US middle east relations
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Reverend Stan wrote: I'm not quite sure what you are trying to suggest, but the USSR was the single most evil political system that has ever existed in human history. That was not a product of "paranoia" it was as real as NAZIism and even more dangerous. Our defense of the world against it was completely justified. I'm sorry, but you've seen too many movies. The pseudo-communist system was far worse under Stalin than at any time after that, and was never the threat the US imagined. Nor was it ever a good excuse for invading other countries and trying to impliment 'forced democracy', which is an oxymoron BTW. Reverend Stan wrote: I spent most of the 70's and 80's training to fight the "Soviet War Machine", so I have a good idea of what it was capable of. Oops - I guess that's why your viewpoint is somewhat coloured. Christian Hey, at least Logo had, at it's inception, a mechanical turtle. VB has always lacked even that... - Shog9 04-09-2002 During last 10 years, with invention of VB and similar programming environments, every ill-educated moron became able to develop software. - Alex E. - 12-Sept-2002
Christian Graus wrote: I'm sorry, but you've seen too many movies. I can't imagine what movies you might be referring to. For the most part, Hollywood paints a rather rosey portrait of Communism. Which shouldn't be too surprising considering the political persuasion of those working there. Christian Graus wrote: The pseudo-communist system was far worse under Stalin than at any time after that, and was never the threat the US imagined. Nor was it ever a good excuse for invading other countries and trying to impliment 'forced democracy', which is an oxymoron BTW. Any system of government which centralizes political power and authority and which controls a people's economic opportunities, and upon which those people are dependent for there daily welfare is evil or will soon become evil. I want my government to stand in opposition to all such systems of government, not to join them. Sadly, that does not appear to be the path we are following. Free market, capitalistic systems are the only true source of freedom, anything else leaves people dependent upon government and you simply cannot be simultaneously dependent and free - *that* is an oxymoron. Christian Graus wrote: Oops - I guess that's why your viewpoint is somewhat coloured. The only good commie is a dead commie. I'm not a real reverend, I just play one on CP.
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I can't help wondering what will happen with Bush's war on terrorism if he desides to get involved in the whole N.Ireland conflict :( -- Help me! I'm turning into a grapefruit!
One good thing that seems to have emerged from the aftermath of 9/11 is that the Real IRA have been VERY quiet indeed. Let's hope it stays that way eh? Also, I think that many more Americans are now aware of what it means to live with the daily threat of terrorism - which will hopefully see any US support for the IRA dwindle. Funnily enough, the only time I have ever felt any animosity when abroad (and I'm well travelled) was in an Irish bar in NYC about 10 years ago. Someone actually came round with a collecting tin to help fund the Irish "freedom fighters". As soon as I opened my mouth and the people in the bar realised I was English, I was told to leave in no uncertain terms. It was actually quite scary.
Faith. Believing in something you *know* isn't true.
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The post-war USSR was definitely worse than the post-war US, but it wasn't the hellmouth you describe. Maybe some a little bit of the anti-commie-propaganda stuck, too...
Auch den Schatten will ich lieben weil ich manchmal lieber frier' Rosenstolz [sighist]
peterchen wrote: but it wasn't the hellmouth you describe. Peter, Keep in mind that some of us grew up with fall-out drills every few weeks. Justified or not try to understand that. Back to time frame again. This was Stalin's USSR OK. How many people were taken away never to be heard from again? (And when asked the only thing told to the family was "They are not in prison.") To me this describes hell pretty well. They are doing that to their own people so what would they do to others! "If I won't be myself, who will?" Alfred Hitchcock
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so the US supported IRA? Ever heard of NORAID Felix? Please get your facts right.
Faith. Believing in something you *know* isn't true.
