Why Jonny Can't Code
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Wow - do you know anything about programming at all ? Visual Basic is, along with C#, one of the most popular languages for Windows development today. The writer is an idiot. He must be looking for a specific version of BASIC. The problem with programming today, is that there's so much drag and drop, point and click, write no code stuff going on that people are taking contract work and hitting a wall the moment they find they need to write code after all, and hitting our ASP.NET forums predominantly, although I notice a real increase in the WPF forum of late. The problem is that people assume it's easier than it really is to write good code, or just plain don't care about good code, and are glad that todays GC environments allow them to write crap that won't actually crash the system, and then sell it.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
In my opinion the drag and drop, any mort can write code thing has really contributed to a lack of depth of knowledge. Often people I've hired or interviewed really know their framework and platform of choice really well but really don't understand how it works together and how the generated code works. So, when I have to hire contractors or consultants I come up with this as bit of a smoke test. I ask them to write me a Hello World app using their favorite language and framework. But, I have one condition, they can't use an IDE. I've found some really good people that way who are more efficient developers than I could ever hope to be. It doesn't really demonstrate a complete command of the inner workings but in my opinion it does show me that they aren't scared of diving into it if we need them to.
And above all things, never think that you're not good enough yourself. A man should never think that. My belief is that in life people will take you at your own reckoning. --Isaac Asimov Avoid the crowd. Do your own thinking independently. Be the chess player, not the chess piece. --Ralph Charell
modified on Tuesday, October 13, 2009 9:22 PM
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Why Jonny Can't Code[^] I think this guy's got a point. Things are very, maybe too complex for simple PRINT "Hello World!" type programs today. A lot of today's technologies are not very approachable... You don't start out mountain climbing by first tackling Mt. Everest. You start out much much smaller and work up to Mt. Everest. Where's the BASIC of today. Can you even get BASIC nowadays?
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Why Jonny Can't Code[^] I think this guy's got a point. Things are very, maybe too complex for simple PRINT "Hello World!" type programs today. A lot of today's technologies are not very approachable... You don't start out mountain climbing by first tackling Mt. Everest. You start out much much smaller and work up to Mt. Everest. Where's the BASIC of today. Can you even get BASIC nowadays?
If the mountain doesn't come to you, don't waste your time running after it. When you meet the mountain, you are already a good developer.
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Why Jonny Can't Code[^] I think this guy's got a point. Things are very, maybe too complex for simple PRINT "Hello World!" type programs today. A lot of today's technologies are not very approachable... You don't start out mountain climbing by first tackling Mt. Everest. You start out much much smaller and work up to Mt. Everest. Where's the BASIC of today. Can you even get BASIC nowadays?
I think one of the advantages of QuickBasic 4.5 was that it took up the whole screen. Most kids these days would probably find that annoying, but it certainly helped with focusing on programming without being distracted by Facebook and such. My days with QuickBasic were probably the ones I focused most intensely on programming. A little hard these days when I split my focus between programming and posting on CodeProject ;P
Visual Studio is an excellent GUIIDE.
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I'm sorry. The article does appear stupid to me, but I did fly off a little bit. I'm just not having a good day. The point appears to me to be that languages with line numbers and no OO are a better starting point than any modern language. I don't really agree. You can create a simple VB.NET project and write plenty of VB code, without having line numbers, which are only useful for arbitrary goto statements, something I don't think people need to learn about.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
What's an arbitrary GOTO statement?
Gary Kirkham Forever Forgiven and Alive in the Spirit The men said to them, "Why do you seek the living One among the dead? He is not here, but He has risen." Me blog, You read
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True, but you can ignore all that at first. One other problem we have today is people looking to do complex things, and who have not taken the time to learn simple things. C# or VB, a beginner should write one class console apps at first, in my book.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
Christian Graus wrote:
C# or VB, a beginner should write one class console apps at first, in my book.
Yes, but why should they have too? Wouldn't something more basic be a better zero-level? Remove even the concepts of classes and namespaces (and even datatypes) from the very early learning stages.
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What's an arbitrary GOTO statement?
