How to catch a sniper
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I find it incredible that people in the D.C. area see their own countrymen as more of a threat than they do Islamic fundamentalists. Their first knee jerk reaction is to look for lunatic red necks. I find it highly improbable that some lone gunman is driving around a crowded metropolitan area in a big white truck, parking for a significant period of time in some open place, shooting people and driving away without being noticed, and he has done it ten (?) times now. Very unlikely. This "sniper" is obviously a group of people working as a team. A target spotter, a driver, a gunman and a look out. The vehicle probably does not even stop, the target is hit as they drive by. The attacks are being made in and around our national capital, most targets have been at gas stations against people from all walks of life. That fits no profile any home grown terrorist is likely to pursue. Also, these attacks coincide with an increase in terrorist activity elsewhere around the world. My money is on Islamic terrorists. I'm not a real reverend, I just play one on CP.
He is doing this for the thrill and for what ever other reason. He is probably a psychopath and this is the only way that he can feel any feelings. This guy seems very similar to the Zodiac killer of the late 1960's (he was never caught BTW).
Build a man a fire, and he will be warm for a day
Light a man on fire, and he will be warm for the rest of his life! -
He is doing this for the thrill and for what ever other reason. He is probably a psychopath and this is the only way that he can feel any feelings. This guy seems very similar to the Zodiac killer of the late 1960's (he was never caught BTW).
Build a man a fire, and he will be warm for a day
Light a man on fire, and he will be warm for the rest of his life!Paul Watt (kilowatt) wrote: He is doing this for the thrill and for what ever other reason. He is probably a psychopath and this is the only way that he can feel any feelings. This guy seems very similar to the Zodiac killer of the late 1960's (he was never caught BTW). I don't discount that possibility. Those kind of people are cetainly out there. Still, the symbolism bothers me - American military ammunition (Firing our own bullets back at us. True snipers use easily available, heavier caliber, longer range, more deadly ammo ), gas stations (Symbolic of our dependence on the Islamic world, and of the fuel of our civilization), national capital (they can penetrate to the heart of our culture at will), all synchronized with increased terrorism overseas. I'm not a real reverend, I just play one on CP.
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Johnny Got His Gun, is one my favorite books. Haunted me for months after I read it. Still, the great evil of the 1950's was Communism, not McCarthyism (sp?) McCarthy may have been a bad choice to prosecute the issue, but at a time when communism threatened the world, finding out the the extent to which Hollywood may have been pushing its basic philosophy was a prudent act. I'm sure no one would have been concerned if it had been Nazi's we were "persecuting". Communists, Nazis - they are all the same to me. Communism represents a much more profound danger to my freedoms than McCarthism ever did. I'm not a real reverend, I just play one on CP.
Reverend Stan wrote: Johnny Got His Gun, is one my favorite books. I got to know it because it is the basis for Metallica's 'One'. Reverend Stan wrote: Still, the great evil of the 1950's was Communism, not McCarthyism (sp?) No, you're wrong. Stalin was dead in the early 50's as I recall, after Stalin the system took a long time to atrophy, but was never the evil it was prior, and then it was an evil mainly to it's own citizens. True, no-one died as a result of the McCarthy trials, but they are an example of a country that abandons it's freedoms all too easily in pursuit of an imaginary enemy. Reverend Stan wrote: but at a time when communism threatened the world, finding out the the extent to which Hollywood may have been pushing its basic philosophy was a prudent act. It was idiocy, plain and simple. Dalton Trumbo was no communist, but he was a principled man who saw that the trials violated his rights as a citizen and he went to jail on principle. Charlie Chaplin was another who was falsely accused at this time, in fact he was kicked out of the US. Reverend Stan wrote: I'm sure no one would have been concerned if it had been Nazi's we were "persecuting". Communists, Nazis - they are all the same to me. It's pretty clear that you're the result of an upbringing full of John Wayne movies and short on perspective, and I can hardly blame you for that. Reverend Stan wrote: Communism represents a much more profound danger to my freedoms than McCarthism ever did. McCarthyism shows that it's your own government you have to watch in order to protect your freedoms. And the pop gun in your closet is not able to make the slightest iota of difference if your government decides to tell you that in order to be free, you must submit your freedom to them. They had the 'right' to bear arms in the 50's, also. Christian Hey, at least Logo had, at it's inception, a mechanical turtle. VB has always lacked even that... - Shog9 04-09-2002 During last 10 years, with invention of VB and similar programming environments, every ill-educated moron became able to develop software. - Alex E. - 12-Sept-2002
