Values and Skills
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I think the difference might be the time involved in the solution provided. If I hire a plumber who charges $150 an hour, he can probably fix what broke or add something new in a few hours. Fixing or building software could take 10's or 100's of hours. When you tell people you'll do that for $150p/h expect some to sh*t bricks.
thrakazog wrote:
I think the difference might be the time involved in the solution provided. If I hire a plumber who charges $150 an hour, he can probably fix what broke or add something new in a few hours.
The comparison is not really good. There are both small and large project.
You can't turn lead into gold, unless you've built yourself a nuclear plant.
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In a lecture today (3000-level Software Engineering), I was presented with an interesting aside buy our lecturer which has prompted me to post these thoughts here (particularly after having to read some really pathetic 'plz send codes' type posts here this evening. Within the Software Engineering 'world', I think it is fair to say that most of us understand the level of education, experience and skill that is required to succeed and thrive. But outside of our own little community, there seems to exists a culture of continually undervaluing the skills that most development professional bring to the party. The lecturer posed these comparisions (or something similiar); Lawyers, Plumbers, Fridge repairmen - people seem to have no problem paying these people hundreds of dollars per hour to sort out litigation, fix leaking septic pipes and keep things frozen! People also pay General Practicioners (Dr's) hundreds of Dollars per hour to tell them they have a cold or have sprained their ankles or etc... So why is it then, that people have a hard time parting with $$$ when it comes to IT/SE? Having worked in break-fix in the past, I have seen first hand how upset people get (who use their computers to work from home or run businesses) when you charge them $300-$500 to install a new HDD, Re-install Windows and their BASIC Productivity Apps. I've seen how businesses react when they come to YOU and ask for some manner of custom application and the quote they get is 10 times what they WANT to spend (eg, businesses wanting custom multi-user stock tracking systems for $500 and wanting it next week!)... Why does the general public seem to regard CompSci and SoftEng skills with such low regard? OK, we're not saving lives DIRECTLY like Dr's, but a world without Computer Scientists and Software Engineers will shunt us back to the Steam-driven Industrial Age. Then there is my pet peev; the leeching types (that we all see here, asking for 'plz send codes I n33d!!!!'; these ppl seem to expect the skills that many of the contributors here have spent YEARS developing, should instantly bend to these 'persons' wishes and do their school/uni/college/work assignment/task for them! So, am I just feeling unloved and vulnerable, or do others notice this? And if so, what is the solution?...
There are still too many people who are not digital natives. So they just cannot figure out where the value comes from. Compared to 10 years ago, things have already changed much. Hopefully this will be much better 10 years from now.
You can't turn lead into gold, unless you've built yourself a nuclear plant.
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thrakazog wrote:
I think the difference might be the time involved in the solution provided. If I hire a plumber who charges $150 an hour, he can probably fix what broke or add something new in a few hours.
The comparison is not really good. There are both small and large project.
You can't turn lead into gold, unless you've built yourself a nuclear plant.
Exactly - the plumber charges $300-$400 to fix a pipe in 2-3Hrs (sure Ok, it may not smell good); but you try charging $300-$400 for the same amount of time spent re-installing Windows, Patching, installing Office and setting the machine back up to see the Home Network! People a lot happier to give their money to the plumber. They understand that they plumber has 'learnt a trade' and has developed the skills to do the job! Alternatively, people seem to think that IT/SE professionals don't need to be trained and just do what they do for fun... I had thought for a moment, it was simply that people don't understand what goes into things (ie, Training, Design, Skills, etc), but in general, most people also do not really understand what a Lawyer does, or what a Doctor does, or what an Architect does. If there was 'nothing to it' (like I've had ppl tell me when I was doing break fix or developing web apps), why didnt they do it themselves? Another point MAYBE that people do not understand the difference between a properly engineered solution and something hacked together in minimum time (ie, ignoring maintainability and expandability) or something designed for a different purpose - case in point, static HTML/CSS website against a Dynamic MySQL/PHP backed Web App. I have a client who has no idea what either really is; fortunately he trusts me enough to beleive what I tell him even if he doesn't really understand the process...
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Exactly - the plumber charges $300-$400 to fix a pipe in 2-3Hrs (sure Ok, it may not smell good); but you try charging $300-$400 for the same amount of time spent re-installing Windows, Patching, installing Office and setting the machine back up to see the Home Network! People a lot happier to give their money to the plumber. They understand that they plumber has 'learnt a trade' and has developed the skills to do the job! Alternatively, people seem to think that IT/SE professionals don't need to be trained and just do what they do for fun... I had thought for a moment, it was simply that people don't understand what goes into things (ie, Training, Design, Skills, etc), but in general, most people also do not really understand what a Lawyer does, or what a Doctor does, or what an Architect does. If there was 'nothing to it' (like I've had ppl tell me when I was doing break fix or developing web apps), why didnt they do it themselves? Another point MAYBE that people do not understand the difference between a properly engineered solution and something hacked together in minimum time (ie, ignoring maintainability and expandability) or something designed for a different purpose - case in point, static HTML/CSS website against a Dynamic MySQL/PHP backed Web App. I have a client who has no idea what either really is; fortunately he trusts me enough to beleive what I tell him even if he doesn't really understand the process...
