US middle east relations
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Reverend Stan wrote: To virtually every European ..., the U.S. represents an equal but opposite evil to that which the USSR represented. ... They view themselves as representative of a happy middle ground between the extremes of Soviet communism and American capitalism. And they view any opposition to American hegemony as being prefectly justified. In other words, people are being taught (brainwashed) to believe that we represent a threat to their welfare. This is a pervasive and growing international attitude. I am sorry, I simply disagree with this. It is difficult to crystalise down a diverse range of culture as exists in Europe to one single point of view. Many here in the UK view the US as our closest ally and the level of US investment here means that our welfare has improved, not declined, if any. As the recent German elections show, often US policies can be slated in order to gain political mileage and mask the real issues here which include low productivity growth, poor economic performance and the lack of political will to put in place structural changes to change this (the *real* threat to our welfare). Don't believe what is said by politicans and certainly don't believe what is reported by the press. After all, pro-US sentiment in Europe will hardly make the news will it? There is a much more positive feeling for the US here in the EU than I think is commonly believed. Our social and economic policies just seem to differ. www.beachwizard.com/travelogue[^] "I spent a lot of my money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I just squandered" George Best.
Well said.
David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk
Pro wrestling is entertainment for the unentertained unentertainable.
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Brian Azzopardi wrote: I knew you were gonna say this. You are accusing me of being an anti-semite yet you don't know me. Were did I say that all Jews should be killed? Anti-semitism isn't desire to kill jews, I'm sure you dont. It is viewing jews as conspiracy plotters, use of innocent people for their evil ideas, etc... Murder is extreme view rarely found today, but suspicious treatment is wide. Today local paper http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=214129&contrassID=2&subContrassID=1&sbSubContrassID=0[^] published how UK TV shows Israel, no one suggested murder, but the description of Jerusalem clearly speaks for itself. Brian Azzopardi wrote: Was there or not a massacre in Beirut in the 80's? Sure it was, but not by Israel. Brian Azzopardi wrote: As for european self-hatred: what does that have to do with it? Europeans massacred so many in Africa, so they think everyone does it. European sympaty to suffering twist their mind. Brian Azzopardi wrote: How much are the new settlements in the Gaza strip going for? I'm interested in one you see If you like mortar rounds instead of alarm clock, you can get one cheap:) Settlements are wrong, but not from the reasons you think.
"[Pilger] effectively accuses Jewish people of conspiring to manipulate the non-Jewish world into believing that any criticism of Israel is anti-Semitism." He has a very valid point. Just as criticism of anything related to the U.S.A. is obviously anti-American, anything that criticises Israel, Jews, or anything related to them is obviously anti-semitism. Just as those who cry racist are usually racists, those that cry wolf are usually lying. To repeat from yesterdays conversations: "I get really fed up when people use what has happened to the Jews in the past centuary as an excuse to somehow say "they are good" or "I feel sorry for them" (or essentually "the sun shines out of their arses"). Fact of the matter number three, if it wasn't Jews it would be another group of people." The fact Israel is a largely Jewish state does not mean a monkey's tick should the circumstances be the same. Of course though the circumstances would never be the same any other way. Felix Gartsman wrote: Today local paper published how UK TV shows Israel, no one suggested murder, but the description of Jerusalem clearly speaks for itself. Prey did your unbiased local newspaper also mention the dozen or so other documentaries aired these past months that potrayed the opposite viewpoint, or the other dozen or so that potrayed both sides of the mess? If anything there needs to be many more programmes like Pilger's to even out the scales from all the pro-Israeli crap we get.
David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk
Pro wrestling is entertainment for the unentertained unentertainable.
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...people in the bar realised I was English, I was told to leave in no uncertain terms No wonder. If you English would simply end the illegal occupation of Northern Ireland, those same people would likely buy you a pint.