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Reverend Stan wrote: Johnny Got His Gun, is one my favorite books. I got to know it because it is the basis for Metallica's 'One'. Reverend Stan wrote: Still, the great evil of the 1950's was Communism, not McCarthyism (sp?) No, you're wrong. Stalin was dead in the early 50's as I recall, after Stalin the system took a long time to atrophy, but was never the evil it was prior, and then it was an evil mainly to it's own citizens. True, no-one died as a result of the McCarthy trials, but they are an example of a country that abandons it's freedoms all too easily in pursuit of an imaginary enemy. Reverend Stan wrote: but at a time when communism threatened the world, finding out the the extent to which Hollywood may have been pushing its basic philosophy was a prudent act. It was idiocy, plain and simple. Dalton Trumbo was no communist, but he was a principled man who saw that the trials violated his rights as a citizen and he went to jail on principle. Charlie Chaplin was another who was falsely accused at this time, in fact he was kicked out of the US. Reverend Stan wrote: I'm sure no one would have been concerned if it had been Nazi's we were "persecuting". Communists, Nazis - they are all the same to me. It's pretty clear that you're the result of an upbringing full of John Wayne movies and short on perspective, and I can hardly blame you for that. Reverend Stan wrote: Communism represents a much more profound danger to my freedoms than McCarthism ever did. McCarthyism shows that it's your own government you have to watch in order to protect your freedoms. And the pop gun in your closet is not able to make the slightest iota of difference if your government decides to tell you that in order to be free, you must submit your freedom to them. They had the 'right' to bear arms in the 50's, also. Christian Hey, at least Logo had, at it's inception, a mechanical turtle. VB has always lacked even that... - Shog9 04-09-2002 During last 10 years, with invention of VB and similar programming environments, every ill-educated moron became able to develop software. - Alex E. - 12-Sept-2002
Christian Graus wrote: Stalin was dead in the early 50's as I recall, after Stalin the system took a long time to atrophy, but was never the evil it was prior, and then it was an evil mainly to it's own citizens. Stalin was evil because of communism not vice versa. It was the source of his power. Communism is an intrinsically evil system. It has no redeeming virtues. Christian Graus wrote: It's pretty clear that you're the result of an upbringing full of John Wayne movies and short on perspective, and I can hardly blame you for that. I belong to a culture which has defended its freedom for longer and more successfully than any other in human history. For far longer than the history of the U.S., in fact. I don't need lectures on the topic from Australians. I have a very clear, almost instinctive, perspective of what constitutes a threat to my way of life and my freedoms. McCarthy did not represent any threat to my freedoms in any way. McCarthyism did nothing to make me more dependent upon the government, therefore it represented no threat to me or mine. Being made dependent upon government is the only such threat I fear. To what ever extent John Wayne may have promulgated that fiercely held principle of all true American's, than God bless the man. (I was actually always more of a Clint Eastwood fan) Christian Graus wrote: McCarthyism shows that it's your own government you have to watch in order to protect your freedoms. And the pop gun in your closet is not able to make the slightest iota of difference if your government decides to tell you that in order to be free, you must submit your freedom to them. They had the 'right' to bear arms in the 50's, also. I am deeply concerned about my government's abuse of its constitutional authority. That's why I religiously vote for conservatives. I don't agree with the bastards on much, but at least they understand the constitution. I own no deadly weapons of any kind, pop gun or otherwise. I see no immediate need for one. I will simply not allow myself to belong to a disarmed public at the behest of the federal government, regardless of how ineffective our "pop guns" might be (which you remain wrong about, BTW). I expect the federal government to respect it's 2nd amendement restraints. What we do locally in terms of gun control is our own damned business, the Feds should stay out of it - and so should the Australians (I lament the NRA's attempts to infl