Hi Robert! It's been a while since I saw you post. Robert Edward Caldecott wrote: Ever heard of NORAID Felix? Please get your facts right. Be carefull!! He will now accuse you of being anti-semitic! Brian Azzopardi bibamus, edamus, cras moriemur
[eat, drink, for tomorrow we die]
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Reverend Stan wrote: I personally do not believe that Israel played any large roll in our grand strategy against the USSR. That's because lack of knowledge. In 1970 went to a major war risk to prevent USSR sponsored revolution in Jordan. Israel prevented soviet domination over oil. Also mossad supplied vital intelligance. Reverend Stan wrote: I am afraid that I would have to agree with the average Muslim that our support of Israel has more to do with the influence of the varioius Jewish political organizations on our government than on any military need. I just can't wait to discover the secret handshake of the elder zionist council for world domination:-D
Felix Gartsman wrote: That's because lack of knowledge. In 1970 went to a major war risk to prevent USSR sponsored revolution in Jordan. Israel prevented soviet domination over oil. Also mossad supplied vital intelligance. Well fine. Thanks. Felix Gartsman wrote: I just can't wait to discover the secret handshake of the elder zionist council for world domination I never implied anything of the sort. You counter any kind of anti-Jewish comment with an implied charge of anti-semitism. In the same way that a relatively small but well organized Cuban population influences our polocies towards Cuba, a small but well organized Jewish population influences our policies towards Israel. I don't think anything could be more obvioius. If that is enough to make me an anti-semite than so be it. BTW, I am also not saying that our policies towards Israel should change. For whatever reason, we have taken a stand and we should be firm. I don't believe for a minute that the Islamic desire to see Israel destroyed can be assuaged by any sort of diplomacy. I'm not a real reverend, I just play one on CP.
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Hi Robert! It's been a while since I saw you post. Robert Edward Caldecott wrote: Ever heard of NORAID Felix? Please get your facts right. Be carefull!! He will now accuse you of being anti-semitic! Brian Azzopardi bibamus, edamus, cras moriemur
[eat, drink, for tomorrow we die]
a note on "anti-semetic" - both Isrealis and Palestinians are semites. Both have tragic history's, and deserve compasion The following statement about your geekness is true.
The previous statement about your geekness is false. -
Hi Robert! It's been a while since I saw you post. Robert Edward Caldecott wrote: Ever heard of NORAID Felix? Please get your facts right. Be carefull!! He will now accuse you of being anti-semitic! Brian Azzopardi bibamus, edamus, cras moriemur
[eat, drink, for tomorrow we die]
Hi Robert! It's been a while since I saw you post. Hi Brian Baby. I actually though political discussion had been banned and the CP karma policae had won the day! :) :) :) Be carefull!! He will now accuse you of being anti-semitic! he he. Hey, I'm a liberal - I love everybody! :-D
Faith. Believing in something you *know* isn't true.
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Christian Graus wrote: I'm sorry, but you've seen too many movies. I can't imagine what movies you might be referring to. For the most part, Hollywood paints a rather rosey portrait of Communism. Which shouldn't be too surprising considering the political persuasion of those working there. Christian Graus wrote: The pseudo-communist system was far worse under Stalin than at any time after that, and was never the threat the US imagined. Nor was it ever a good excuse for invading other countries and trying to impliment 'forced democracy', which is an oxymoron BTW. Any system of government which centralizes political power and authority and which controls a people's economic opportunities, and upon which those people are dependent for there daily welfare is evil or will soon become evil. I want my government to stand in opposition to all such systems of government, not to join them. Sadly, that does not appear to be the path we are following. Free market, capitalistic systems are the only true source of freedom, anything else leaves people dependent upon government and you simply cannot be simultaneously dependent and free - *that* is an oxymoron. Christian Graus wrote: Oops - I guess that's why your viewpoint is somewhat coloured. The only good commie is a dead commie. I'm not a real reverend, I just play one on CP.