Ed Gadziemski wrote: No wonder. If you English would simply end the illegal occupation of Northern Ireland, those same people would likely buy you a pint. Wise up. I suspect that if you did a poll of the general population of the rest of the UK you'd find that most don't particularly want Northern Ireland to be part of the UK. I very much suspect (from my visits to the Irish Republic) the same is true there. If the UK were to pull out of NI now, the result would likely be a huge mess. Personally, I'd rather see it independant, but while current animosities persist that's not likely to be feasible (even ignoring the economic problems there). Anna :rose: "Be yourself - not what others think you should be"
- Marcia Graesch -
You and I belong to the same generation, Michael. I'm not quite sure what you are trying to suggest, but the USSR was the single most evil political system that has ever existed in human history. That was not a product of "paranoia" it was as real as NAZIism and even more dangerous. Our defense of the world against it was completely justified. We had to do so unconventionally due to the existence of nuclear weapons. We may have made mistakes but we successfully performed our duty to the world by our defeat of that system in a way that was far more peaceful, and saved far more lives, than could have been hoped for by any other strategy. To the extent our establishment of the Shah in Iran helped that effort than it was the right thing to do. I personally do not believe that Israel played any large roll in our grand strategy against the USSR. I am afraid that I would have to agree with the average Muslim that our support of Israel has more to do with the influence of the varioius Jewish political organizations on our government than on any military need. It is the same reason we continue to treat Cuba as we do (not that I lose any love for Cuba - or Israel for that matter). I spent most of the 70's and 80's training to fight the "Soviet War Machine", so I have a good idea of what it was capable of. One mission we trained on most carefully was the application of tactical nuclear weapons in a way to minimize the danger of fallout to civilian populations. Whether they wish to accept it or not, every European living today owes their life and their liberty to the wisdom of the U.S. political system. I'm not a real reverend, I just play one on CP.
Reverend Stan wrote: That was not a product of "paranoia" it was as real as NAZIism and even more dangerous I disagree with the "even more" (not the "dangerous"). There's a main difference between Nazism and Communism: Nazism is fondamentally based on racial differences: the WWII, the Shoah, the extermination of Tzigans (to cite a few) were the direct consequences of the theories expressed in "Mein Kampf", evil was in the theory. The purpose of Communism was the happiness of the Humanity, not only of a part of it, that's why so many believed in it. The Goulag was IMHO not a consequence of Marx's Capital, but of the russian pre-revolutionnary History. Reverend Stan wrote: Our defense of the world against it was completely justified Try to explain that to a chilian, for example! Few episodes of cold war are not glittering. Reverend Stan wrote: Israel has more to do with the influence of the varioius Jewish political organizations on our government than on any military need Is it also possible there's a more "psychanalitic" explanation? Is it possible there's in the USA a collective culpability feeling about Shoah, because of the attitude of USA before and during WWII, refusing to help the jewish people trying to escape Europe or to bomb the railroads to extermination camps ? Reverend Stan wrote: every European living today owes their life and their liberty to the wisdom of the U.S. political system Globally I agree on this one. About France, it's mainly true for the period 1945-1960, till the country accessed to nuclear weapons technology. So I came to find To end up this way Feeling like I'm God Feeling there's no way KoRn
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To virtually every European and many on the American left, the U.S. represents an equal but opposite evil to that which the USSR represented. Awwww Stan - why'd you have to go and ruin an otherwise effective argument with such a facile comment? This is rubbish. I know many people on the left but I don't know anyone who thinks this. Sure, many people in the UK are currently expressing hostility to the US stance on the Middle East, but that doesn't mean they think the US is evil. Their main beef is that President Blair will tag along regardless of puplic opinion, which is a justified concern in any democracy.
Faith. Believing in something you *know* isn't true.
Facile? Perhaps. But it probably has more to do with wishful thinking. If we are hated by social welfare states, we must be doing something right.;P I'm not a real reverend, I just play one on CP.
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I hope that was sarcasm &| irony -- Help me! I'm turning into a grapefruit!
Of course. Who on earth would want a pint of American beer? :)
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Ed Gadziemski wrote: illegal occupation of Northern Ireland Who said it's illegal*? Is territory gained in war illegally occupied? If it is what do you propose? Redrawing the map of the whole world? Brian Azzopardi *Apart from the Irish ofcourse :) bibamus, edamus, cras moriemur
[eat, drink, for tomorrow we die]
Is territory gained in war illegally occupied? Guess that depends on who's doing the occupying. If it's US or UK, then apparently no. If it's Iraq or Argentina, then apparently yes.