Yes, sure!
You can't turn lead into gold, unless you've built yourself a nuclear plant.
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In a lecture today (3000-level Software Engineering), I was presented with an interesting aside buy our lecturer which has prompted me to post these thoughts here (particularly after having to read some really pathetic 'plz send codes' type posts here this evening. Within the Software Engineering 'world', I think it is fair to say that most of us understand the level of education, experience and skill that is required to succeed and thrive. But outside of our own little community, there seems to exists a culture of continually undervaluing the skills that most development professional bring to the party. The lecturer posed these comparisions (or something similiar); Lawyers, Plumbers, Fridge repairmen - people seem to have no problem paying these people hundreds of dollars per hour to sort out litigation, fix leaking septic pipes and keep things frozen! People also pay General Practicioners (Dr's) hundreds of Dollars per hour to tell them they have a cold or have sprained their ankles or etc... So why is it then, that people have a hard time parting with $$$ when it comes to IT/SE? Having worked in break-fix in the past, I have seen first hand how upset people get (who use their computers to work from home or run businesses) when you charge them $300-$500 to install a new HDD, Re-install Windows and their BASIC Productivity Apps. I've seen how businesses react when they come to YOU and ask for some manner of custom application and the quote they get is 10 times what they WANT to spend (eg, businesses wanting custom multi-user stock tracking systems for $500 and wanting it next week!)... Why does the general public seem to regard CompSci and SoftEng skills with such low regard? OK, we're not saving lives DIRECTLY like Dr's, but a world without Computer Scientists and Software Engineers will shunt us back to the Steam-driven Industrial Age. Then there is my pet peev; the leeching types (that we all see here, asking for 'plz send codes I n33d!!!!'; these ppl seem to expect the skills that many of the contributors here have spent YEARS developing, should instantly bend to these 'persons' wishes and do their school/uni/college/work assignment/task for them! So, am I just feeling unloved and vulnerable, or do others notice this? And if so, what is the solution?...
It's because programmers are a bunch of whiney school girls.
Gary Kirkham Forever Forgiven and Alive in the Spirit The men said to them, "Why do you seek the living One among the dead? He is not here, but He has risen." Me blog, You read
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It's because programmers are a bunch of whiney school girls.
Gary Kirkham Forever Forgiven and Alive in the Spirit The men said to them, "Why do you seek the living One among the dead? He is not here, but He has risen." Me blog, You read
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Your basic repairman has to be local. The pinheads who control our money supply have no clue about what technical people do, much less why, and have no clue or care about quality. They just know they can ship technical jobs out for less money and probably someone else will have to deal with the consequences after they've collected their bonuses and cashed their stock options and retired to the good life.
You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists.
One of my (work) partners developed, years ago, the best set of question-answer responses to the issue of "you want to charge me how much?!?" His approach is to ask "How much did you pay for your last haircut?" Then he asks, "...and how long did it take?" The typical answers are "about $25 dollars" (assuming a male respondent), and "about 15 to 20 minutes". He then says "So, you're willing to pay your barber $75 to $100 an hour for a haircut, but you're unwilling to pay us the same amount for work that is much more complicated, requires a much higher degree of education, training and experience, and is much more critical to the operation of your business than whether or not you have a good haircut?" This usually stops the discussion, but every now and then some idiot says "...but the barber has to maintain a shop and buy equipment." Of course, it doesn't take long to point out that we need offices, and rooms full of servers. ... some people just never get it.
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One of my (work) partners developed, years ago, the best set of question-answer responses to the issue of "you want to charge me how much?!?" His approach is to ask "How much did you pay for your last haircut?" Then he asks, "...and how long did it take?" The typical answers are "about $25 dollars" (assuming a male respondent), and "about 15 to 20 minutes". He then says "So, you're willing to pay your barber $75 to $100 an hour for a haircut, but you're unwilling to pay us the same amount for work that is much more complicated, requires a much higher degree of education, training and experience, and is much more critical to the operation of your business than whether or not you have a good haircut?" This usually stops the discussion, but every now and then some idiot says "...but the barber has to maintain a shop and buy equipment." Of course, it doesn't take long to point out that we need offices, and rooms full of servers. ... some people just never get it.
Norm Powroz wrote:
His approach is to ask "How much did you pay for your last haircut?"
Guess I'm screwed since Friday will be the 40th anniversary of my last haircut with a barber. :rolleyes:
You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists.