Gary Kirkham Forever Forgiven and Alive in the Spirit The men said to them, "Why do you seek the living One among the dead? He is not here, but He has risen." Me blog, You read
I imagine an arbitrary goto would be one that goes to a certain line number. An explicit goto would then be one that goes to a line that has a label (or, a line that had its label explicitly declared).
Visual Studio is an excellent GUIIDE.
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aspdotnetdev wrote:
Better watch yourself, I'm still learning how to not kill people :menacing stare:
ROTFL !!!
aspdotnetdev wrote:
Anyway, my bet is those who have experienced the downside of an experience (e.g., burning your hand on the stove) are less likely to make that mistake again.
True, but most people who have written bad code, tend to continue to write it that way, in my experience.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
Christian Graus wrote:
most people who have written bad code, tend to continue to write it that way
Aside from just learning the bad way of doing things, they need 2 more things:
- They need to be "burned" by the bad way.
- They need to be pointed to a better way.
If they have all 3 of those and they still don't learn, they are just plain stupid.
Visual Studio is an excellent GUIIDE.
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It's right here[^] of course. It is really really cool. SmallBasic Small Basic is a project that's aimed at bringing "fun" back to programming. By providing a small and easy to learn programming language in a friendly and inviting development environment, Small Basic makes programming a breeze. Ideal for kids and adults alike, Small Basic helps beginners take the first step into the wonderful world of programming. * Small Basic derives its inspiration from the original BASIC programming language, and is based on the Microsoft .NET platform. It is really small with just 15 keywords and uses minimal concepts to keep the barrier to entry as low as possible. * The Small Basic development environment is simple, yet provides powerful modern environment features like Intellisense™ and instant context sensitive help. * Small Basic allows third-party libraries to be plugged in with ease, making it possible for the community to extend the experience in fun and interesting ways.
Ew. That's not the BASIC I learned. X|
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Christian Graus wrote:
C# or VB, a beginner should write one class console apps at first, in my book.
Yes, but why should they have too? Wouldn't something more basic be a better zero-level? Remove even the concepts of classes and namespaces (and even datatypes) from the very early learning stages.
PIEBALDconsult wrote:
Remove even the concepts of classes and namespaces
That seems key. Of course all those are good practice, but to a beginner they just want to dive in without worrying about unnecessary details. Get them interested, then teach them how to write better code.
Visual Studio is an excellent GUIIDE.
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dighn wrote:
and do "Hello World" in minutes.
Not much beats: 10 Print "Hello World" run Marc
I'm not overthinking the problem, I just felt like I needed a small, unimportant, uninteresting rant! - Martin Hart Turner
Marc Clifton wrote:
Not much beats: 10 Print "Hello World" run
C:\>echo Hello Marc
no line numbers, no special characters, no run command, file is optional, ... :)
Luc Pattyn
I only read code that is properly indented, and rendered in a non-proportional font; hint: use PRE tags in forum messages
Local announcement (Antwerp region): Lange Wapper? Neen!
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ahmed zahmed wrote:
Where's the BASIC of today.
Perl.
ahmed zahmed wrote:
Can you even get BASIC nowadays?
I have Turbo BASIC on 5.25" floppies. P.S. Also HP BASIC on my AlphaServers, but it's a shame that DEC abandoned the BASIC environment that I first learned on the high school's PDP-11. :sigh:
JB> type test.bas
10 A=5
20 B=4
30 C=A*B
40 PRINT C
50 END
JB> basic test.bas
JB> link test
JB> run test
20
JB>modified on Tuesday, October 13, 2009 8:46 PM
PIEBALDconsult wrote:
it's a shame that DEC abandoned the BASIC environment that I first learned on the high school's PDP-11
I could do a PDP-11 simulator for you. You would have to specify the specific model, as not all anomalies were documented well; I do recall "programs" copying themselves and running backwards on a PDP 11/45, something like MOV -(PC),-(PC) or whatever the exact syntax was. Do you still have an appropriate OS around, say RSX11M or D? :)
Luc Pattyn
I only read code that is properly indented, and rendered in a non-proportional font; hint: use PRE tags in forum messages
Local announcement (Antwerp region): Lange Wapper? Neen!
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You should ALWAYS peek before you poke.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
If you're going to poke anyway, why bother peeking?
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If you're going to poke anyway, why bother peeking?
