Must have 10+ years of experience in .NET 4.0, Visual Studio 10
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Are you saying you would not use a recruitment agent unless he could knock up a WinForms app in half an hour? The agent isn't selling hardware or software but merely trying to match a list of requirements to an individual's (claimed)expertise.
Richard MacCutchan wrote:
The agent isn't selling hardware or software
He's selling developers. Or more correct, he's selling the developers' alleged productiveness. The recruiter needn't be able to program, but needs be able to distinguish and discriminate between his products, and needs to be able to verify the quality of his product. The recruiter doesn't have to be a programmer, but domain-knowledge gives an advantage. That's why casting-agencies in Hollywood know a thing or two about acting and appearance. Would you ask a recruiter for someone knowledgeable about "XML", if that recruiter cannot discriminate between XML and JSON? How is that recruiter ever going to find what he is looking for? Can he verify that he has found something valid? If you don't know how to test for XML-knowledge, then you're confined to the statements of the subjects that you're examining. IOW, you have no other option but to believe what's on their resume. In the latter case, the recruiter can be efficiently replaced by a database with resumes and a keyword-matching system.
"By all means, do not use a hammer." -- IBM Manual
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While searching for a job on Dice, I found this requirement. I am strong believer in presenting the truth and not cooking up the resume [we all are] - but when you see something like this, you just have to take a break and laugh for a while...10+ years of experience in .NET 4.0 + VS 2010 - a product that is still in Beta...and then they complain about candidates cooking up their resume... Here is the original job posting
I think I've deduced the logic they use to figure out these requirements... Hold on... It's coming to me... 1) Pick a random programmer in the company. Ask him what the next "cool" technology is. 2) Repeat with a few other programmers. Make a list. 3) Roll a d10 (10-sided die, for you non-gamers) to determine the years of experience 4) Subtract a d6 (6-sided die roll) if it's entry-level, or add a d6 if it's a senior position 5) Send to the recruitment agency And then the recruitment agency has their own process... 1) Completely ignore the supplied numbers, and flip a coin for "5" or "10" years experience, because obviously the company has no idea what they really want 2) From a hat filled with common acronyms and codes, pick 10-15 items and tack them on... Examples: VBA, ASP.NET, Joomla, COBOL, ISO9660, RFC1459, 802.11b 3) Make sure to add in "Strong communication skills", just to make sure the candidate knows he or she will have to interact with other members of the human race 4) Post! (Five points to anyone who knows which RFC that is without looking it up - Ah, memories)
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in? Developer, Author (Guardians of Xen)
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Richard MacCutchan wrote:
The agent isn't selling hardware or software
He's selling developers. Or more correct, he's selling the developers' alleged productiveness. The recruiter needn't be able to program, but needs be able to distinguish and discriminate between his products, and needs to be able to verify the quality of his product. The recruiter doesn't have to be a programmer, but domain-knowledge gives an advantage. That's why casting-agencies in Hollywood know a thing or two about acting and appearance. Would you ask a recruiter for someone knowledgeable about "XML", if that recruiter cannot discriminate between XML and JSON? How is that recruiter ever going to find what he is looking for? Can he verify that he has found something valid? If you don't know how to test for XML-knowledge, then you're confined to the statements of the subjects that you're examining. IOW, you have no other option but to believe what's on their resume. In the latter case, the recruiter can be efficiently replaced by a database with resumes and a keyword-matching system.
"By all means, do not use a hammer." -- IBM Manual
Eddy Vluggen wrote:
In the latter case, the recruiter can be efficiently replaced by a database
I'm sure you are right. Many of the modern agencies do use databases, all the recruiter ever does is list out the possible matches and then phone each in turn to see if they can do the job. In 40 years working in IT I never met a recruitment agent that had anything more than the most rudimentary computing background. And the few that did still had no experience of the field that I worked in.
Eddy Vluggen wrote:
you have no other option but to believe what's on their resume.
Also true, and how many 'experienced' software engineers have you worked with that really were nowhere near their claimed experience level, and yet still get recruited by the client directly, without agencies being involved?
