US middle east relations
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Christian Graus wrote: I'm sorry, but you've seen too many movies. I can't imagine what movies you might be referring to. For the most part, Hollywood paints a rather rosey portrait of Communism. Which shouldn't be too surprising considering the political persuasion of those working there. Christian Graus wrote: The pseudo-communist system was far worse under Stalin than at any time after that, and was never the threat the US imagined. Nor was it ever a good excuse for invading other countries and trying to impliment 'forced democracy', which is an oxymoron BTW. Any system of government which centralizes political power and authority and which controls a people's economic opportunities, and upon which those people are dependent for there daily welfare is evil or will soon become evil. I want my government to stand in opposition to all such systems of government, not to join them. Sadly, that does not appear to be the path we are following. Free market, capitalistic systems are the only true source of freedom, anything else leaves people dependent upon government and you simply cannot be simultaneously dependent and free - *that* is an oxymoron. Christian Graus wrote: Oops - I guess that's why your viewpoint is somewhat coloured. The only good commie is a dead commie. I'm not a real reverend, I just play one on CP.
And they say brainwashing only happens in Russia. Christian Hey, at least Logo had, at it's inception, a mechanical turtle. VB has always lacked even that... - Shog9 04-09-2002 During last 10 years, with invention of VB and similar programming environments, every ill-educated moron became able to develop software. - Alex E. - 12-Sept-2002
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Felix Gartsman wrote: And dozens of high level officials are Irish, so the US supported IRA? Well aren't there? And don't they? Ever heard of NorAid? It is an Irish-American organisation to help the IRA. Yes, America did support the IRA sending it weapons and money. Felix Gartsman wrote: Like typical anti-semitism story I knew you were gonna say this. You are accusing me of being an anti-semite yet you don't know me. Were did I say that all Jews should be killed? I did not say that. What I did say was that Jews and other interest groups have undue influence on US policy making. Yes, even the Irish. If saying the above makes me an anti-semite and a racist then God help us! By the same standards I must be anti-French coz I dislike escargot! Accusing people of being anti-semitic/racist is common tactic to shut people up and stifle debate. It is also a cheap one. Because someone does not agree with you does not make them anti-semitic. Hurling such an accusation at your opponenet without proof lowers the level of debate and debases the word "anti-semite". Frankly, grow up! Felix Gartsman wrote: Lovely to see arab propoganda blended with european self-hatred What arab propoganda? Was there or not a massacre in Beirut in the 80's? I condemn strongly violence on both sides. Suicide bombers are nothing but terrorists but that does not make Sharon a holy man either. I don't read or need Arab or Israeli agitprop. I've got a brain and I like to use it. As for european self-hatred: what does that have to do with it? Lefies in Europe are against Isreali policy in the mid-east but please do not confuse me with them. I'm nothing if not right-wing; however I also try to be objective. Both Isreal and the Palestinians have alot to answer for. Brian Azzopardi PS, How much are the new settlements in the Gaza strip going for? I'm interested in one you see :) bibamus, edamus, cras moriemur
[eat, drink, for tomorrow we die]
Brian Azzopardi wrote: I knew you were gonna say this. You are accusing me of being an anti-semite yet you don't know me. Were did I say that all Jews should be killed? Anti-semitism isn't desire to kill jews, I'm sure you dont. It is viewing jews as conspiracy plotters, use of innocent people for their evil ideas, etc... Murder is extreme view rarely found today, but suspicious treatment is wide. Today local paper http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=214129&contrassID=2&subContrassID=1&sbSubContrassID=0[^] published how UK TV shows Israel, no one suggested murder, but the description of Jerusalem clearly speaks for itself. Brian Azzopardi wrote: Was there or not a massacre in Beirut in the 80's? Sure it was, but not by Israel. Brian Azzopardi wrote: As for european self-hatred: what does that have to do with it? Europeans massacred so many in Africa, so they think everyone does it. European sympaty to suffering twist their mind. Brian Azzopardi wrote: How much are the new settlements in the Gaza strip going for? I'm interested in one you see If you like mortar rounds instead of alarm clock, you can get one cheap:) Settlements are wrong, but not from the reasons you think.
