others are just making money out of it. But, cant the UN prohibit sale of weapons to Israel and Palestine by its members? But, then how will Russia and US make money out of this? I do not believe this issue will ever be settled. There is some one or the other who will always feel victimized. I BELIEVE that Arabs would take out Israel as a whole, if they could. But, I would expect a mediator to be totally neutral without interest in either side. (like Norway mediating between SriLanka govenment and LTTE). Felix Gartsman wrote: 3. overthrowing a democratic Iranian president and replace him with Shah. When? His name was Dr. Mohammad Mossadegh. He was ELECTED Prime Minister of Iran. He nationalized Iranian oil and wanted foreign oil companies out (which would have been in Iranian interests, though not of US and Britain. but then nationalization is communist). So in a CIA and British intelligence supported coup, Shah of Iran was established as a puppet ruler in 1953. Oil in return for local power. This puppetry made a return of the Islamic regime possible (and all of us would have to live with that). How come the US believes that a democratic country run by a democratically elected communist party is worse than a capitalist autocrat? They did it in Iran in 53; in Chile in 73 (ironically on 11 September) etc. Felix Gartsman wrote: 4. support Saddam to fight Khomeini The arabs mostly supported Saddam since he is suna muslim. I am talking about US and the top five. When the Iran-Iraq war was on, Saddam was using chemical weapons and US (a signatory to the chemical weapons ban treaty) was openly supporting Iraq. Now, when he is no longer a friend, the chemical and biological weapons gain significance. US and other members of the UN is party to a treaty (from 1971, I guess
-
yep. Good point, George. I would just add that the above is just oh so shallow European leftist. Typically an angry German will use these facts, but only to criticize United States. But he will be left pointless, when asked about alternatives. For example: So what do you think, how we should handle Israel in 48? So are you saying that the world should leave Israelis to their fate? So should Americans let Iranians under Khomeini defeat Iraq? Would you prefer to have unstable Saudi Arabia and pay double for gasoline? Hell, I can be a libertarian primadonna in the same way. And critisize leftist views. I can start with critique of Soviet Union and China. But that would sound ridiculus to the other side. Because they would be on the receiving end. But when they do it they really don't think about how stupid they sound with only critique and no alternatives offered. Tomaz
Let us first get hold of what we are talking about here. Justice, Liberty, rights and democracy are the stuff that the western countries claims to be supporting. Just drop the claims and I have nothing to say. All those are just crap. They do not support anything other than their own business interests. So what do you think, how we should handle Israel in 48? No one handled Kashmir. Why should anyone handle Israel, other than Israel and Palestine? Leave it to the people to figure out. But, Britain had a responsibility. They created the mess. Why is US in the middle of this stuff? Let UN or a truly neutral party give mediation. Do not supply military equipment from one side and talk about peace on the other. Britain has caused mess everywhere they left after second world war. The should have been more discussions about transfer of power, borders, binding agreements etc., before they removed themselves from that place. Israel/Palestine and Kashmir are examples of the mess that Britain created and UN ratified. There should have been a UN ban on weapon supply to the region. UN was till fresh and people must have believed in it then. tstih wrote: So should Americans let Iranians under Khomeini defeat Iraq? Iraq attacked Iran for territory to start the war!! They deserved to be defeated. I do not belive that Iran would have run over Iraq. They would have got their territory, after they won the war. tstih wrote: Would you prefer to have unstable Saudi Arabia and pay double for gasoline? Paying double for gas is a business issue. Nothing would crumble as a result. If oil costs twice, the economy will still reach an equilibrium. Everything would be costlier, but then pay will also rise. No one would suffer that much because of a double-priced gas. And, it is certainly not sufficient reason to overthrow a democratic govt. in Iran. If that government was supported, we would have had (high priced or not) oil from a democratic country, rather than autocrats and kings. But, the western countries do not want to pay higher and make arabs economically stronger. The people who own resources have the right to price it. As GWB said, get oil from Alaska. That is better than all this manipulation stuff in the middle-east.
-
which I thought that would change witn WTC attacks. Not that I agree with that horrible act, it's far away from that. But this view is the main reason people usually hate americans. I'm talking about the others. I tend not to generalize things, there are good americans, there are bad... people just remember the bad ones.
I've found Americans to be the most wonderful people, when in America. I really mean that - they are hospitable to the point of making the guest need to pinch themselves to remember that it is not all a dream. Unfortunately (I've worked with kids there, in my crazy backpacking days) the majority of the population learn very little about the rest of the world - thus they are a nightmare when on holiday elsewhere, and a lot of them are quite ignorant of the world outside (no reason to start flaming - as I said, I like Americans). If more of their kids were taught to pick out the USA on a world map, they might become more compasionate to people living in all the other areas on the globe . The following statement about your geekness is true.