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Christian Graus wrote: Stalin was dead in the early 50's as I recall, after Stalin the system took a long time to atrophy, but was never the evil it was prior, and then it was an evil mainly to it's own citizens. Stalin was evil because of communism not vice versa. It was the source of his power. Communism is an intrinsically evil system. It has no redeeming virtues. Christian Graus wrote: It's pretty clear that you're the result of an upbringing full of John Wayne movies and short on perspective, and I can hardly blame you for that. I belong to a culture which has defended its freedom for longer and more successfully than any other in human history. For far longer than the history of the U.S., in fact. I don't need lectures on the topic from Australians. I have a very clear, almost instinctive, perspective of what constitutes a threat to my way of life and my freedoms. McCarthy did not represent any threat to my freedoms in any way. McCarthyism did nothing to make me more dependent upon the government, therefore it represented no threat to me or mine. Being made dependent upon government is the only such threat I fear. To what ever extent John Wayne may have promulgated that fiercely held principle of all true American's, than God bless the man. (I was actually always more of a Clint Eastwood fan) Christian Graus wrote: McCarthyism shows that it's your own government you have to watch in order to protect your freedoms. And the pop gun in your closet is not able to make the slightest iota of difference if your government decides to tell you that in order to be free, you must submit your freedom to them. They had the 'right' to bear arms in the 50's, also. I am deeply concerned about my government's abuse of its constitutional authority. That's why I religiously vote for conservatives. I don't agree with the bastards on much, but at least they understand the constitution. I own no deadly weapons of any kind, pop gun or otherwise. I see no immediate need for one. I will simply not allow myself to belong to a disarmed public at the behest of the federal government, regardless of how ineffective our "pop guns" might be (which you remain wrong about, BTW). I expect the federal government to respect it's 2nd amendement restraints. What we do locally in terms of gun control is our own damned business, the Feds should stay out of it - and so should the Australians (I lament the NRA's attempts to infl
Reverend Stan wrote: Stalin was evil because of communism not vice versa. Actually, Stalin's government was not communist. Reverend Stan wrote: Communism is an intrinsically evil system. It has no redeeming virtues. True communism is based on equality for all people, which is hardly evil. Reverend Stan wrote: I belong to a culture which has defended its freedom for longer and more successfully than any other in human history. See, I think you belong to a culture who, like the Russians, know that the best way to enslave a people is to tell them that they are free. Reverend Stan wrote: I don't need lectures on the topic from Australians. *laugh* Reverend Stan wrote: McCarthyism did nothing to make me more dependent upon the government, therefore it represented no threat to me or mine. So the fact that OTHER innocent Americans were oppressed does not register on your 'instictive' radar ? You may not need any lectures from Aussies, but we take better care of our mates than that. Reverend Stan wrote: (which you remain wrong about, BTW). This is the most astounding American fantasy of all. Christian Hey, at least Logo had, at it's inception, a mechanical turtle. VB has always lacked even that... - Shog9 04-09-2002 During last 10 years, with invention of VB and similar programming environments, every ill-educated moron became able to develop software. - Alex E. - 12-Sept-2002
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I thought that I came up with a plan to catch the sniper that has been the biggest nightmare of the local community (ok, now you all know where I live). Basically, we need to do the following: 1. Divide the region into small blocks (1-5 square miles each?). 2. Make up plans to control all roads on each block and may be neighboring blocks as well. 3. Divide the local police force into small teams, each of them is responsible for controlling a specific block, and it has to be done within a short time (1 minute?). 4. When the sniper hit again, immediately issue orders to all teams to stop and check all traffic on the suspected blocks. 5. All these can be simulated on a computer to see if there is any hole that the sniper can get through. Just when I was about to tell others my great idea, the local news channel reported that "the police said that they have come up with a emergency response plan that will cast the net on the sniper if he strikes again, they are not giving out specific details of the plan at this moment ...". What a bunch of morons! For such plan to work, you should not tell the sniper that you have a plan at all. I think the police should actually issue fake news to fool the sniper into believing that they are on the wrong track ...