And they say brainwashing only happens in Russia. Christian Hey, at least Logo had, at it's inception, a mechanical turtle. VB has always lacked even that... - Shog9 04-09-2002 During last 10 years, with invention of VB and similar programming environments, every ill-educated moron became able to develop software. - Alex E. - 12-Sept-2002
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Felix Gartsman wrote: And dozens of high level officials are Irish, so the US supported IRA? Well aren't there? And don't they? Ever heard of NorAid? It is an Irish-American organisation to help the IRA. Yes, America did support the IRA sending it weapons and money. Felix Gartsman wrote: Like typical anti-semitism story I knew you were gonna say this. You are accusing me of being an anti-semite yet you don't know me. Were did I say that all Jews should be killed? I did not say that. What I did say was that Jews and other interest groups have undue influence on US policy making. Yes, even the Irish. If saying the above makes me an anti-semite and a racist then God help us! By the same standards I must be anti-French coz I dislike escargot! Accusing people of being anti-semitic/racist is common tactic to shut people up and stifle debate. It is also a cheap one. Because someone does not agree with you does not make them anti-semitic. Hurling such an accusation at your opponenet without proof lowers the level of debate and debases the word "anti-semite". Frankly, grow up! Felix Gartsman wrote: Lovely to see arab propoganda blended with european self-hatred What arab propoganda? Was there or not a massacre in Beirut in the 80's? I condemn strongly violence on both sides. Suicide bombers are nothing but terrorists but that does not make Sharon a holy man either. I don't read or need Arab or Israeli agitprop. I've got a brain and I like to use it. As for european self-hatred: what does that have to do with it? Lefies in Europe are against Isreali policy in the mid-east but please do not confuse me with them. I'm nothing if not right-wing; however I also try to be objective. Both Isreal and the Palestinians have alot to answer for. Brian Azzopardi PS, How much are the new settlements in the Gaza strip going for? I'm interested in one you see :) bibamus, edamus, cras moriemur
[eat, drink, for tomorrow we die]
Brian Azzopardi wrote: I knew you were gonna say this. You are accusing me of being an anti-semite yet you don't know me. Were did I say that all Jews should be killed? Anti-semitism isn't desire to kill jews, I'm sure you dont. It is viewing jews as conspiracy plotters, use of innocent people for their evil ideas, etc... Murder is extreme view rarely found today, but suspicious treatment is wide. Today local paper http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=214129&contrassID=2&subContrassID=1&sbSubContrassID=0[^] published how UK TV shows Israel, no one suggested murder, but the description of Jerusalem clearly speaks for itself. Brian Azzopardi wrote: Was there or not a massacre in Beirut in the 80's? Sure it was, but not by Israel. Brian Azzopardi wrote: As for european self-hatred: what does that have to do with it? Europeans massacred so many in Africa, so they think everyone does it. European sympaty to suffering twist their mind. Brian Azzopardi wrote: How much are the new settlements in the Gaza strip going for? I'm interested in one you see If you like mortar rounds instead of alarm clock, you can get one cheap:) Settlements are wrong, but not from the reasons you think.
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so the US supported IRA? Ever heard of NORAID Felix? Please get your facts right.
Faith. Believing in something you *know* isn't true.
Robert Edward Caldecott wrote: Ever heard of NORAID Felix? Yes, but was it by state/defence minister like our discussion?
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Felix Gartsman wrote: That's because lack of knowledge. In 1970 went to a major war risk to prevent USSR sponsored revolution in Jordan. Israel prevented soviet domination over oil. Also mossad supplied vital intelligance. Well fine. Thanks. Felix Gartsman wrote: I just can't wait to discover the secret handshake of the elder zionist council for world domination I never implied anything of the sort. You counter any kind of anti-Jewish comment with an implied charge of anti-semitism. In the same way that a relatively small but well organized Cuban population influences our polocies towards Cuba, a small but well organized Jewish population influences our policies towards Israel. I don't think anything could be more obvioius. If that is enough to make me an anti-semite than so be it. BTW, I am also not saying that our policies towards Israel should change. For whatever reason, we have taken a stand and we should be firm. I don't believe for a minute that the Islamic desire to see Israel destroyed can be assuaged by any sort of diplomacy. I'm not a real reverend, I just play one on CP.