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so the US supported IRA? Ever heard of NORAID Felix? Please get your facts right.
Faith. Believing in something you *know* isn't true.
Robert Edward Caldecott wrote: Ever heard of NORAID Felix? Yes, but was it by state/defence minister like our discussion?
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Felix Gartsman wrote: That's because lack of knowledge. In 1970 went to a major war risk to prevent USSR sponsored revolution in Jordan. Israel prevented soviet domination over oil. Also mossad supplied vital intelligance. Well fine. Thanks. Felix Gartsman wrote: I just can't wait to discover the secret handshake of the elder zionist council for world domination I never implied anything of the sort. You counter any kind of anti-Jewish comment with an implied charge of anti-semitism. In the same way that a relatively small but well organized Cuban population influences our polocies towards Cuba, a small but well organized Jewish population influences our policies towards Israel. I don't think anything could be more obvioius. If that is enough to make me an anti-semite than so be it. BTW, I am also not saying that our policies towards Israel should change. For whatever reason, we have taken a stand and we should be firm. I don't believe for a minute that the Islamic desire to see Israel destroyed can be assuaged by any sort of diplomacy. I'm not a real reverend, I just play one on CP.
Reverend Stan wrote: You counter any kind of anti-Jewish comment with an implied charge of anti-semitism. In the same way that a relatively small but well organized Cuban population influences our polocies towards Cuba, a small but well organized Jewish population influences our policies towards Israel. Influence? Sure. Everybody does it. But talking as it forces US to act against its interests, is different.
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On a lighter side of your comment. Who isn't brainwashed. We just need to understand we are:) More by our local media than anything else:) "If I won't be myself, who will?" Alfred Hitchcock
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Robert Edward Caldecott wrote: Ever heard of NORAID Felix? Yes, but was it by state/defence minister like our discussion?
Oh please. It was terrorist fund raising pure and simple and surely would have been illegal had it not of been for American-Irish influence. How many guns and Semtex it enabled the IRA to purchase we'll never know, but it was sure as hell helping them kill innocent people in the name of their cause. They also received funding from Libya and the former USSR (apparently). Oh the irony!
Faith. Believing in something you *know* isn't true.
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Hi Robert! It's been a while since I saw you post. Robert Edward Caldecott wrote: Ever heard of NORAID Felix? Please get your facts right. Be carefull!! He will now accuse you of being anti-semitic! Brian Azzopardi bibamus, edamus, cras moriemur
[eat, drink, for tomorrow we die]
Yep, everyone not agreeing with me is anti-semitic:-D:-D:-D
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And they say brainwashing only happens in Russia. Christian Hey, at least Logo had, at it's inception, a mechanical turtle. VB has always lacked even that... - Shog9 04-09-2002 During last 10 years, with invention of VB and similar programming environments, every ill-educated moron became able to develop software. - Alex E. - 12-Sept-2002
I certainly never said that. But I will say this, I have nver received any sort of official political indoctrination - from the military or otherwise. My opinions a based purely upon examing a wide range of sources of information and drawing conclusions on my own. I owe my liberty exclusively to the capitalistic economic system and I am an enemy of any other system. I'm not a real reverend, I just play one on CP.
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Oh please. It was terrorist fund raising pure and simple and surely would have been illegal had it not of been for American-Irish influence. How many guns and Semtex it enabled the IRA to purchase we'll never know, but it was sure as hell helping them kill innocent people in the name of their cause. They also received funding from Libya and the former USSR (apparently). Oh the irony!
Faith. Believing in something you *know* isn't true.
Robert Edward Caldecott wrote: They also received funding from Libya and the former USSR (apparently). Also who can forget the joined camps with PLO in Columbia.
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Robert Edward Caldecott wrote: They also received funding from Libya and the former USSR (apparently). Also who can forget the joined camps with PLO in Columbia.
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Also, Sinn Fein are very left-wing and have policies that many Americans would find almost Communist in nature! We live in a crazy world indeed.
Faith. Believing in something you *know* isn't true.