Black Cat wrote: For such plan to work, you should not tell the sniper that you have a plan at all. I think the police should actually issue fake news What makes you so sure this is real news? Sometimes they do issue false information because they know that the media have no moral sense whatsoever and will gladly broadcast anything that will attract attention. Disinformation is anathema to a free society, but the liberal press has made it necessary... Word of the day: Rotundacrat
Extra Credit will be awarded for: Quasimobo... -
Reverend Stan wrote: Stalin was evil because of communism not vice versa. Actually, Stalin's government was not communist. Reverend Stan wrote: Communism is an intrinsically evil system. It has no redeeming virtues. True communism is based on equality for all people, which is hardly evil. Reverend Stan wrote: I belong to a culture which has defended its freedom for longer and more successfully than any other in human history. See, I think you belong to a culture who, like the Russians, know that the best way to enslave a people is to tell them that they are free. Reverend Stan wrote: I don't need lectures on the topic from Australians. *laugh* Reverend Stan wrote: McCarthyism did nothing to make me more dependent upon the government, therefore it represented no threat to me or mine. So the fact that OTHER innocent Americans were oppressed does not register on your 'instictive' radar ? You may not need any lectures from Aussies, but we take better care of our mates than that. Reverend Stan wrote: (which you remain wrong about, BTW). This is the most astounding American fantasy of all. Christian Hey, at least Logo had, at it's inception, a mechanical turtle. VB has always lacked even that... - Shog9 04-09-2002 During last 10 years, with invention of VB and similar programming environments, every ill-educated moron became able to develop software. - Alex E. - 12-Sept-2002
Christian Graus wrote: True communism is based on equality for all people, which is hardly evil. ...but when you add "whether they like it or not", then it becomes evil. "The folly of man is that he dreams of what he can never achieve rather than dream of what he can."
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Reverend Stan wrote: Stalin was evil because of communism not vice versa. Actually, Stalin's government was not communist. Reverend Stan wrote: Communism is an intrinsically evil system. It has no redeeming virtues. True communism is based on equality for all people, which is hardly evil. Reverend Stan wrote: I belong to a culture which has defended its freedom for longer and more successfully than any other in human history. See, I think you belong to a culture who, like the Russians, know that the best way to enslave a people is to tell them that they are free. Reverend Stan wrote: I don't need lectures on the topic from Australians. *laugh* Reverend Stan wrote: McCarthyism did nothing to make me more dependent upon the government, therefore it represented no threat to me or mine. So the fact that OTHER innocent Americans were oppressed does not register on your 'instictive' radar ? You may not need any lectures from Aussies, but we take better care of our mates than that. Reverend Stan wrote: (which you remain wrong about, BTW). This is the most astounding American fantasy of all. Christian Hey, at least Logo had, at it's inception, a mechanical turtle. VB has always lacked even that... - Shog9 04-09-2002 During last 10 years, with invention of VB and similar programming environments, every ill-educated moron became able to develop software. - Alex E. - 12-Sept-2002
Christian Graus wrote: Actually, Stalin's government was not communist. Only what Communism inevitably becomes. Christian Graus wrote: True communism is based on equality for all people, which is hardly evil. Enforced equality is the very definition of evil. Christian Graus wrote: See, I think you belong to a culture who, like the Russians, know that the best way to enslave a people is to tell them that they are free Sadly true for many modern "Americans" - setting around waiting for the government to make them all equal... Christian Graus wrote: So the fact that OTHER innocent Americans were oppressed does not register on your 'instictive' radar ? You may not need any lectures from Aussies, but we take better care of our mates than that. Not so much as a blip. Our constitution was never intended to be an absolute, unequivocal guarantee of any individual right to do anything. Mr. Trumbo should have understood that - and bought himself a gun. You define freedom for you and your mates as you see fit, I will do the same, and we will both live free and happy. Christian Graus wrote: This is the most astounding American fantasy of all. A fantasy I will forever cherish. For me, true freedom is to possess the will and the ability to take responsibility for my own welfare in my own way. "Responsible" and "free" are synonyms. Any extent to which I must look to a government source for my welfare represents a decrease in freedom. My concerns center around that principle, and yes I do feel threatened. :rose: I'm not a real reverend, I just play one on CP.
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Paul Watt (kilowatt) wrote: He is doing this for the thrill and for what ever other reason. He is probably a psychopath and this is the only way that he can feel any feelings. This guy seems very similar to the Zodiac killer of the late 1960's (he was never caught BTW). I don't discount that possibility. Those kind of people are cetainly out there. Still, the symbolism bothers me - American military ammunition (Firing our own bullets back at us. True snipers use easily available, heavier caliber, longer range, more deadly ammo ), gas stations (Symbolic of our dependence on the Islamic world, and of the fuel of our civilization), national capital (they can penetrate to the heart of our culture at will), all synchronized with increased terrorism overseas. I'm not a real reverend, I just play one on CP.