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One of my (work) partners developed, years ago, the best set of question-answer responses to the issue of "you want to charge me how much?!?" His approach is to ask "How much did you pay for your last haircut?" Then he asks, "...and how long did it take?" The typical answers are "about $25 dollars" (assuming a male respondent), and "about 15 to 20 minutes". He then says "So, you're willing to pay your barber $75 to $100 an hour for a haircut, but you're unwilling to pay us the same amount for work that is much more complicated, requires a much higher degree of education, training and experience, and is much more critical to the operation of your business than whether or not you have a good haircut?" This usually stops the discussion, but every now and then some idiot says "...but the barber has to maintain a shop and buy equipment." Of course, it doesn't take long to point out that we need offices, and rooms full of servers. ... some people just never get it.
Norm Powroz wrote:
His approach is to ask "How much did you pay for your last haircut?"
To which the correct response is: "I don't pay anything, my child just graduated from hairdressing school"
Between the idea And the reality Between the motion And the act Falls the Shadow
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Exactly - the plumber charges $300-$400 to fix a pipe in 2-3Hrs (sure Ok, it may not smell good); but you try charging $300-$400 for the same amount of time spent re-installing Windows, Patching, installing Office and setting the machine back up to see the Home Network! People a lot happier to give their money to the plumber. They understand that they plumber has 'learnt a trade' and has developed the skills to do the job! Alternatively, people seem to think that IT/SE professionals don't need to be trained and just do what they do for fun... I had thought for a moment, it was simply that people don't understand what goes into things (ie, Training, Design, Skills, etc), but in general, most people also do not really understand what a Lawyer does, or what a Doctor does, or what an Architect does. If there was 'nothing to it' (like I've had ppl tell me when I was doing break fix or developing web apps), why didnt they do it themselves? Another point MAYBE that people do not understand the difference between a properly engineered solution and something hacked together in minimum time (ie, ignoring maintainability and expandability) or something designed for a different purpose - case in point, static HTML/CSS website against a Dynamic MySQL/PHP backed Web App. I have a client who has no idea what either really is; fortunately he trusts me enough to beleive what I tell him even if he doesn't really understand the process...
Everyone knows a kid that likes tinkering with computers and thinks they could get the kid to do it for little to nothing instead of paying you. No one knows a kid that tinkers around with the plumbing.
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Everyone knows a kid that likes tinkering with computers and thinks they could get the kid to do it for little to nothing instead of paying you. No one knows a kid that tinkers around with the plumbing.
eggsovereasy wrote:
No one knows a kid that tinkers around with the plumbing.
One of my brothers friends in votech did plumbing. My parents were able to get some basic work done at a significant discount. :cool:
The European Way of War: Blow your own continent up. The American Way of War: Go over and help them.
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Non-programmers simply do not understand how much time and effort goes into software engineering. They can see the effort a plumber puts in, they can physically see the welding, the floorboards being lifted etc - in other words, they can connect with the work that the plumber is doing. With software, because they've never done it before, they have no idea what it takes to produce the end result. Because of this, I really believe that they just think that software just 'materialises'. Even my friends think that all I have to do to create a fully functioning website, is to just "bash a few 1s and 0s in", and bobs you're uncle, we have a site like Amazon up and running in a matter of days. [off on a tangent] And giving away software for free doesn't really help us. If I were to put blood sweat and tears into a good piece of software, you can betcha bottom dollar I'm charging for it. Yeah I love development - wouldn't do anything else in the world - but it's taken years to learn to be proficient, and I ain't just giving it away. [/off on a tangent] Also, in the UK especially, we do not value engineers. In my line of work, DCS systems, the average UK staff salary is £30k. £30k???? You can earn more money working at the council with no specific training required whatsoever. (Hence why I go contract and work abroad ;) ) I wish people would realise that you can't just grab any old sod off the street and turn him into a decent engineer; likewise a lawyer, doctor, or any other suitably professional job. RRAAAHHH!!!
"...great scott!" Dilbert: Aren't all meetings like this... Richard Dawkins: "What if you're wrong?"
Lately the problem has been “We will use our cell phone expertise but we need power line monitoring. Our startup funding is assured.” H/W and software prototype is built. But the assured funding never came through. Anybody want to pay for home power monitoring? In my case it’s even worse than non-programmers not understanding. Few here have used a US$0.50 processor with all of 67 bytes of RAM. Using such a processor I wrote an all software PWM output for RGB LEDs. The goal: output color temperature. My code follows a rheostat, looks up RGB values in ROM and is able to make the base PWM run at over 130Hz. All paths have to take the same time or the resulting output will flicker. Add US$2.00 to the processor and get 3 hardware PWM outputs. “Sorry, we want to make 300K units and that more expensive approach is too costly.” This is so far from C++ STL or web site development that many (most?) here would call what I am good at a black art. Very small ad: If someone wants a simple, small footprint ARM Cortex-M3 multitasking scheduler I have one for the price of a reasonable consulting contract. Dig around in hmtown.com for a way to contact me.