Reverend Stan wrote: You counter any kind of anti-Jewish comment with an implied charge of anti-semitism. In the same way that a relatively small but well organized Cuban population influences our polocies towards Cuba, a small but well organized Jewish population influences our policies towards Israel. Influence? Sure. Everybody does it. But talking as it forces US to act against its interests, is different.
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On a lighter side of your comment. Who isn't brainwashed. We just need to understand we are:) More by our local media than anything else:) "If I won't be myself, who will?" Alfred Hitchcock
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Robert Edward Caldecott wrote: Ever heard of NORAID Felix? Yes, but was it by state/defence minister like our discussion?
Oh please. It was terrorist fund raising pure and simple and surely would have been illegal had it not of been for American-Irish influence. How many guns and Semtex it enabled the IRA to purchase we'll never know, but it was sure as hell helping them kill innocent people in the name of their cause. They also received funding from Libya and the former USSR (apparently). Oh the irony!
Faith. Believing in something you *know* isn't true.
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And they say brainwashing only happens in Russia. Christian Hey, at least Logo had, at it's inception, a mechanical turtle. VB has always lacked even that... - Shog9 04-09-2002 During last 10 years, with invention of VB and similar programming environments, every ill-educated moron became able to develop software. - Alex E. - 12-Sept-2002
I certainly never said that. But I will say this, I have nver received any sort of official political indoctrination - from the military or otherwise. My opinions a based purely upon examing a wide range of sources of information and drawing conclusions on my own. I owe my liberty exclusively to the capitalistic economic system and I am an enemy of any other system. I'm not a real reverend, I just play one on CP.
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Hi Robert! It's been a while since I saw you post. Robert Edward Caldecott wrote: Ever heard of NORAID Felix? Please get your facts right. Be carefull!! He will now accuse you of being anti-semitic! Brian Azzopardi bibamus, edamus, cras moriemur
[eat, drink, for tomorrow we die]
Yep, everyone not agreeing with me is anti-semitic:-D:-D:-D
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Oh please. It was terrorist fund raising pure and simple and surely would have been illegal had it not of been for American-Irish influence. How many guns and Semtex it enabled the IRA to purchase we'll never know, but it was sure as hell helping them kill innocent people in the name of their cause. They also received funding from Libya and the former USSR (apparently). Oh the irony!
Faith. Believing in something you *know* isn't true.
Robert Edward Caldecott wrote: They also received funding from Libya and the former USSR (apparently). Also who can forget the joined camps with PLO in Columbia.
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Robert Edward Caldecott wrote: They also received funding from Libya and the former USSR (apparently). Also who can forget the joined camps with PLO in Columbia.
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Also, Sinn Fein are very left-wing and have policies that many Americans would find almost Communist in nature! We live in a crazy world indeed.
Faith. Believing in something you *know* isn't true.
Have you read the book "The Brotherhood of Arms"? (How the US submarine industry was originally funded.) "If I won't be myself, who will?" Alfred Hitchcock
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peterchen wrote: but it wasn't the hellmouth you describe. Peter, Keep in mind that some of us grew up with fall-out drills every few weeks. Justified or not try to understand that. Back to time frame again. This was Stalin's USSR OK. How many people were taken away never to be heard from again? (And when asked the only thing told to the family was "They are not in prison.") To me this describes hell pretty well. They are doing that to their own people so what would they do to others! "If I won't be myself, who will?" Alfred Hitchcock
I fully understand that, n.p. When I was maybe 10, and I saw the first picture of Regean, I wondered how this evil man could be smiling. I know this doesn't justify anything, but those who vanished usually knew very well what they did. Michael A. Barnhart wrote: what would they do to others Nothing they wouldn't do to their own people, I suppose... This didn't matter much.
Auch den Schatten will ich lieben weil ich manchmal lieber frier' Rosenstolz [sighist]
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Have you read the book "The Brotherhood of Arms"? (How the US submarine industry was originally funded.) "If I won't be myself, who will?" Alfred Hitchcock