If we have to read anything into whatever small indices there may be, then I would think that the letter found by one of the victims that read something about "I am God" would transfer the blame from any Muslim fanatic to any (other than religious) psychopath or George Bush. "After all it's just text at the end of the day. - Colin Davies "For example, when a VB programmer comes to my house, they may say 'does your pool need cleaning, sir ?' " - Christian Graus
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If we have to read anything into whatever small indices there may be, then I would think that the letter found by one of the victims that read something about "I am God" would transfer the blame from any Muslim fanatic to any (other than religious) psychopath or George Bush. "After all it's just text at the end of the day. - Colin Davies "For example, when a VB programmer comes to my house, they may say 'does your pool need cleaning, sir ?' " - Christian Graus
jan larsen wrote: If we have to read anything into whatever small indices there may be, then I would think that the letter found by one of the victims that read something about "I am God" would transfer the blame from any Muslim fanatic to any (other than religious) psychopath You're correct, that doesn't seem to lend support to my theory. But, it could have been a ploy by the police to lure the sniper(s) to respond, or a ploy by the sniper(s) to through off the investigation. If it is Islamic terrorists, it would be to their advantage to make it appear to be a right wing nut or a psychopath. They know how eager our society is to suspect threats from that quarter. Let's face it, most American's in the D.C. area fear their own countrymen more than they fear bin Ladin. I'm not a real reverend, I just play one on CP.
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Black Cat wrote: For such plan to work, you should not tell the sniper that you have a plan at all. I think the police should actually issue fake news What makes you so sure this is real news? Sometimes they do issue false information because they know that the media have no moral sense whatsoever and will gladly broadcast anything that will attract attention. Disinformation is anathema to a free society, but the liberal press has made it necessary... Word of the day: Rotundacrat
Extra Credit will be awarded for: Quasimobo...Roger Wright wrote: What makes you so sure this is real news? If I wasn't sure then, I am sure now. As I drove to work this morning, the local tv was reporting how the police invoked the emergency response plan six times during the weekend, searching areas X, Y, Z, it all turned out to be false alarms, etc. The local law enforcement is almost as dum as the federal agencies. Wait a minute, I remembered that FBI and other feds are involved in the investigation, no wonder.
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Roger Wright wrote: What makes you so sure this is real news? If I wasn't sure then, I am sure now. As I drove to work this morning, the local tv was reporting how the police invoked the emergency response plan six times during the weekend, searching areas X, Y, Z, it all turned out to be false alarms, etc. The local law enforcement is almost as dum as the federal agencies. Wait a minute, I remembered that FBI and other feds are involved in the investigation, no wonder.
Black Cat wrote: Wait a minute, I remembered that FBI and other feds are involved in the investigation, no wonder. Yup. That would explain it. I find it interesting that everyone seems to have a theory about it, even though they know little about the case. One fellow I ran into this weekend claims to have mapped the first seven shootings in his atlas, and is sure that the eighth shooting will complete an eight-sided star (which he says is the symbol displayed in the ritual killings of the Manson family and other killers since). His theory is that once the star is finished the perp will set off a large bomb directly in the center. I didn't have the heart to tell him that there had already been 10 shootings by then. If we could gather all the bar-stool experts in the country together in one place, just think of all the world's problems we could solve!:laugh: It would be a lot cheaper than the Rand corporation, too. All we'd need is a cable tv link to CNN and a bunch of beer and pretzels... Word of the day: Rotundacrat
Extra Credit will be awarded for: Quasimobo... -
I thought that I came up with a plan to catch the sniper that has been the biggest nightmare of the local community (ok, now you all know where I live). Basically, we need to do the following: 1. Divide the region into small blocks (1-5 square miles each?). 2. Make up plans to control all roads on each block and may be neighboring blocks as well. 3. Divide the local police force into small teams, each of them is responsible for controlling a specific block, and it has to be done within a short time (1 minute?). 4. When the sniper hit again, immediately issue orders to all teams to stop and check all traffic on the suspected blocks. 5. All these can be simulated on a computer to see if there is any hole that the sniper can get through. Just when I was about to tell others my great idea, the local news channel reported that "the police said that they have come up with a emergency response plan that will cast the net on the sniper if he strikes again, they are not giving out specific details of the plan at this moment ...". What a bunch of morons! For such plan to work, you should not tell the sniper that you have a plan at all. I think the police should actually issue fake news to fool the sniper into believing that they are on the wrong track ...