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Eddy Vluggen wrote:
In the latter case, the recruiter can be efficiently replaced by a database
I'm sure you are right. Many of the modern agencies do use databases, all the recruiter ever does is list out the possible matches and then phone each in turn to see if they can do the job. In 40 years working in IT I never met a recruitment agent that had anything more than the most rudimentary computing background. And the few that did still had no experience of the field that I worked in.
Eddy Vluggen wrote:
you have no other option but to believe what's on their resume.
Also true, and how many 'experienced' software engineers have you worked with that really were nowhere near their claimed experience level, and yet still get recruited by the client directly, without agencies being involved?
Richard MacCutchan wrote:
and how many 'experienced' software engineers have you worked with that really were nowhere near their claimed experience level, and yet still get recruited by the client directly, without agencies being involved?
One or two, out of lots. I guess that means that they're adding value in some other way. Things are often more complicated than they appear. They're probably not competing with the job-pool of CodeProject or Joel Spolsky :)
"It's going to look pretty good, then, isn't it," said War testily, "the One Horseman and Three Pedestrians of the Apocalypse." -- The Four Horsemen, Terry Pratchett
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Richard MacCutchan wrote:
and how many 'experienced' software engineers have you worked with that really were nowhere near their claimed experience level, and yet still get recruited by the client directly, without agencies being involved?
One or two, out of lots. I guess that means that they're adding value in some other way. Things are often more complicated than they appear. They're probably not competing with the job-pool of CodeProject or Joel Spolsky :)
"It's going to look pretty good, then, isn't it," said War testily, "the One Horseman and Three Pedestrians of the Apocalypse." -- The Four Horsemen, Terry Pratchett
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This is nothing new. I remeber in 2001 a job advert specifying 3 years experience in .net. Presumably they were hoping to attract R&D developers in Redmond into a Junior developer role on Teeside.
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I think I've deduced the logic they use to figure out these requirements... Hold on... It's coming to me... 1) Pick a random programmer in the company. Ask him what the next "cool" technology is. 2) Repeat with a few other programmers. Make a list. 3) Roll a d10 (10-sided die, for you non-gamers) to determine the years of experience 4) Subtract a d6 (6-sided die roll) if it's entry-level, or add a d6 if it's a senior position 5) Send to the recruitment agency And then the recruitment agency has their own process... 1) Completely ignore the supplied numbers, and flip a coin for "5" or "10" years experience, because obviously the company has no idea what they really want 2) From a hat filled with common acronyms and codes, pick 10-15 items and tack them on... Examples: VBA, ASP.NET, Joomla, COBOL, ISO9660, RFC1459, 802.11b 3) Make sure to add in "Strong communication skills", just to make sure the candidate knows he or she will have to interact with other members of the human race 4) Post! (Five points to anyone who knows which RFC that is without looking it up - Ah, memories)
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in? Developer, Author (Guardians of Xen)
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While searching for a job on Dice, I found this requirement. I am strong believer in presenting the truth and not cooking up the resume [we all are] - but when you see something like this, you just have to take a break and laugh for a while...10+ years of experience in .NET 4.0 + VS 2010 - a product that is still in Beta...and then they complain about candidates cooking up their resume... Here is the original job posting
They probably just mean 10+ years of .NET, but even that's ridiculous.
Kevin
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While searching for a job on Dice, I found this requirement. I am strong believer in presenting the truth and not cooking up the resume [we all are] - but when you see something like this, you just have to take a break and laugh for a while...10+ years of experience in .NET 4.0 + VS 2010 - a product that is still in Beta...and then they complain about candidates cooking up their resume... Here is the original job posting
Yeah, I've seen that sort of thing since Visual Studio.net 2002 first came out; companies looking for candidates with three years of "professional experience" with C#. Fortunately the first spec of C# * was published in 1999 and I had read it then -- I now have ten years experience with C#, even though I've only had a compiler for it for seven. :-D * Co-worker: Isn't that the new Microsoft Java?
