US middle east relations
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Michael A. Barnhart wrote: I am not saying it was a product of paranoia. But in the post WWII era the west was paranoid about communism. Justification is not the issue here. But isn't paranoia without justification simply a dillusional condition? I will confess to being a bit sensitive to the suggestion that our opposition to communism was in any way an overreaction. Michael A. Barnhart wrote: It may not have been part of our grand strategy but our support was directly due to our concern for the stability of the region becoming communist. If so, I would certainly rate it as one of our rather more obvious miscalculations. Still, if it did help, than I'm comfortable with it. Michael A. Barnhart wrote: What I am trying to convey is the fact that many decisions made in the late 40's to mid 60's and even into the 80's was to attack communism. Not against the people caught in the middle. Most on this list I do not believe appreciate that fact and due to that why the US made many decisions that now seem bad. We certainly agree on that. However, I think the problem goes much deeper than simply a failure to appreciate reality. To virtually every European and many on the American left, the U.S. represents an equal but opposite evil to that which the USSR represented. As long as the USSR existed the two evils cancelled each other out. They view themselves as representative of a happy middle ground between the extremes of Soviet communism and American capitalism. And they view any opposition to American hegemony as being prefectly justified. In other words, people are being taught (brainwashed) to believe that we represent a threat to their welfare. This is a pervasive and growing international attitude. I'm not a real reverend, I just play one on CP.
Reverend Stan wrote: However, I think the problem goes much deeper than simply a failure to appreciate reality. To virtually every European and many on the American left, the U.S. represents an equal but opposite evil to that which the USSR represented. As a 30-something native of the UK I take issue with that in the strongest possible terms. Personally I dodn't know anyone as deluded as you suggest, either at the time I was becoming aware of world events (1980s) or since. Sure, I may not like parts of US/Western Culture (ok, MacDonalds and the greed culture that pervades our society) but that doesn't mean I hate the US! Get real. At school (History "O" level) I studied the postwar era and am very aware of the part the US played in the recovery of Europe. I'm also aware of the screw-ups Western nations (US and UK included) have made in other parts of the word since. We're no angels either. We have a huge amount to thank you for, but that doesn't mean we have to agree with all your policies. Go in peace, Anna :rose: "Be yourself - not what others think you should be"
- Marcia Graesch -
Reverend Stan wrote: You counter any kind of anti-Jewish comment with an implied charge of anti-semitism. In the same way that a relatively small but well organized Cuban population influences our polocies towards Cuba, a small but well organized Jewish population influences our policies towards Israel. Influence? Sure. Everybody does it. But talking as it forces US to act against its interests, is different.
Felix Gartsman wrote: Influence? Sure. Everybody does it. But talking as it forces US to act against its interests, is different But that's the whole point! It is in America's interest to open up to Cuba yet an influential Cuban minority support the opposing view. The same goes for every other pressure group including the Jewish lobby. Giving such explicit and generous support to Israel, yet at the same time stationing American troops on Arab Holy Land (Saudi Arabia) is bad foreign policy from the purely American point of view. America would do itself a huge favour if it was seen as neutal in the Mid-East. But the Jewish lobby will make sure this does not happen. If you seriously and honestly believe that America declaring that Ariel Sharon is a "man of piece" is in it's own interest than you are living in cuckoo-land. Brian Azzopardi bibamus, edamus, cras moriemur
[eat, drink, for tomorrow we die]
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IT has been a number of years but I remember the group called "Feinian Brotherhood" actually underwrote the development and had plans to smuggle the first subs to Ireland. (This was the late 1800's) "If I won't be myself, who will?" Alfred Hitchcock
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I fully understand that, n.p. When I was maybe 10, and I saw the first picture of Regean, I wondered how this evil man could be smiling. I know this doesn't justify anything, but those who vanished usually knew very well what they did. Michael A. Barnhart wrote: what would they do to others Nothing they wouldn't do to their own people, I suppose... This didn't matter much.
