Jobless IT graduate sues her college
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leckey wrote:
What college GUARANTEES any kind of a job?
Poor girl didnt learn that colleges guarantee learning, not jobs.
LOL I don't think so... They promise an education. As for learning -- You can lead a horse to water...
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I'm not sure what planet you live on, but outside of Google, Master's degrees do nothing to help job prospects outside of very narrow fields (and the scoop is that even Google is regretting that stance.)
I live on planet upper management where an MBA is a requirement for entry. Hope all is well on planet coderforlife ;)
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My initial reaction was "who cares". Unless you're a cum laude, your gpa doesn't do anything for your career prospects. Or does it? Do fresh grads with no work experience get asked about their gpa? As an employer I would want to know because it is an indicator of work ethic... (I haven't hired entry level, so I haven't been in tha position. )
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My first reaction was similar to many here, but then I read one story that pointed out that Monroe College had bragged about their placement rates and how much they did to get you a job and all that. The legal question is whether Monroe College made a contract or whether their claims constituted a contract. If they did (and I think they did), are they really liable for the graduate's tuition (that's where I'm skeptical.) This does raise a question, though, about what liability universities have for making claims and promises about job placement or even job possibilities that simply aren't true. Yes, everyone should know that colleges and universities have long way oversold the value of their services, but should they get away with their lies forever?
Joe Woodbury wrote:
My first reaction was similar to many here, but then I read one story that pointed out that Monroe College had bragged about their placement rates and how much they did to get you a job and all that...
That is my point as well. We see so much of nonsensical lawsuits like this that the knee jerk reaction is to condemn it at face value. However, the case may have merit and we should consider that a lot of details are not reported or are underreported. (The media in the U.S. loves to skew the facts of a story for their political inclinations or benefit -- i.e. ratings.) Whether there is any guarantee of placement may not be the argument. Whether they really tried to place her in the first place may be the argument. And as for the amount consider that with any negotiation you always start on the high end. I'm not saying this woman is not a flake. I'm simply saying I don't know. Nor does anyone else here.
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Pravarakhya wrote:
she would have added 150K for causing mental trauma and 150K more for loss of valuable time.
Ahhh.. the American way! ;)
jeron1 wrote:
Ahhh.. the American way!
Not my American way! ;P If I were the judge I'd make sure there was a sitcom laugh track queued up on the courtroom sounds system. I'm sure there would be many other fellow countrymen ready to take a turn on the play button, too! :laugh:
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It seems that people now accept no responsibility for anything at all. Twice, I was unemployed (due to recession), and I didn't see it as anybody's direct fault.
"WPF has many lovers. It's a veritable porn star!" - Josh Smith
As Braveheart once said, "You can take our freedom but you'll never take our Hobnobs!" - Martin Hughes.
Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
Twice, I was unemployed (due to recession), and I didn't see it as anybody's direct fault.
Recessions are invariable the fault of greedy bustards.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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Being English I sometimes really feel for Americans having for to put up with people like this -->Clickety :wtf: I mean seriously, who is going to employ her now?
Continuous effort - not strength or intelligence - is the key to unlocking our potential.(Winston Churchill)
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Being English I sometimes really feel for Americans having for to put up with people like this -->Clickety :wtf: I mean seriously, who is going to employ her now?
Continuous effort - not strength or intelligence - is the key to unlocking our potential.(Winston Churchill)
As soon as I read the headline yesterday, I knew she had to be from NY. Being from NY myself I know how everyone thinks the solution to all of their problems is to sue someone. It's also the only place where a judge will allow such a stupid law suit to go to court.
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I live on planet upper management where an MBA is a requirement for entry. Hope all is well on planet coderforlife ;)
Isfeasachme wrote:
Hope all is well on planet coderforlife
Yep, I get to play with cool new things, mostly for inhouse use and future products. Also I've had no direct underlings since the last interns which means I don't have to get in early and rip my hair out! :)
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I live on planet upper management where an MBA is a requirement for entry. Hope all is well on planet coderforlife ;)
Oh, you live on planet Clueless Asshole? :) :)
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I read this earlier myself and said to myself, "WTF?" What college GUARANTEES any kind of a job? Let's face it, she hasn't found her perfect dream job. It says nothing if she has looked for something similar or even a lower wage paying job for the meantime.