The previous statement about your geekness is false. -
I've found Americans to be the most wonderful people, when in America. I really mean that - they are hospitable to the point of making the guest need to pinch themselves to remember that it is not all a dream. Unfortunately (I've worked with kids there, in my crazy backpacking days) the majority of the population learn very little about the rest of the world - thus they are a nightmare when on holiday elsewhere, and a lot of them are quite ignorant of the world outside (no reason to start flaming - as I said, I like Americans). If more of their kids were taught to pick out the USA on a world map, they might become more compasionate to people living in all the other areas on the globe . The following statement about your geekness is true.
The previous statement about your geekness is false.Well summed up Megan. The problem is that no-one this actually applies to will ever be able to see it themselves, hence the oh-so-sterotypical (but very real) arrogance that goes with it. It's all about education. Over in this part of the world we are a hand shake away from a whole host of other countries of just about every different persuasion possible, whereas the typical US national at home is unlikely to even be able to point out Turkey or Holland on a world map, let alone Bulgaria. In itself this is no problem (I myself had difficulty pointing out Washington, USA, just the other day, knowing only that it was somewhere up towards the top). As soon as they leave their shores however, either directly or through foreign policies they export, it becomes their damned business to find out about what is going on. If I travelled to Iran I would find out about local laws, etiquette, etc, before opening my front door, and when there I would ask what to do not tell; I would not expect Iranians to do the reverse. IMHO people like that (whether American, Austrailian, French or Canadian [;)]) need a good firm slap on the back of the legs to make them sit up in class and pay attention, so to speak. One such slap occured last September and luckily was on a large enough (god bless the media and capitalist America) scale to draw very home the awareness that they need to get their f**king act together because there are people out there who feel they have a problem with them, and ignorance is not bliss anymore.
David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk
Pro wrestling is entertainment for the unentertained unentertainable.
-
I've found Americans to be the most wonderful people, when in America. I really mean that - they are hospitable to the point of making the guest need to pinch themselves to remember that it is not all a dream. Unfortunately (I've worked with kids there, in my crazy backpacking days) the majority of the population learn very little about the rest of the world - thus they are a nightmare when on holiday elsewhere, and a lot of them are quite ignorant of the world outside (no reason to start flaming - as I said, I like Americans). If more of their kids were taught to pick out the USA on a world map, they might become more compasionate to people living in all the other areas on the globe . The following statement about your geekness is true.
The previous statement about your geekness is false.Megan Forbes wrote: I've found Americans to be the most wonderful people, when in America. Agreed! ;P Megan Forbes wrote: Unfortunately (I've worked with kids there, in my crazy backpacking days) the majority of the population learn very little about the rest of the world... Also true, but this is changing slowly. Maybe due to more travel and the internet, etc... Hopefully the current world conflicts and growing anti-American sentiments don't stifle this completely. Wouldn't it be ironic if intolerance of American's intolerance eventually caused Americans to be less tolerant? :-D On the other side of the coin for anybody that has never been to the US... - Hollywood and American TV is NOT representative of the "real" US. - We are a nation of 270+ million people. Every single race, creed, color, religion and political persuasion is represented to some degree. - Our press is no better or no worse than the media in any other country. It does NOT typically represent any national beliefs. We don't believe them, so neither should you. :suss:
Mike Mullikin :beer: You can't really dust for vomit. Nigel Tufnel - Spinal Tap
-
i had this discussion with a guy recently where he was bleating on at how badly the poor taliban fighters were being treated in cuba by the americans ... having to wear hoods and being handcuffed etc ... like duh! whether its fair or not its a simple fact that everyone should know by now ... if you play soldier boy with the americans you will lose and get f**ked up in the process ... if you cant figure that out by now you really shouldnt be playing with guns and bombs and besides if you do play with guns and bombs you deserve whatever you get in return
"... and so i said to him ... if it don't dance (or code) and you can't eat it either f**k it or throw it away"
biz stuff about melauren wrote: if you play soldier boy with the americans you will lose and get f**ked up in the process I think I'll change my sig to that. It's very true though lauren. lauren wrote: besides if you do play with guns and bombs you deserve whatever you get in return Poor Dave W and his air guns... we better warn him :-) Regards, Brian Dela :-)
-
Tim Smith wrote: and had them over for tea. No, no, no. Americans don't have people around for tea, thats the Brits. Americans have people round for a brewsky or some wife swa... I mean a bbq. p.s. I still find you devilishly attractive Timothy... (Hey if you don't stop posting after this at least we know you really are a man and not a female programmer.)
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South AfricaPaul Watson wrote: I still find you devilishly attractive Timothy... (Hey if you don't stop posting after this at least we know you really are a man and not a female programmer.) I'm getting worried about you now paul. Whats the gf's email address again... I think somebody shoudl tell her about this ;-) ;-P Regards, Brian Dela :-)