Have you read the book "The Brotherhood of Arms"? (How the US submarine industry was originally funded.) "If I won't be myself, who will?" Alfred Hitchcock
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peterchen wrote: but it wasn't the hellmouth you describe. Peter, Keep in mind that some of us grew up with fall-out drills every few weeks. Justified or not try to understand that. Back to time frame again. This was Stalin's USSR OK. How many people were taken away never to be heard from again? (And when asked the only thing told to the family was "They are not in prison.") To me this describes hell pretty well. They are doing that to their own people so what would they do to others! "If I won't be myself, who will?" Alfred Hitchcock
I fully understand that, n.p. When I was maybe 10, and I saw the first picture of Regean, I wondered how this evil man could be smiling. I know this doesn't justify anything, but those who vanished usually knew very well what they did. Michael A. Barnhart wrote: what would they do to others Nothing they wouldn't do to their own people, I suppose... This didn't matter much.
Auch den Schatten will ich lieben weil ich manchmal lieber frier' Rosenstolz [sighist]
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Have you read the book "The Brotherhood of Arms"? (How the US submarine industry was originally funded.) "If I won't be myself, who will?" Alfred Hitchcock
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Michael A. Barnhart wrote: I am not saying it was a product of paranoia. But in the post WWII era the west was paranoid about communism. Justification is not the issue here. But isn't paranoia without justification simply a dillusional condition? I will confess to being a bit sensitive to the suggestion that our opposition to communism was in any way an overreaction. Michael A. Barnhart wrote: It may not have been part of our grand strategy but our support was directly due to our concern for the stability of the region becoming communist. If so, I would certainly rate it as one of our rather more obvious miscalculations. Still, if it did help, than I'm comfortable with it. Michael A. Barnhart wrote: What I am trying to convey is the fact that many decisions made in the late 40's to mid 60's and even into the 80's was to attack communism. Not against the people caught in the middle. Most on this list I do not believe appreciate that fact and due to that why the US made many decisions that now seem bad. We certainly agree on that. However, I think the problem goes much deeper than simply a failure to appreciate reality. To virtually every European and many on the American left, the U.S. represents an equal but opposite evil to that which the USSR represented. As long as the USSR existed the two evils cancelled each other out. They view themselves as representative of a happy middle ground between the extremes of Soviet communism and American capitalism. And they view any opposition to American hegemony as being prefectly justified. In other words, people are being taught (brainwashed) to believe that we represent a threat to their welfare. This is a pervasive and growing international attitude. I'm not a real reverend, I just play one on CP.
Reverend Stan wrote: However, I think the problem goes much deeper than simply a failure to appreciate reality. To virtually every European and many on the American left, the U.S. represents an equal but opposite evil to that which the USSR represented. As a 30-something native of the UK I take issue with that in the strongest possible terms. Personally I dodn't know anyone as deluded as you suggest, either at the time I was becoming aware of world events (1980s) or since. Sure, I may not like parts of US/Western Culture (ok, MacDonalds and the greed culture that pervades our society) but that doesn't mean I hate the US! Get real. At school (History "O" level) I studied the postwar era and am very aware of the part the US played in the recovery of Europe. I'm also aware of the screw-ups Western nations (US and UK included) have made in other parts of the word since. We're no angels either. We have a huge amount to thank you for, but that doesn't mean we have to agree with all your policies. Go in peace, Anna :rose: "Be yourself - not what others think you should be"
- Marcia Graesch -
Reverend Stan wrote: You counter any kind of anti-Jewish comment with an implied charge of anti-semitism. In the same way that a relatively small but well organized Cuban population influences our polocies towards Cuba, a small but well organized Jewish population influences our policies towards Israel. Influence? Sure. Everybody does it. But talking as it forces US to act against its interests, is different.