Auch den Schatten will ich lieben weil ich manchmal lieber frier' Rosenstolz [sighist]
peterchen wrote: I know this doesn't justify anything, but those who vanished usually knew very well what they did. Well my specific case was a Doctor who was trying to develop a cure for a plague that was being carried by rats. Really a threat to the state. "If I won't be myself, who will?" Alfred Hitchcock
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peterchen wrote: The problem I see is that it's still the same game: todays friend is tomorrows enemy. Short-sighted, short-lived alliances. You are missing my point, what started this. The war against communism. That was not short-sighted or short-lived. But do to that some alliances were created to fight a greater evil, it was a decision to be made in that time and has to be looked at in that time frame, not todays, which is the common error I see many making. "If I won't be myself, who will?" Alfred Hitchcock
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Felix Gartsman wrote: Influence? Sure. Everybody does it. But talking as it forces US to act against its interests, is different But that's the whole point! It is in America's interest to open up to Cuba yet an influential Cuban minority support the opposing view. The same goes for every other pressure group including the Jewish lobby. Giving such explicit and generous support to Israel, yet at the same time stationing American troops on Arab Holy Land (Saudi Arabia) is bad foreign policy from the purely American point of view. America would do itself a huge favour if it was seen as neutal in the Mid-East. But the Jewish lobby will make sure this does not happen. If you seriously and honestly believe that America declaring that Ariel Sharon is a "man of piece" is in it's own interest than you are living in cuckoo-land. Brian Azzopardi bibamus, edamus, cras moriemur
[eat, drink, for tomorrow we die]
Brian Azzopardi wrote: If you seriously and honestly believe that America declaring that Ariel Sharon is a "man of piece" is in it's own interest than you are living in cuckoo-land. I wish:) It's probaby more fun there. It is american interest to have good ties with Israel, criticizing Israel PM wont do any good. ME is different than Europe, the rules are different. Usually everything is against logic. For example, in the west rumsfeld ignores german minister to show chilly relations. Here every arab leader can hardly stop kissing Saddam, it means he is doomed. I blame the heat for all troubles, it is over 35 degrees now!
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Felix Gartsman wrote: Influence? Sure. Everybody does it. But talking as it forces US to act against its interests, is different But that's the whole point! It is in America's interest to open up to Cuba yet an influential Cuban minority support the opposing view. The same goes for every other pressure group including the Jewish lobby. Giving such explicit and generous support to Israel, yet at the same time stationing American troops on Arab Holy Land (Saudi Arabia) is bad foreign policy from the purely American point of view. America would do itself a huge favour if it was seen as neutal in the Mid-East. But the Jewish lobby will make sure this does not happen. If you seriously and honestly believe that America declaring that Ariel Sharon is a "man of piece" is in it's own interest than you are living in cuckoo-land. Brian Azzopardi bibamus, edamus, cras moriemur
[eat, drink, for tomorrow we die]
Brian Azzopardi wrote: than you are living in cuckoo-land. I think that sums up the world right now pretty well. No matter what side you think you are on:) Cheers. "If I won't be myself, who will?" Alfred Hitchcock
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Brian Azzopardi wrote: If you seriously and honestly believe that America declaring that Ariel Sharon is a "man of piece" is in it's own interest than you are living in cuckoo-land. I wish:) It's probaby more fun there. It is american interest to have good ties with Israel, criticizing Israel PM wont do any good. ME is different than Europe, the rules are different. Usually everything is against logic. For example, in the west rumsfeld ignores german minister to show chilly relations. Here every arab leader can hardly stop kissing Saddam, it means he is doomed. I blame the heat for all troubles, it is over 35 degrees now!
Felix Gartsman wrote: I blame the heat for all troubles, it is over 35 degrees now! Good point. It was 92 here yesterday, 35 seems awfully cold, humm I wonder if we are talking the same language? Now which is more difficult. Getting everyone to use the same units or endorse the same policies? "If I won't be myself, who will?" Alfred Hitchcock
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agreed, but the choice of allies looks to me as short-sighted as ever.