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Yeah, I've seen that sort of thing since Visual Studio.net 2002 first came out; companies looking for candidates with three years of "professional experience" with C#. Fortunately the first spec of C# * was published in 1999 and I had read it then -- I now have ten years experience with C#, even though I've only had a compiler for it for seven. :-D * Co-worker: Isn't that the new Microsoft Java?
Sure, but you have had a C# IDE (Notepad) for more than 20 years, haven't you? :)
Luc Pattyn
Have a look at my entry for the lean-and-mean competition; please provide comments, feedback, discussion, and don’t forget to vote for it! Thank you.
Local announcement (Antwerp region): Lange Wapper? Neen!
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Sure, but you have had a C# IDE (Notepad) for more than 20 years, haven't you? :)
Luc Pattyn
Have a look at my entry for the lean-and-mean competition; please provide comments, feedback, discussion, and don’t forget to vote for it! Thank you.
Local announcement (Antwerp region): Lange Wapper? Neen!
I generally don't use Notepad for program code (I do for XML and HTML). I prefer Edit; it handles TABs somewhat better.
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I generally don't use Notepad for program code (I do for XML and HTML). I prefer Edit; it handles TABs somewhat better.
Hey, who are you trying to fool? You don't even use TABs, see here[^] for instance. :doh:
Luc Pattyn
Have a look at my entry for the lean-and-mean competition; please provide comments, feedback, discussion, and don’t forget to vote for it! Thank you.
Local announcement (Antwerp region): Lange Wapper? Neen!
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Hey, who are you trying to fool? You don't even use TABs, see here[^] for instance. :doh:
Luc Pattyn
Have a look at my entry for the lean-and-mean competition; please provide comments, feedback, discussion, and don’t forget to vote for it! Thank you.
Local announcement (Antwerp region): Lange Wapper? Neen!
Exactly -- I press the TAB key and Edit inserts (eight) SPACEs; Notepad inserts a dirty stinkin' TAB. X|
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Exactly -- I press the TAB key and Edit inserts (eight) SPACEs; Notepad inserts a dirty stinkin' TAB. X|
So you are cheating? when you want 8 spaces, you should enter 8 spaces. What's next? you using using directives, and having some tool to refactor them out? :laugh:
Luc Pattyn
Have a look at my entry for the lean-and-mean competition; please provide comments, feedback, discussion, and don’t forget to vote for it! Thank you.
Local announcement (Antwerp region): Lange Wapper? Neen!
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So you are cheating? when you want 8 spaces, you should enter 8 spaces. What's next? you using using directives, and having some tool to refactor them out? :laugh:
Luc Pattyn
Have a look at my entry for the lean-and-mean competition; please provide comments, feedback, discussion, and don’t forget to vote for it! Thank you.
Local announcement (Antwerp region): Lange Wapper? Neen!
Luc Pattyn wrote:
having some tool to refactor them out
Only if I have to maintain code written by others.
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I think I've deduced the logic they use to figure out these requirements... Hold on... It's coming to me... 1) Pick a random programmer in the company. Ask him what the next "cool" technology is. 2) Repeat with a few other programmers. Make a list. 3) Roll a d10 (10-sided die, for you non-gamers) to determine the years of experience 4) Subtract a d6 (6-sided die roll) if it's entry-level, or add a d6 if it's a senior position 5) Send to the recruitment agency And then the recruitment agency has their own process... 1) Completely ignore the supplied numbers, and flip a coin for "5" or "10" years experience, because obviously the company has no idea what they really want 2) From a hat filled with common acronyms and codes, pick 10-15 items and tack them on... Examples: VBA, ASP.NET, Joomla, COBOL, ISO9660, RFC1459, 802.11b 3) Make sure to add in "Strong communication skills", just to make sure the candidate knows he or she will have to interact with other members of the human race 4) Post! (Five points to anyone who knows which RFC that is without looking it up - Ah, memories)
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in? Developer, Author (Guardians of Xen)
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Well, yeah, but I've actually programmed clients for 1459... I never tried to brainwash a carrier pigeon :)
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in? Developer, Author (Guardians of Xen)