US middle east relations
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Michael A. Barnhart wrote: I am not saying it was a product of paranoia. But in the post WWII era the west was paranoid about communism. Justification is not the issue here. But isn't paranoia without justification simply a dillusional condition? I will confess to being a bit sensitive to the suggestion that our opposition to communism was in any way an overreaction. Michael A. Barnhart wrote: It may not have been part of our grand strategy but our support was directly due to our concern for the stability of the region becoming communist. If so, I would certainly rate it as one of our rather more obvious miscalculations. Still, if it did help, than I'm comfortable with it. Michael A. Barnhart wrote: What I am trying to convey is the fact that many decisions made in the late 40's to mid 60's and even into the 80's was to attack communism. Not against the people caught in the middle. Most on this list I do not believe appreciate that fact and due to that why the US made many decisions that now seem bad. We certainly agree on that. However, I think the problem goes much deeper than simply a failure to appreciate reality. To virtually every European and many on the American left, the U.S. represents an equal but opposite evil to that which the USSR represented. As long as the USSR existed the two evils cancelled each other out. They view themselves as representative of a happy middle ground between the extremes of Soviet communism and American capitalism. And they view any opposition to American hegemony as being prefectly justified. In other words, people are being taught (brainwashed) to believe that we represent a threat to their welfare. This is a pervasive and growing international attitude. I'm not a real reverend, I just play one on CP.
c'mon Rev, not everybody who disagrees with how the US handles international relations is brainwashed. In the same turn, US americans are brainwashed to believe the world would be a better place if everything would be handled the american way. We are all what we learn.
Auch den Schatten will ich lieben weil ich manchmal lieber frier' Rosenstolz [sighist]
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Reverend Stan wrote: I'm not quite sure what you are trying to suggest, but the USSR was the single most evil political system that has ever existed in human history. That was not a product of "paranoia" it was as real as NAZIism and even more dangerous. Our defense of the world against it was completely justified. I'm sorry, but you've seen too many movies. The pseudo-communist system was far worse under Stalin than at any time after that, and was never the threat the US imagined. Nor was it ever a good excuse for invading other countries and trying to impliment 'forced democracy', which is an oxymoron BTW. Reverend Stan wrote: I spent most of the 70's and 80's training to fight the "Soviet War Machine", so I have a good idea of what it was capable of. Oops - I guess that's why your viewpoint is somewhat coloured. Christian Hey, at least Logo had, at it's inception, a mechanical turtle. VB has always lacked even that... - Shog9 04-09-2002 During last 10 years, with invention of VB and similar programming environments, every ill-educated moron became able to develop software. - Alex E. - 12-Sept-2002
Christian Graus wrote: The pseudo-communist system was far worse under Stalin than at any time after that, and was never the threat the US imagined. But that is the time frame we are talking about here, 1948 (Israel) to 1953 (Iran), and do not forget Korea in the middle. After that we are paying for what the Arab world took as an attack on them. "If I won't be myself, who will?" Alfred Hitchcock
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Michael A. Barnhart wrote: Yes the US has supported some regimes that it should not have The problem I see is that it's still the same game: todays friend is tomorrows enemy. Short-sighted, short-lived alliances. And if you see what whackos are the current US allies are (Afghan warlords, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia *) I would almost be willing to bet on the "axis of evil 2020". The support for the Taliban or the Irak isn't so many generations away (like less than 1). I guess germany & WW2 has already been mentioned by someone else... *) nothing against them - I would perhaps invite them for a tea, but if I had a daughter I would not allow her marrying one of them
Auch den Schatten will ich lieben weil ich manchmal lieber frier' Rosenstolz [sighist]
peterchen wrote: The problem I see is that it's still the same game: todays friend is tomorrows enemy. Short-sighted, short-lived alliances. You are missing my point, what started this. The war against communism. That was not short-sighted or short-lived. But do to that some alliances were created to fight a greater evil, it was a decision to be made in that time and has to be looked at in that time frame, not todays, which is the common error I see many making. "If I won't be myself, who will?" Alfred Hitchcock
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c'mon Rev, not everybody who disagrees with how the US handles international relations is brainwashed. In the same turn, US americans are brainwashed to believe the world would be a better place if everything would be handled the american way. We are all what we learn.