I have to peek a little first in order to get excited enough for the poke to be effective.
Visual Studio is an excellent GUIIDE.
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Christian Graus wrote:
most people who have written bad code, tend to continue to write it that way
Aside from just learning the bad way of doing things, they need 2 more things:
- They need to be "burned" by the bad way.
- They need to be pointed to a better way.
If they have all 3 of those and they still don't learn, they are just plain stupid.
Visual Studio is an excellent GUIIDE.
I prefer the more gentle way of teaching them as much as you can and then being there to catch them, without them ever knowing it's you that fucked them over. It's the Elven way. :)
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Marc Clifton wrote:
Not much beats: 10 Print "Hello World" run
C:\>echo Hello Marc
no line numbers, no special characters, no run command, file is optional, ... :)
Luc Pattyn
I only read code that is properly indented, and rendered in a non-proportional font; hint: use PRE tags in forum messages
Local announcement (Antwerp region): Lange Wapper? Neen!
perl -e "print 'Hello, Luc!'
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PIEBALDconsult wrote:
it's a shame that DEC abandoned the BASIC environment that I first learned on the high school's PDP-11
I could do a PDP-11 simulator for you. You would have to specify the specific model, as not all anomalies were documented well; I do recall "programs" copying themselves and running backwards on a PDP 11/45, something like MOV -(PC),-(PC) or whatever the exact syntax was. Do you still have an appropriate OS around, say RSX11M or D? :)
Luc Pattyn
I only read code that is properly indented, and rendered in a non-proportional font; hint: use PRE tags in forum messages
Local announcement (Antwerp region): Lange Wapper? Neen!
Luc Pattyn wrote:
PDP-11 simulator
Hell no! (It ran RSTS V7.0-07 anyway) One place I worked had an old PDP-11 sitting idle and my boss asked if I wanted it. I had no room and couldn't afford the electricity so I said no. I'm pleased with the AlphaServers I have, though a MicroVAX and an Itanium would make nice additions. P.S. Oh, I forgot to mention, from what I can tell, OpenVMS VAX does have the BASIC environment.
modified on Tuesday, October 13, 2009 11:37 PM
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CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
Eugenicists don't deserve to have a good day.
ROTFL !!! How come you have started to pollute the lounge with this ignorant drivel ? I mean, I was happy to play with your retarded views in the back room, is that not enough for you anymore ?
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
Don't feed the trolls.
Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
Think inside the box! ProActive Secure Systems
I'm on-line therefore I am. JimmyRopes -
Luc Pattyn wrote:
PDP-11 simulator
Hell no! (It ran RSTS V7.0-07 anyway) One place I worked had an old PDP-11 sitting idle and my boss asked if I wanted it. I had no room and couldn't afford the electricity so I said no. I'm pleased with the AlphaServers I have, though a MicroVAX and an Itanium would make nice additions. P.S. Oh, I forgot to mention, from what I can tell, OpenVMS VAX does have the BASIC environment.
modified on Tuesday, October 13, 2009 11:37 PM
I studied Alpha in great detail long time ago (while selecting a RISC family for our own systems); never did a simulator for it, however I did a few other RISC ones. And I never used RSTS, in fact I completely forgot it ever existed. :)
Luc Pattyn
I only read code that is properly indented, and rendered in a non-proportional font; hint: use PRE tags in forum messages
Local announcement (Antwerp region): Lange Wapper? Neen!
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I'm sorry. The article does appear stupid to me, but I did fly off a little bit. I'm just not having a good day. The point appears to me to be that languages with line numbers and no OO are a better starting point than any modern language. I don't really agree. You can create a simple VB.NET project and write plenty of VB code, without having line numbers, which are only useful for arbitrary goto statements, something I don't think people need to learn about.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
It seems to me that you can't teach "structured programming" unless you've introduced the class to its opposite. Regardless of language, have the student(s) try to implement something with just if and goto for flow control. X| Then introduce patterns, like for and while loops (with if/goto), then progress to real for and while loops. On the other hand, you have to know your audience. If the class just wants to be able to write some simple programs then by all means skip all that. As far as any students who intend to be serious developers, I believe that experiencing "the olde ways" is very important. It's why we had to learn a little Assembly, Fortran, and COBOL.