Auch den Schatten will ich lieben weil ich manchmal lieber frier' Rosenstolz [sighist]
I hear you. How do we break the cycle? Take care and thanks for the polite conversation. "If I won't be myself, who will?" Alfred Hitchcock
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Michael A. Barnhart wrote: I am not saying it was a product of paranoia. But in the post WWII era the west was paranoid about communism. Justification is not the issue here. But isn't paranoia without justification simply a dillusional condition? I will confess to being a bit sensitive to the suggestion that our opposition to communism was in any way an overreaction. Michael A. Barnhart wrote: It may not have been part of our grand strategy but our support was directly due to our concern for the stability of the region becoming communist. If so, I would certainly rate it as one of our rather more obvious miscalculations. Still, if it did help, than I'm comfortable with it. Michael A. Barnhart wrote: What I am trying to convey is the fact that many decisions made in the late 40's to mid 60's and even into the 80's was to attack communism. Not against the people caught in the middle. Most on this list I do not believe appreciate that fact and due to that why the US made many decisions that now seem bad. We certainly agree on that. However, I think the problem goes much deeper than simply a failure to appreciate reality. To virtually every European and many on the American left, the U.S. represents an equal but opposite evil to that which the USSR represented. As long as the USSR existed the two evils cancelled each other out. They view themselves as representative of a happy middle ground between the extremes of Soviet communism and American capitalism. And they view any opposition to American hegemony as being prefectly justified. In other words, people are being taught (brainwashed) to believe that we represent a threat to their welfare. This is a pervasive and growing international attitude. I'm not a real reverend, I just play one on CP.
To virtually every European and many on the American left, the U.S. represents an equal but opposite evil to that which the USSR represented. Awwww Stan - why'd you have to go and ruin an otherwise effective argument with such a facile comment? This is rubbish. I know many people on the left but I don't know anyone who thinks this. Sure, many people in the UK are currently expressing hostility to the US stance on the Middle East, but that doesn't mean they think the US is evil. Their main beef is that President Blair will tag along regardless of puplic opinion, which is a justified concern in any democracy.
Faith. Believing in something you *know* isn't true.
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Felix Gartsman wrote: I blame the heat for all troubles, it is over 35 degrees now! Good point. It was 92 here yesterday, 35 seems awfully cold, humm I wonder if we are talking the same language? Now which is more difficult. Getting everyone to use the same units or endorse the same policies? "If I won't be myself, who will?" Alfred Hitchcock
probably a centigrade / farenheit difference? ;) The following statement about your geekness is true.
The previous statement about your geekness is false. -
One good thing that seems to have emerged from the aftermath of 9/11 is that the Real IRA have been VERY quiet indeed. Let's hope it stays that way eh? Also, I think that many more Americans are now aware of what it means to live with the daily threat of terrorism - which will hopefully see any US support for the IRA dwindle. Funnily enough, the only time I have ever felt any animosity when abroad (and I'm well travelled) was in an Irish bar in NYC about 10 years ago. Someone actually came round with a collecting tin to help fund the Irish "freedom fighters". As soon as I opened my mouth and the people in the bar realised I was English, I was told to leave in no uncertain terms. It was actually quite scary.
Faith. Believing in something you *know* isn't true.
...people in the bar realised I was English, I was told to leave in no uncertain terms No wonder. If you English would simply end the illegal occupation of Northern Ireland, those same people would likely buy you a pint.
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...people in the bar realised I was English, I was told to leave in no uncertain terms No wonder. If you English would simply end the illegal occupation of Northern Ireland, those same people would likely buy you a pint.
I hope that was sarcasm &| irony -- Help me! I'm turning into a grapefruit!
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...people in the bar realised I was English, I was told to leave in no uncertain terms No wonder. If you English would simply end the illegal occupation of Northern Ireland, those same people would likely buy you a pint.
Ed Gadziemski wrote: illegal occupation of Northern Ireland Who said it's illegal*? Is territory gained in war illegally occupied? If it is what do you propose? Redrawing the map of the whole world? Brian Azzopardi *Apart from the Irish ofcourse :) bibamus, edamus, cras moriemur
[eat, drink, for tomorrow we die]
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To virtually every European and many on the American left, the U.S. represents an equal but opposite evil to that which the USSR represented. Awwww Stan - why'd you have to go and ruin an otherwise effective argument with such a facile comment? This is rubbish. I know many people on the left but I don't know anyone who thinks this. Sure, many people in the UK are currently expressing hostility to the US stance on the Middle East, but that doesn't mean they think the US is evil. Their main beef is that President Blair will tag along regardless of puplic opinion, which is a justified concern in any democracy.
Faith. Believing in something you *know* isn't true.