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If only it were that simple eh Ed? If you honestly think that the UK simply handing the 6 counties back to the Republic would solve the problem then you're living on another planet. You'd still be left with about half of the population hating the situation. Don't get me wrong - I'm no big fan of Unionism but while you have a population so divided (and so close in numbers - something like 55% unionists, 45% republican), there will never be a straightforward solution. Actually, this comment brings us nearly back to the original discussion. I could just as well say that "If you Americans would simply end your unqualifying support for Israel, those islamic fundamentalists would stop hating you", etc. Of course, it isn't that simple is it?
Faith. Believing in something you *know* isn't true.
It is rarely simple. That's why a devil's advocate or two is required. Otherwise, people might not consider the other side's point of view.
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Ed Gadziemski wrote: No wonder. If you English would simply end the illegal occupation of Northern Ireland, those same people would likely buy you a pint. Wise up. I suspect that if you did a poll of the general population of the rest of the UK you'd find that most don't particularly want Northern Ireland to be part of the UK. I very much suspect (from my visits to the Irish Republic) the same is true there. If the UK were to pull out of NI now, the result would likely be a huge mess. Personally, I'd rather see it independant, but while current animosities persist that's not likely to be feasible (even ignoring the economic problems there). Anna :rose: "Be yourself - not what others think you should be"
- Marcia GraeschI'd rather see it independant, but while current animosities persist that's not likely to be feasible The US and the USSR have stopped being overt enemies as have the UK and Germany. Christianity and Judaism have reached a truce. Perhaps it will be possible in NI for the Catholics and Protestants to get along someday. Maybe after the English get out and they have to reach an accommodation with each other or die trying.
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I'd rather see it independant, but while current animosities persist that's not likely to be feasible The US and the USSR have stopped being overt enemies as have the UK and Germany. Christianity and Judaism have reached a truce. Perhaps it will be possible in NI for the Catholics and Protestants to get along someday. Maybe after the English get out and they have to reach an accommodation with each other or die trying.
Ed Gadziemski wrote: The US and the USSR have stopped being overt enemies as have the UK and Germany. Christianity and Judaism have reached a truce. Perhaps it will be possible in NI for the Catholics and Protestants to get along someday. Maybe after the English get out and they have to reach an accommodation with each other or die trying. True, to an extent. The big problem in Northern Ireland is there still too many (mainly in the older generation I expect) with an interest in spreading hatred. IMHO The Revd. Ian Paisley is the worst offender - why that man has been allowed to stay in the Church is beyond me. His creed is hatred, not love. In the longer term the hope lies as always with the younger generation and the education system. Sadly, old attitudes can oh so easily affect the young, so I don't expect a full resolution for at least another 20-30 years. :(( As for "...the English get out..." - be realistic. Firstly, Scots and Welsh regiments are also deployed in Northern Ireland, and secondly what government would run the risk of a bloodbath if they did pull out the troops? It won't happen until the society in Northern Ireland has healed. Don't underestimate the hatred that's still in that small country - and don't believe that it's got anything to do with religion anymore. It's about people within communities who distrust or hate those who are brought up differently. I suspect that in the event of a troop withdrawl the Loyalist terrorists would be the first to start trouble - they've been quiet for a while, but they're still there - and probably as bad or worse than their Republican counterparts. Sadly, peace can only come when all are ready for it and the terrorists are ostracised as the criminals they are. Anna :rose: "Be yourself - not what others think you should be"
- Marcia Graesch -
Ed Gadziemski wrote: illegal occupation of Northern Ireland Who said it's illegal*? Is territory gained in war illegally occupied? If it is what do you propose? Redrawing the map of the whole world? Brian Azzopardi *Apart from the Irish ofcourse :) bibamus, edamus, cras moriemur
[eat, drink, for tomorrow we die]
Brian Azzopardi wrote: Is territory gained in war illegally occupied? It wasn't a war. It was an occupation. Regards, Brian Dela :suss: