Recommendations and professionalism
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How long after you've worked with someone are you willing to vouch for them (or say they suck) for a technical position? I ask, because I've seen an epidemic lately of people who worked with someone back in the .NET 1.0 days saying that the person isn't experienced (they were a new developer then). I've also seen a couple of people who will vouch for someone's skill (as a resume reference), when they haven't worked with that person for 5 years or more. To me, this seems pretty unprofessional. What sayeth the lounge? Does a recommendation (in terms of skill, not work ethic or other considerations) of someone that you have not worked with in years say more about you or the person? I personally wouldn't go more than a couple of years out in that regard (unless I'm regularly conversing with the person about coding) - it just seems a little likely to backfire. Will
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How long after you've worked with someone are you willing to vouch for them (or say they suck) for a technical position? I ask, because I've seen an epidemic lately of people who worked with someone back in the .NET 1.0 days saying that the person isn't experienced (they were a new developer then). I've also seen a couple of people who will vouch for someone's skill (as a resume reference), when they haven't worked with that person for 5 years or more. To me, this seems pretty unprofessional. What sayeth the lounge? Does a recommendation (in terms of skill, not work ethic or other considerations) of someone that you have not worked with in years say more about you or the person? I personally wouldn't go more than a couple of years out in that regard (unless I'm regularly conversing with the person about coding) - it just seems a little likely to backfire. Will
gantww wrote:
How long after you've worked with someone are you willing to vouch for them (or say they suck) for a technical position?
Interesting question. There are people I know whom I've worked with in the past who are top blokes, really funny, really nice people to have in the office. BUT, who are a total nightmare when it comes to development/testing. Because of this I won't ever recommend them to an employer - because it would reflect badly on me.
gantww wrote:
I personally wouldn't go more than a couple of years...
I think you can tell who is a good engineer or not - a good engineer is always a good engineer. If I ever recommend someone I will always vouch for the work that I have seen them do, and what they were capable of. Not anything after - that way you're in the clear.
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs." ~ Anon "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" ~ Albert Einstein Currently reading: 'The Greatest Show on Earth', by Richard Dawkins.
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How long after you've worked with someone are you willing to vouch for them (or say they suck) for a technical position? I ask, because I've seen an epidemic lately of people who worked with someone back in the .NET 1.0 days saying that the person isn't experienced (they were a new developer then). I've also seen a couple of people who will vouch for someone's skill (as a resume reference), when they haven't worked with that person for 5 years or more. To me, this seems pretty unprofessional. What sayeth the lounge? Does a recommendation (in terms of skill, not work ethic or other considerations) of someone that you have not worked with in years say more about you or the person? I personally wouldn't go more than a couple of years out in that regard (unless I'm regularly conversing with the person about coding) - it just seems a little likely to backfire. Will
Depends on a lot of factors. There are very few people I would straight out recommend, five-star-review style. When you work with people for a while, it's easy to mentally separate the true, hard-core geeks from the ones who just do it for a living. It's not the raw knowledge that's important, but the reactions to problems. For example, if you present a programmer with a seemingly-impossible situation, such as a limitation in a third-party API, or just a really difficult algorithm... Some people would look at it, groan, and think "Ugh, it's gonna be a long day"... Others would see it and think "Finally, a challenge! I bet I could think of a really cool way to solve this!" and dig into it. That second kind of thinking is what matters, to me, more than experience or syntax knowledge. I've met a fair number of programmers in my time, and very few of them fall into that category. Those are the ones I would flat-out recommend. As for the rest... "Yep, I worked with him at so-and-so... He seemed alright, and was good at X, Y, and Z, but I can't guarantee....." Guess I kinda went off-topic... I tend to ramble... Short answer: For the type I would flat-out recommend, I think 5 years is a decent number, unless I've stayed in contact with them. For the others, or after that timespan, I would never give a solid recommendation, but would present the facts as I remember them.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in? Developer, Author (Guardians of Xen)
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gantww wrote:
How long after you've worked with someone are you willing to vouch for them (or say they suck) for a technical position?
Interesting question. There are people I know whom I've worked with in the past who are top blokes, really funny, really nice people to have in the office. BUT, who are a total nightmare when it comes to development/testing. Because of this I won't ever recommend them to an employer - because it would reflect badly on me.
gantww wrote:
I personally wouldn't go more than a couple of years...
I think you can tell who is a good engineer or not - a good engineer is always a good engineer. If I ever recommend someone I will always vouch for the work that I have seen them do, and what they were capable of. Not anything after - that way you're in the clear.
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs." ~ Anon "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" ~ Albert Einstein Currently reading: 'The Greatest Show on Earth', by Richard Dawkins.
Agreed. Once a good engineer, someone is likely to maintain that path (because it's a lot of work and usually a labor of love). However, I wouldn't be nearly as comfortable saying that someone is a bad engineer. They might have had an attitude adjustment or a good mentor since last time. In fact, I knew a dev that talked badly about another guy we ended up hiring anyway (at a previous employer). Turns out when they had worked together before, the guy we hired had been having a flare up of clinical depression and was in the process of switching meds. He ended up being a great guy that got a lot done. He got through the depression stuff and did well afterward. The other guy was a liar who wasn't even bright enough to log into his machine remotely when he said he was working from home. But he would have been an awesome drinking buddy. His celebrity impersonations were particularly good, if not entirely safe for work.
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Depends on a lot of factors. There are very few people I would straight out recommend, five-star-review style. When you work with people for a while, it's easy to mentally separate the true, hard-core geeks from the ones who just do it for a living. It's not the raw knowledge that's important, but the reactions to problems. For example, if you present a programmer with a seemingly-impossible situation, such as a limitation in a third-party API, or just a really difficult algorithm... Some people would look at it, groan, and think "Ugh, it's gonna be a long day"... Others would see it and think "Finally, a challenge! I bet I could think of a really cool way to solve this!" and dig into it. That second kind of thinking is what matters, to me, more than experience or syntax knowledge. I've met a fair number of programmers in my time, and very few of them fall into that category. Those are the ones I would flat-out recommend. As for the rest... "Yep, I worked with him at so-and-so... He seemed alright, and was good at X, Y, and Z, but I can't guarantee....." Guess I kinda went off-topic... I tend to ramble... Short answer: For the type I would flat-out recommend, I think 5 years is a decent number, unless I've stayed in contact with them. For the others, or after that timespan, I would never give a solid recommendation, but would present the facts as I remember them.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in? Developer, Author (Guardians of Xen)
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How long after you've worked with someone are you willing to vouch for them (or say they suck) for a technical position? I ask, because I've seen an epidemic lately of people who worked with someone back in the .NET 1.0 days saying that the person isn't experienced (they were a new developer then). I've also seen a couple of people who will vouch for someone's skill (as a resume reference), when they haven't worked with that person for 5 years or more. To me, this seems pretty unprofessional. What sayeth the lounge? Does a recommendation (in terms of skill, not work ethic or other considerations) of someone that you have not worked with in years say more about you or the person? I personally wouldn't go more than a couple of years out in that regard (unless I'm regularly conversing with the person about coding) - it just seems a little likely to backfire. Will
Give it to them strait up and let them decide what a recommendation that says you haven't worked with them for a number of years is worth. Make sure the person asking for your recommendation is aware of how you're going to caveat it. I haven't worked with John Doe for the last X years. During the Y years prior he was...
3x12=36 2x12=24 1x12=12 0x12=18
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How long after you've worked with someone are you willing to vouch for them (or say they suck) for a technical position? I ask, because I've seen an epidemic lately of people who worked with someone back in the .NET 1.0 days saying that the person isn't experienced (they were a new developer then). I've also seen a couple of people who will vouch for someone's skill (as a resume reference), when they haven't worked with that person for 5 years or more. To me, this seems pretty unprofessional. What sayeth the lounge? Does a recommendation (in terms of skill, not work ethic or other considerations) of someone that you have not worked with in years say more about you or the person? I personally wouldn't go more than a couple of years out in that regard (unless I'm regularly conversing with the person about coding) - it just seems a little likely to backfire. Will
I don't vouch for people professionally unless they have physically proved their merit beyond a doubt. I will however, give personal professional recommendations. My spiel is usually the following: "I have not been responsible for his or her code so I cannot speak for the code quality, however, [insert name here] always shows up on-time, has a positive attitude, and a willingness and desire to perform tasks as assigned" (if appropriate of course) To be honest, asking someone to vouch for you should be HUGE! Unfortunately, these days it has become so watered down by people feeling bad when someone says no to a reference. If a colleague declines you a reference because they haven't known you long enough it is a good thing and it likely means that reference is worth something.
Need custom software developed? I do custom programming based primarily on MS tools with an emphasis on C# development and consulting. A man said to the universe: "Sir I exist!" "However," replied the universe, "The fact has not created in me A sense of obligation." --Stephen Crane
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Give it to them strait up and let them decide what a recommendation that says you haven't worked with them for a number of years is worth. Make sure the person asking for your recommendation is aware of how you're going to caveat it. I haven't worked with John Doe for the last X years. During the Y years prior he was...
3x12=36 2x12=24 1x12=12 0x12=18
Yeah, that's probably the best way to go. I'd hate to have someone try to write a recommendation for me based on my code from 3 or 4 years ago. I mean, I still write crap sometimes, but at least it's loosely-coupled crap now. Much less 5 or more years ago.
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How long after you've worked with someone are you willing to vouch for them (or say they suck) for a technical position? I ask, because I've seen an epidemic lately of people who worked with someone back in the .NET 1.0 days saying that the person isn't experienced (they were a new developer then). I've also seen a couple of people who will vouch for someone's skill (as a resume reference), when they haven't worked with that person for 5 years or more. To me, this seems pretty unprofessional. What sayeth the lounge? Does a recommendation (in terms of skill, not work ethic or other considerations) of someone that you have not worked with in years say more about you or the person? I personally wouldn't go more than a couple of years out in that regard (unless I'm regularly conversing with the person about coding) - it just seems a little likely to backfire. Will
I would always recommend somebody based on ability, not current skills, with a caveat that I had not worked with them for a while and things may have changed.
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How long after you've worked with someone are you willing to vouch for them (or say they suck) for a technical position? I ask, because I've seen an epidemic lately of people who worked with someone back in the .NET 1.0 days saying that the person isn't experienced (they were a new developer then). I've also seen a couple of people who will vouch for someone's skill (as a resume reference), when they haven't worked with that person for 5 years or more. To me, this seems pretty unprofessional. What sayeth the lounge? Does a recommendation (in terms of skill, not work ethic or other considerations) of someone that you have not worked with in years say more about you or the person? I personally wouldn't go more than a couple of years out in that regard (unless I'm regularly conversing with the person about coding) - it just seems a little likely to backfire. Will
gantww wrote:
I ask, because I've seen an epidemic lately of people who worked with someone back in the .NET 1.0 days saying that the person isn't experienced (they were a new developer then). I've also seen a couple of people who will vouch for someone's skill (as a resume reference), when they haven't worked with that person for 5 years or more. To me, this seems pretty unprofessional
Seems like that is a reflection of the person that is doing the recommending and has nothing to do with the person being vouched for. A good technical person including those that have recently moved into management are not necessarily a good judge of the apptitude of other people (versus judging work product.) So you must learn whose opinion to respect in that regard. As for not having worked with someone for a while, excluding mental breakdowns, I wouldn't expect someone to get worse after working in the industry for more years. And for the most part I suspect that actual "professional" licensed professions (medical, engineering, etc) do not presume that either.
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gantww wrote:
I ask, because I've seen an epidemic lately of people who worked with someone back in the .NET 1.0 days saying that the person isn't experienced (they were a new developer then). I've also seen a couple of people who will vouch for someone's skill (as a resume reference), when they haven't worked with that person for 5 years or more. To me, this seems pretty unprofessional
Seems like that is a reflection of the person that is doing the recommending and has nothing to do with the person being vouched for. A good technical person including those that have recently moved into management are not necessarily a good judge of the apptitude of other people (versus judging work product.) So you must learn whose opinion to respect in that regard. As for not having worked with someone for a while, excluding mental breakdowns, I wouldn't expect someone to get worse after working in the industry for more years. And for the most part I suspect that actual "professional" licensed professions (medical, engineering, etc) do not presume that either.
Don't ask me for a recommendation. I have a boilerplate: "Mr. Jones has highly developed skills. If you hire him, your development will never be the same again. I would say that you will be very lucky, if you can get him to work on your projects..." It goes on for a bit in the same vein. :-D
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