Auch den Schatten will ich lieben weil ich manchmal lieber frier' Rosenstolz [sighist]
On a lighter side of your comment. Who isn't brainwashed. We just need to understand we are:) More by our local media than anything else:) "If I won't be myself, who will?" Alfred Hitchcock
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Felix Gartsman wrote: Reverend Stan wrote: I am afraid that I would have to agree with the average Muslim that our support of Israel has more to do with the influence of the varioius Jewish political organizations on our government than on any military need. I just can't wait to discover the secret handshake of the elder zionist council for world domination You may ridicule Stan's point but doing so does not answer it. When important people in the US administration are Jewish then automatically policy will reflect those people's prejudices, even if unitentionally. The current US spokeman on Defece (Wolfowitz) is Jewish. In the recent past a former Secretary of State (Henry Kissinger) is also Jewish - and he is still influential behind the scenes. Jews may not be aiming for world domination but they have definetly influenced US policy and, frankly, some of the policy choices go against America's self-interest. When the current US administration spectacularly declared that Ariel Sharon (also known as the Butcher of Beirut) is a "man of peace" the whole world was stunned. And people then wonder why America is hated! Brian Azzopardi bibamus, edamus, cras moriemur
[eat, drink, for tomorrow we die]
Brian Azz wrote: You may ridicule Stan's point but doing so does not answer it. When important people in the US administration are Jewish then automatically policy will reflect those people's prejudices, even if unitentionally. The current US spokeman on Defece (Wolfowitz) is Jewish. In the recent past a former Secretary of State (Henry Kissinger) is also Jewish - and he is still influential behind the scenes. And dozens of high level officials are Irish, so the US supported IRA? Like typical anti-semitism story, being a Jew gives you mythical powers so everyone obeys you. Brian Azz wrote: When the current US administration spectacularly declared that Ariel Sharon (also known as the Butcher of Beirut) is a "man of peace" the whole world was stunned. Lovely to see arab propoganda blended with european self-hatred.
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Brian Azz wrote: You may ridicule Stan's point but doing so does not answer it. When important people in the US administration are Jewish then automatically policy will reflect those people's prejudices, even if unitentionally. The current US spokeman on Defece (Wolfowitz) is Jewish. In the recent past a former Secretary of State (Henry Kissinger) is also Jewish - and he is still influential behind the scenes. And dozens of high level officials are Irish, so the US supported IRA? Like typical anti-semitism story, being a Jew gives you mythical powers so everyone obeys you. Brian Azz wrote: When the current US administration spectacularly declared that Ariel Sharon (also known as the Butcher of Beirut) is a "man of peace" the whole world was stunned. Lovely to see arab propoganda blended with european self-hatred.
Felix Gartsman wrote: And dozens of high level officials are Irish, so the US supported IRA? Well aren't there? And don't they? Ever heard of NorAid? It is an Irish-American organisation to help the IRA. Yes, America did support the IRA sending it weapons and money. Felix Gartsman wrote: Like typical anti-semitism story I knew you were gonna say this. You are accusing me of being an anti-semite yet you don't know me. Were did I say that all Jews should be killed? I did not say that. What I did say was that Jews and other interest groups have undue influence on US policy making. Yes, even the Irish. If saying the above makes me an anti-semite and a racist then God help us! By the same standards I must be anti-French coz I dislike escargot! Accusing people of being anti-semitic/racist is common tactic to shut people up and stifle debate. It is also a cheap one. Because someone does not agree with you does not make them anti-semitic. Hurling such an accusation at your opponenet without proof lowers the level of debate and debases the word "anti-semite". Frankly, grow up! Felix Gartsman wrote: Lovely to see arab propoganda blended with european self-hatred What arab propoganda? Was there or not a massacre in Beirut in the 80's? I condemn strongly violence on both sides. Suicide bombers are nothing but terrorists but that does not make Sharon a holy man either. I don't read or need Arab or Israeli agitprop. I've got a brain and I like to use it. As for european self-hatred: what does that have to do with it? Lefies in Europe are against Isreali policy in the mid-east but please do not confuse me with them. I'm nothing if not right-wing; however I also try to be objective. Both Isreal and the Palestinians have alot to answer for. Brian Azzopardi PS, How much are the new settlements in the Gaza strip going for? I'm interested in one you see :) bibamus, edamus, cras moriemur
[eat, drink, for tomorrow we die]
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Brian Azz wrote: You may ridicule Stan's point but doing so does not answer it. When important people in the US administration are Jewish then automatically policy will reflect those people's prejudices, even if unitentionally. The current US spokeman on Defece (Wolfowitz) is Jewish. In the recent past a former Secretary of State (Henry Kissinger) is also Jewish - and he is still influential behind the scenes. And dozens of high level officials are Irish, so the US supported IRA? Like typical anti-semitism story, being a Jew gives you mythical powers so everyone obeys you. Brian Azz wrote: When the current US administration spectacularly declared that Ariel Sharon (also known as the Butcher of Beirut) is a "man of peace" the whole world was stunned. Lovely to see arab propoganda blended with european self-hatred.