I agree with what you said except this: Robert Edward Caldecott wrote: I don't know anyone who thinks this I know for a fact that the serried ranks of The Guardian and New Statesman hacks and John Pilger (he's australian) think that America is nothing but evil. Oh and Noam Chomsky is a royal pain in the arse too. And so is Susan Sonntag. I know for a fact that Pilger thinks that the USSR and America are morally equivalent, nay, he thinks America is worse. Frankly, I'd love to beat the little shit up, he's way past reasonable debate. Brian Azzopardi bibamus, edamus, cras moriemur
[eat, drink, for tomorrow we die]
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...people in the bar realised I was English, I was told to leave in no uncertain terms No wonder. If you English would simply end the illegal occupation of Northern Ireland, those same people would likely buy you a pint.
If only it were that simple eh Ed? If you honestly think that the UK simply handing the 6 counties back to the Republic would solve the problem then you're living on another planet. You'd still be left with about half of the population hating the situation. Don't get me wrong - I'm no big fan of Unionism but while you have a population so divided (and so close in numbers - something like 55% unionists, 45% republican), there will never be a straightforward solution. Actually, this comment brings us nearly back to the original discussion. I could just as well say that "If you Americans would simply end your unqualifying support for Israel, those islamic fundamentalists would stop hating you", etc. Of course, it isn't that simple is it?
Faith. Believing in something you *know* isn't true.
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I agree with what you said except this: Robert Edward Caldecott wrote: I don't know anyone who thinks this I know for a fact that the serried ranks of The Guardian and New Statesman hacks and John Pilger (he's australian) think that America is nothing but evil. Oh and Noam Chomsky is a royal pain in the arse too. And so is Susan Sonntag. I know for a fact that Pilger thinks that the USSR and America are morally equivalent, nay, he thinks America is worse. Frankly, I'd love to beat the little shit up, he's way past reasonable debate. Brian Azzopardi bibamus, edamus, cras moriemur
[eat, drink, for tomorrow we die]
as long as we're making broad statements based on the behavior of the extremes, let's not forget the whole far-right Neo-Nazi, black helicopter klan who are murderously mad at the way the US handles itself and are willing to blow up or simply murder people to prove it. -c
All you have to do is tell the people they are being attacked, and denounce the opposition for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. -- Herman Goering
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I agree with what you said except this: Robert Edward Caldecott wrote: I don't know anyone who thinks this I know for a fact that the serried ranks of The Guardian and New Statesman hacks and John Pilger (he's australian) think that America is nothing but evil. Oh and Noam Chomsky is a royal pain in the arse too. And so is Susan Sonntag. I know for a fact that Pilger thinks that the USSR and America are morally equivalent, nay, he thinks America is worse. Frankly, I'd love to beat the little shit up, he's way past reasonable debate. Brian Azzopardi bibamus, edamus, cras moriemur
[eat, drink, for tomorrow we die]
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Felix Gartsman wrote: I blame the heat for all troubles, it is over 35 degrees now! Good point. It was 92 here yesterday, 35 seems awfully cold, humm I wonder if we are talking the same language? Now which is more difficult. Getting everyone to use the same units or endorse the same policies? "If I won't be myself, who will?" Alfred Hitchcock
Michael A. Barnhart wrote: Good point. It was 92 here yesterday, 35 seems awfully cold, humm I wonder if we are talking the same language? 35 celsius, over 100 farenheit.
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I certainly never said that. But I will say this, I have nver received any sort of official political indoctrination - from the military or otherwise. My opinions a based purely upon examing a wide range of sources of information and drawing conclusions on my own. I owe my liberty exclusively to the capitalistic economic system and I am an enemy of any other system. I'm not a real reverend, I just play one on CP.
Hi Anyone who does not live in the US knows that the US is a bunch of manipulaters. The only reason they have interests in the Middle East is because of oil, so they will militarise everyone who tries to come near it, even innocent civilians (??). They don't have any interest in Zimbabwe (where more injustice is being done) so they leave the country alone (one good thing for Zim). I feel sorry for everyone (innocent) who had loss in 9/11, but I feel just as sorry for everyone (innocent) that was killed in America's "revenge". And if you talk to any american, they will tell you how bad the Middle East folks are, 9/11 included. They'll probably not tell you about how the US bomb the poor people back there all the last few years, most likely because they don't know or are brainwashed to think that it was justice or something. We had the same thing here in SA, all the years our parents were told that the black people were commies and wanted to destroy us, even though they were just upset because the police took some of their parents and children who they never saw again, and in anyway just trying to make a living. Just like I think most of us here in SA can see things in colour again (nice pun) i think americans and probably Toby Blair's guys too, should open their eyes really wide.