Back in the blog beatch! http://CraptasticNation.blogspot.com/[^]
ITT Technical Institute does! I see it on my TV every day. "At ITT Technical Institutes, we are committed to helping men and women develop the skills and knowledge to pursue many opportunities in today's fastest growing career fields, including electronics, web development, computer programming,computer networking, computer drafting and design, criminal justice, business and health sciences" Most people go to college with the idea that the education you receive is going to get you a well paying job at the end. Otherwise why piss away tens of thousands of dollars? A lot of educational institutions oversell their ability to get you a job if you attend their institution and they are the masters of bait and switch. "Our counselor might have told you that you would get a job as a result of graduating from our institution but we never actually guaranteed it."
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GuyThiebaut wrote:
I mean seriously, who is going to employ her now?
Monroe College?
Where it seems there are only borderlines, Where others turn and sigh, You shall rise!
I was unemployed for 4 months after I graduated...can I recoup that money!!!
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The judge should award her the 70k if the agrees to give the education back... Or at least get rid of it. Lobotomy time!
Good point - but considering that she now has demolished any chance she ever had of getting a job in the IT industry, maybe she's already had someone "... cut into her brain some ..."
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Well, it should. If a college doesn't guarantee learning, better not to join it :) .
How can a college guarantee what is entirely under the control of the student? Not everyone who goes to college has any intention of learning anything - as I have seen demonstrated multiple times. The college can guarantee teaching - but not learning!
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Being English I sometimes really feel for Americans having for to put up with people like this -->Clickety :wtf: I mean seriously, who is going to employ her now?
Continuous effort - not strength or intelligence - is the key to unlocking our potential.(Winston Churchill)
On one hand the lawsuit is ridiculous and she probably didn't try that hard to find a job. Nor should a university be required to find you a job, especially since it has no control over the economy. But on the other hand, it's been my experience that universities(in america anyway) are far too quick to promise fame and fortune to prospective students. College has become a big money making business in this country(you can just send them a check now and do it all over the internet so they don't have to go to all the bother of actually hiring professors), and most universities I've encountered are far more interested in selling you a degree than they are concerned about whether or not you have any chance of finding a job. Some rich kids might just be there for 'enlightenment' but most of go there assuming we can make some money afterward, and I think a lot of universities do a poor(or nonexistent) job of advising students about the current market. Honestly I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't help that girl find a job; it's not really in their best interest to help her, they already have her money. If she CAN'T find a job maybe she'll need to come back for a masters...
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ITT Technical Institute does! I see it on my TV every day. "At ITT Technical Institutes, we are committed to helping men and women develop the skills and knowledge to pursue many opportunities in today's fastest growing career fields, including electronics, web development, computer programming,computer networking, computer drafting and design, criminal justice, business and health sciences" Most people go to college with the idea that the education you receive is going to get you a well paying job at the end. Otherwise why piss away tens of thousands of dollars? A lot of educational institutions oversell their ability to get you a job if you attend their institution and they are the masters of bait and switch. "Our counselor might have told you that you would get a job as a result of graduating from our institution but we never actually guaranteed it."
dwieneke wrote:
we are committed to helping men and women develop the skills and knowledge to pursue many opportunities in today's fastest growing career fields
"We are committed to helping ..." - not enforced learning, not teaching by direct injection: there is an implication of effort on the part of the student. "develop the skills and knowledge to pursue many opportunities ..." - There is no guarantee of employment here, rather, ITT promises to provide a means for a student to gain the knowledge and skills (both technical and interpersonal - i.e. job-hunting) to go out and pursue a job in the chosen field. If the attitude displayed by the student during that pursuit looks anything like the moron in the article, it would be apparent that the student had failed to assimilate the information offered, and thus her pursuit is destined to fail. Sure, an education is undertaken with the intent to get a well-paying job - but no college can guarantee that you will get a job within three months during these economic times... and (not to be too insulting) if a person is so stupid as to think that a job actually is guaranteed under those circumstances, then they lack the native intelligence to do well in IT, anyway - possibly another factor in this woman's failure to get a job???
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In a string of related stories, a Vermont man sues his washing machine for not automatically doing his laundry, a Florida woman sues McDonalds when her food goes bad, days after purchase, and a New Mexico teen sues his willy for not getting laid. @guy -- let's not make this about America shall we? It's not like the UK doesn't have it's share of festering tits. Political and personal freedom mixed with comfortable levels of survivability breed entitlement in the bottom percentage of intellects no matter where you live.
Isfeasachme wrote:
let's not make this about America shall we?
Fair point, I think what I was trying to get across is that as a generalisation litigation is much more prevalent in the USA than European countries in my experience - I would be interested in knowing if I am correct why this is particularly the case in the USA.
Continuous effort - not strength or intelligence - is the key to unlocking our potential.(Winston Churchill)
modified on Tuesday, August 4, 2009 2:47 PM
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dwieneke wrote:
we are committed to helping men and women develop the skills and knowledge to pursue many opportunities in today's fastest growing career fields
"We are committed to helping ..." - not enforced learning, not teaching by direct injection: there is an implication of effort on the part of the student. "develop the skills and knowledge to pursue many opportunities ..." - There is no guarantee of employment here, rather, ITT promises to provide a means for a student to gain the knowledge and skills (both technical and interpersonal - i.e. job-hunting) to go out and pursue a job in the chosen field. If the attitude displayed by the student during that pursuit looks anything like the moron in the article, it would be apparent that the student had failed to assimilate the information offered, and thus her pursuit is destined to fail. Sure, an education is undertaken with the intent to get a well-paying job - but no college can guarantee that you will get a job within three months during these economic times... and (not to be too insulting) if a person is so stupid as to think that a job actually is guaranteed under those circumstances, then they lack the native intelligence to do well in IT, anyway - possibly another factor in this woman's failure to get a job???
W.C. Fields said it best "There's a sucker born every minute, and two to trim them". There are a lot of "universities" that want nothing more than to sign you up for financial aid and then march you out the back door with nothing. They will fill out the aid forms for you if you cannot write. If she had no talent for IT, then the college faculty was ethically obligated to inform her of the fact and direct her elsewhere instead of scamming her along for four or more years. I have nothing against higher education, I have three degrees myself, education, computer science, and a Master's in information security. I have seen people who had no talent for IT pushed along with the hope that "they may get it". They graduated with a degree but were only fit for mopping floors.
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W.C. Fields said it best "There's a sucker born every minute, and two to trim them". There are a lot of "universities" that want nothing more than to sign you up for financial aid and then march you out the back door with nothing. They will fill out the aid forms for you if you cannot write. If she had no talent for IT, then the college faculty was ethically obligated to inform her of the fact and direct her elsewhere instead of scamming her along for four or more years. I have nothing against higher education, I have three degrees myself, education, computer science, and a Master's in information security. I have seen people who had no talent for IT pushed along with the hope that "they may get it". They graduated with a degree but were only fit for mopping floors.
I'll agree with the ethical obligation, presuming that they recognized a significant lack of talent. In some cases, however, people are good at testing, but when faced with real-life application, fail miserably. She may also have had genuine talent for IT, but such horrendous "people skills" that whe was unlikely to ever get a job outside the fast-food industry - these are things we just can't know. I have nothing aginst - nor particularly for - higher education. I learned aviation electronics from the Navy, then got a one-year certificate in Computer Repair from a local Technical Colege - and that is the extent of my "formal" education. Other than that, I am a self-taught VB & C# programmer. I do think a more formal education would have helped, but it was my personal desire to learn that made the difference.
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Being English I sometimes really feel for Americans having for to put up with people like this -->Clickety :wtf: I mean seriously, who is going to employ her now?
Continuous effort - not strength or intelligence - is the key to unlocking our potential.(Winston Churchill)
Actually, her case may have some merit. I see all too often many colleges promising an excellent career after graduation and that they will make sure you get that job after you have paid their college 80K in tuition fees and other funds which they happily take all the way to the bank. If someone invests that kind of money and 3 or 4 years of their time into something in which a specific result was promised, and you don't get that result, then yes, something needs to be done to re-establish good faith. In this case, it's the reimbursement of her tuition. She should also sue for attorneys fees as well. This issue of promising great jobs/careers after graduation by colleges have been a horribly practiced selling point for years and maybe it's time it goes away, unless they dare suffer the consequences when such a promise doesn't work out. Yea, you all laugh at her but maybe you should take a second glance at what this college does to sell its degrees to people.