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so the US supported IRA? Ever heard of NORAID Felix? Please get your facts right.
Faith. Believing in something you *know* isn't true.
I can't help wondering what will happen with Bush's war on terrorism if he desides to get involved in the whole N.Ireland conflict :( -- Help me! I'm turning into a grapefruit!
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Reverend Stan wrote: I'm not quite sure what you are trying to suggest, but the USSR was the single most evil political system that has ever existed in human history. That was not a product of "paranoia" it was as real as NAZIism and even more dangerous. Our defense of the world against it was completely justified. I'm sorry, but you've seen too many movies. The pseudo-communist system was far worse under Stalin than at any time after that, and was never the threat the US imagined. Nor was it ever a good excuse for invading other countries and trying to impliment 'forced democracy', which is an oxymoron BTW. Reverend Stan wrote: I spent most of the 70's and 80's training to fight the "Soviet War Machine", so I have a good idea of what it was capable of. Oops - I guess that's why your viewpoint is somewhat coloured. Christian Hey, at least Logo had, at it's inception, a mechanical turtle. VB has always lacked even that... - Shog9 04-09-2002 During last 10 years, with invention of VB and similar programming environments, every ill-educated moron became able to develop software. - Alex E. - 12-Sept-2002
Christian Graus wrote: I'm sorry, but you've seen too many movies. I can't imagine what movies you might be referring to. For the most part, Hollywood paints a rather rosey portrait of Communism. Which shouldn't be too surprising considering the political persuasion of those working there. Christian Graus wrote: The pseudo-communist system was far worse under Stalin than at any time after that, and was never the threat the US imagined. Nor was it ever a good excuse for invading other countries and trying to impliment 'forced democracy', which is an oxymoron BTW. Any system of government which centralizes political power and authority and which controls a people's economic opportunities, and upon which those people are dependent for there daily welfare is evil or will soon become evil. I want my government to stand in opposition to all such systems of government, not to join them. Sadly, that does not appear to be the path we are following. Free market, capitalistic systems are the only true source of freedom, anything else leaves people dependent upon government and you simply cannot be simultaneously dependent and free - *that* is an oxymoron. Christian Graus wrote: Oops - I guess that's why your viewpoint is somewhat coloured. The only good commie is a dead commie. I'm not a real reverend, I just play one on CP.
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I can't help wondering what will happen with Bush's war on terrorism if he desides to get involved in the whole N.Ireland conflict :( -- Help me! I'm turning into a grapefruit!
One good thing that seems to have emerged from the aftermath of 9/11 is that the Real IRA have been VERY quiet indeed. Let's hope it stays that way eh? Also, I think that many more Americans are now aware of what it means to live with the daily threat of terrorism - which will hopefully see any US support for the IRA dwindle. Funnily enough, the only time I have ever felt any animosity when abroad (and I'm well travelled) was in an Irish bar in NYC about 10 years ago. Someone actually came round with a collecting tin to help fund the Irish "freedom fighters". As soon as I opened my mouth and the people in the bar realised I was English, I was told to leave in no uncertain terms. It was actually quite scary.
Faith. Believing in something you *know* isn't true.
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The post-war USSR was definitely worse than the post-war US, but it wasn't the hellmouth you describe. Maybe some a little bit of the anti-commie-propaganda stuck, too...
Auch den Schatten will ich lieben weil ich manchmal lieber frier' Rosenstolz [sighist]
peterchen wrote: but it wasn't the hellmouth you describe. Peter, Keep in mind that some of us grew up with fall-out drills every few weeks. Justified or not try to understand that. Back to time frame again. This was Stalin's USSR OK. How many people were taken away never to be heard from again? (And when asked the only thing told to the family was "They are not in prison.") To me this describes hell pretty well. They are doing that to their own people so what would they do to others! "If I won't be myself, who will?" Alfred Hitchcock
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so the US supported IRA? Ever heard of NORAID Felix? Please get your facts right.