Felix Gartsman wrote: Influence? Sure. Everybody does it. But talking as it forces US to act against its interests, is different But that's the whole point! It is in America's interest to open up to Cuba yet an influential Cuban minority support the opposing view. The same goes for every other pressure group including the Jewish lobby. Giving such explicit and generous support to Israel, yet at the same time stationing American troops on Arab Holy Land (Saudi Arabia) is bad foreign policy from the purely American point of view. America would do itself a huge favour if it was seen as neutal in the Mid-East. But the Jewish lobby will make sure this does not happen. If you seriously and honestly believe that America declaring that Ariel Sharon is a "man of piece" is in it's own interest than you are living in cuckoo-land. Brian Azzopardi bibamus, edamus, cras moriemur
[eat, drink, for tomorrow we die]
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IT has been a number of years but I remember the group called "Feinian Brotherhood" actually underwrote the development and had plans to smuggle the first subs to Ireland. (This was the late 1800's) "If I won't be myself, who will?" Alfred Hitchcock
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I fully understand that, n.p. When I was maybe 10, and I saw the first picture of Regean, I wondered how this evil man could be smiling. I know this doesn't justify anything, but those who vanished usually knew very well what they did. Michael A. Barnhart wrote: what would they do to others Nothing they wouldn't do to their own people, I suppose... This didn't matter much.
Auch den Schatten will ich lieben weil ich manchmal lieber frier' Rosenstolz [sighist]
peterchen wrote: I know this doesn't justify anything, but those who vanished usually knew very well what they did. Well my specific case was a Doctor who was trying to develop a cure for a plague that was being carried by rats. Really a threat to the state. "If I won't be myself, who will?" Alfred Hitchcock
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peterchen wrote: The problem I see is that it's still the same game: todays friend is tomorrows enemy. Short-sighted, short-lived alliances. You are missing my point, what started this. The war against communism. That was not short-sighted or short-lived. But do to that some alliances were created to fight a greater evil, it was a decision to be made in that time and has to be looked at in that time frame, not todays, which is the common error I see many making. "If I won't be myself, who will?" Alfred Hitchcock
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Felix Gartsman wrote: Influence? Sure. Everybody does it. But talking as it forces US to act against its interests, is different But that's the whole point! It is in America's interest to open up to Cuba yet an influential Cuban minority support the opposing view. The same goes for every other pressure group including the Jewish lobby. Giving such explicit and generous support to Israel, yet at the same time stationing American troops on Arab Holy Land (Saudi Arabia) is bad foreign policy from the purely American point of view. America would do itself a huge favour if it was seen as neutal in the Mid-East. But the Jewish lobby will make sure this does not happen. If you seriously and honestly believe that America declaring that Ariel Sharon is a "man of piece" is in it's own interest than you are living in cuckoo-land. Brian Azzopardi bibamus, edamus, cras moriemur
[eat, drink, for tomorrow we die]
Brian Azzopardi wrote: If you seriously and honestly believe that America declaring that Ariel Sharon is a "man of piece" is in it's own interest than you are living in cuckoo-land. I wish:) It's probaby more fun there. It is american interest to have good ties with Israel, criticizing Israel PM wont do any good. ME is different than Europe, the rules are different. Usually everything is against logic. For example, in the west rumsfeld ignores german minister to show chilly relations. Here every arab leader can hardly stop kissing Saddam, it means he is doomed. I blame the heat for all troubles, it is over 35 degrees now!
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Felix Gartsman wrote: Influence? Sure. Everybody does it. But talking as it forces US to act against its interests, is different But that's the whole point! It is in America's interest to open up to Cuba yet an influential Cuban minority support the opposing view. The same goes for every other pressure group including the Jewish lobby. Giving such explicit and generous support to Israel, yet at the same time stationing American troops on Arab Holy Land (Saudi Arabia) is bad foreign policy from the purely American point of view. America would do itself a huge favour if it was seen as neutal in the Mid-East. But the Jewish lobby will make sure this does not happen. If you seriously and honestly believe that America declaring that Ariel Sharon is a "man of piece" is in it's own interest than you are living in cuckoo-land. Brian Azzopardi bibamus, edamus, cras moriemur
[eat, drink, for tomorrow we die]
Brian Azzopardi wrote: than you are living in cuckoo-land. I think that sums up the world right now pretty well. No matter what side you think you are on:) Cheers. "If I won't be myself, who will?" Alfred Hitchcock