Faith. Believing in something you *know* isn't true.
Hi Robert! It's been a while since I saw you post. Robert Edward Caldecott wrote: Ever heard of NORAID Felix? Please get your facts right. Be carefull!! He will now accuse you of being anti-semitic! Brian Azzopardi bibamus, edamus, cras moriemur
[eat, drink, for tomorrow we die]
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Reverend Stan wrote: I personally do not believe that Israel played any large roll in our grand strategy against the USSR. That's because lack of knowledge. In 1970 went to a major war risk to prevent USSR sponsored revolution in Jordan. Israel prevented soviet domination over oil. Also mossad supplied vital intelligance. Reverend Stan wrote: I am afraid that I would have to agree with the average Muslim that our support of Israel has more to do with the influence of the varioius Jewish political organizations on our government than on any military need. I just can't wait to discover the secret handshake of the elder zionist council for world domination:-D
Felix Gartsman wrote: That's because lack of knowledge. In 1970 went to a major war risk to prevent USSR sponsored revolution in Jordan. Israel prevented soviet domination over oil. Also mossad supplied vital intelligance. Well fine. Thanks. Felix Gartsman wrote: I just can't wait to discover the secret handshake of the elder zionist council for world domination I never implied anything of the sort. You counter any kind of anti-Jewish comment with an implied charge of anti-semitism. In the same way that a relatively small but well organized Cuban population influences our polocies towards Cuba, a small but well organized Jewish population influences our policies towards Israel. I don't think anything could be more obvioius. If that is enough to make me an anti-semite than so be it. BTW, I am also not saying that our policies towards Israel should change. For whatever reason, we have taken a stand and we should be firm. I don't believe for a minute that the Islamic desire to see Israel destroyed can be assuaged by any sort of diplomacy. I'm not a real reverend, I just play one on CP.
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Hi Robert! It's been a while since I saw you post. Robert Edward Caldecott wrote: Ever heard of NORAID Felix? Please get your facts right. Be carefull!! He will now accuse you of being anti-semitic! Brian Azzopardi bibamus, edamus, cras moriemur
[eat, drink, for tomorrow we die]
a note on "anti-semetic" - both Isrealis and Palestinians are semites. Both have tragic history's, and deserve compasion The following statement about your geekness is true.
The previous statement about your geekness is false. -
Hi Robert! It's been a while since I saw you post. Robert Edward Caldecott wrote: Ever heard of NORAID Felix? Please get your facts right. Be carefull!! He will now accuse you of being anti-semitic! Brian Azzopardi bibamus, edamus, cras moriemur
[eat, drink, for tomorrow we die]
Hi Robert! It's been a while since I saw you post. Hi Brian Baby. I actually though political discussion had been banned and the CP karma policae had won the day! :) :) :) Be carefull!! He will now accuse you of being anti-semitic! he he. Hey, I'm a liberal - I love everybody! :-D
Faith. Believing in something you *know* isn't true.
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Christian Graus wrote: I'm sorry, but you've seen too many movies. I can't imagine what movies you might be referring to. For the most part, Hollywood paints a rather rosey portrait of Communism. Which shouldn't be too surprising considering the political persuasion of those working there. Christian Graus wrote: The pseudo-communist system was far worse under Stalin than at any time after that, and was never the threat the US imagined. Nor was it ever a good excuse for invading other countries and trying to impliment 'forced democracy', which is an oxymoron BTW. Any system of government which centralizes political power and authority and which controls a people's economic opportunities, and upon which those people are dependent for there daily welfare is evil or will soon become evil. I want my government to stand in opposition to all such systems of government, not to join them. Sadly, that does not appear to be the path we are following. Free market, capitalistic systems are the only true source of freedom, anything else leaves people dependent upon government and you simply cannot be simultaneously dependent and free - *that* is an oxymoron. Christian Graus wrote: Oops - I guess that's why your viewpoint is somewhat coloured. The only good commie is a dead commie. I'm not a real reverend, I just play one on CP.
And they say brainwashing only happens in Russia. Christian Hey, at least Logo had, at it's inception, a mechanical turtle. VB has always lacked even that... - Shog9 04-09-2002 During last 10 years, with invention of VB and similar programming environments, every ill-educated moron became able to develop software. - Alex E. - 12-Sept-2002
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Felix Gartsman wrote: And dozens of high level officials are Irish, so the US supported IRA? Well aren't there? And don't they? Ever heard of NorAid? It is an Irish-American organisation to help the IRA. Yes, America did support the IRA sending it weapons and money. Felix Gartsman wrote: Like typical anti-semitism story I knew you were gonna say this. You are accusing me of being an anti-semite yet you don't know me. Were did I say that all Jews should be killed? I did not say that. What I did say was that Jews and other interest groups have undue influence on US policy making. Yes, even the Irish. If saying the above makes me an anti-semite and a racist then God help us! By the same standards I must be anti-French coz I dislike escargot! Accusing people of being anti-semitic/racist is common tactic to shut people up and stifle debate. It is also a cheap one. Because someone does not agree with you does not make them anti-semitic. Hurling such an accusation at your opponenet without proof lowers the level of debate and debases the word "anti-semite". Frankly, grow up! Felix Gartsman wrote: Lovely to see arab propoganda blended with european self-hatred What arab propoganda? Was there or not a massacre in Beirut in the 80's? I condemn strongly violence on both sides. Suicide bombers are nothing but terrorists but that does not make Sharon a holy man either. I don't read or need Arab or Israeli agitprop. I've got a brain and I like to use it. As for european self-hatred: what does that have to do with it? Lefies in Europe are against Isreali policy in the mid-east but please do not confuse me with them. I'm nothing if not right-wing; however I also try to be objective. Both Isreal and the Palestinians have alot to answer for. Brian Azzopardi PS, How much are the new settlements in the Gaza strip going for? I'm interested in one you see :) bibamus, edamus, cras moriemur
[eat, drink, for tomorrow we die]
Brian Azzopardi wrote: I knew you were gonna say this. You are accusing me of being an anti-semite yet you don't know me. Were did I say that all Jews should be killed? Anti-semitism isn't desire to kill jews, I'm sure you dont. It is viewing jews as conspiracy plotters, use of innocent people for their evil ideas, etc... Murder is extreme view rarely found today, but suspicious treatment is wide. Today local paper http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=214129&contrassID=2&subContrassID=1&sbSubContrassID=0[^] published how UK TV shows Israel, no one suggested murder, but the description of Jerusalem clearly speaks for itself. Brian Azzopardi wrote: Was there or not a massacre in Beirut in the 80's? Sure it was, but not by Israel. Brian Azzopardi wrote: As for european self-hatred: what does that have to do with it? Europeans massacred so many in Africa, so they think everyone does it. European sympaty to suffering twist their mind. Brian Azzopardi wrote: How much are the new settlements in the Gaza strip going for? I'm interested in one you see If you like mortar rounds instead of alarm clock, you can get one cheap:) Settlements are wrong, but not from the reasons you think.
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so the US supported IRA? Ever heard of NORAID Felix? Please get your facts right.
Faith. Believing in something you *know* isn't true.
Robert Edward Caldecott wrote: Ever heard of NORAID Felix? Yes, but was it by state/defence minister like our discussion?
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Felix Gartsman wrote: That's because lack of knowledge. In 1970 went to a major war risk to prevent USSR sponsored revolution in Jordan. Israel prevented soviet domination over oil. Also mossad supplied vital intelligance. Well fine. Thanks. Felix Gartsman wrote: I just can't wait to discover the secret handshake of the elder zionist council for world domination I never implied anything of the sort. You counter any kind of anti-Jewish comment with an implied charge of anti-semitism. In the same way that a relatively small but well organized Cuban population influences our polocies towards Cuba, a small but well organized Jewish population influences our policies towards Israel. I don't think anything could be more obvioius. If that is enough to make me an anti-semite than so be it. BTW, I am also not saying that our policies towards Israel should change. For whatever reason, we have taken a stand and we should be firm. I don't believe for a minute that the Islamic desire to see Israel destroyed can be assuaged by any sort of diplomacy. I'm not a real reverend, I just play one on CP.
Reverend Stan wrote: You counter any kind of anti-Jewish comment with an implied charge of anti-semitism. In the same way that a relatively small but well organized Cuban population influences our polocies towards Cuba, a small but well organized Jewish population influences our policies towards Israel. Influence? Sure. Everybody does it. But talking as it forces US to act against its interests, is different.
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On a lighter side of your comment. Who isn't brainwashed. We just need to understand we are:) More by our local media than anything else:) "If I won't be myself, who will?" Alfred Hitchcock