Just out of curiosity, hoow many police officers would that require ? And don't forget in your simulation to allow for hornery drives who are in a hurry ! Would you like to meet my teddy bear ?
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Christian Graus wrote: True communism is based on equality for all people, which is hardly evil. ...but when you add "whether they like it or not", then it becomes evil. "The folly of man is that he dreams of what he can never achieve rather than dream of what he can."
phykell wrote: but when you add "whether they like it or not", then it becomes evil. How does this differ from pseudo democracy, if we like it or not ? Repeat: the Stalinist government was NOT communist. I don't support the idea of communism, because human nature makes it impossible. I just think we're fooling ourselves if we think our system of government is fair, representative of the people or just. It sure isn't perfect. Christian Hey, at least Logo had, at it's inception, a mechanical turtle. VB has always lacked even that... - Shog9 04-09-2002 During last 10 years, with invention of VB and similar programming environments, every ill-educated moron became able to develop software. - Alex E. - 12-Sept-2002
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Christian Graus wrote: Actually, Stalin's government was not communist. Only what Communism inevitably becomes. Christian Graus wrote: True communism is based on equality for all people, which is hardly evil. Enforced equality is the very definition of evil. Christian Graus wrote: See, I think you belong to a culture who, like the Russians, know that the best way to enslave a people is to tell them that they are free Sadly true for many modern "Americans" - setting around waiting for the government to make them all equal... Christian Graus wrote: So the fact that OTHER innocent Americans were oppressed does not register on your 'instictive' radar ? You may not need any lectures from Aussies, but we take better care of our mates than that. Not so much as a blip. Our constitution was never intended to be an absolute, unequivocal guarantee of any individual right to do anything. Mr. Trumbo should have understood that - and bought himself a gun. You define freedom for you and your mates as you see fit, I will do the same, and we will both live free and happy. Christian Graus wrote: This is the most astounding American fantasy of all. A fantasy I will forever cherish. For me, true freedom is to possess the will and the ability to take responsibility for my own welfare in my own way. "Responsible" and "free" are synonyms. Any extent to which I must look to a government source for my welfare represents a decrease in freedom. My concerns center around that principle, and yes I do feel threatened. :rose: I'm not a real reverend, I just play one on CP.
Reverend Stan wrote: Only what Communism inevitably becomes. I don't think it inevitable that it be as bad as Stalinism - it sure isn't that bad in Cuba, for example. Reverend Stan wrote: Enforced equality is the very definition of evil. For those on the upper levels of a system where some have and some do not, I suppose it is. Reverend Stan wrote: Our constitution was never intended to be an absolute, unequivocal guarantee of any individual right to do anything. That's not the point - the point is that your government trampling on it's citizens constitutional rights is fine by you if it does not affect you personally, and if it is in pursuit of some 'greater evil'. Christian Hey, at least Logo had, at it's inception, a mechanical turtle. VB has always lacked even that... - Shog9 04-09-2002 During last 10 years, with invention of VB and similar programming environments, every ill-educated moron became able to develop software. - Alex E. - 12-Sept-2002
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phykell wrote: but when you add "whether they like it or not", then it becomes evil. How does this differ from pseudo democracy, if we like it or not ? Repeat: the Stalinist government was NOT communist. I don't support the idea of communism, because human nature makes it impossible. I just think we're fooling ourselves if we think our system of government is fair, representative of the people or just. It sure isn't perfect. Christian Hey, at least Logo had, at it's inception, a mechanical turtle. VB has always lacked even that... - Shog9 04-09-2002 During last 10 years, with invention of VB and similar programming environments, every ill-educated moron became able to develop software. - Alex E. - 12-Sept-2002
Christian Graus wrote: How does this differ from pseudo democracy, if we like it or not ? In our "pseudo" democracy, we can leave the country anytime we want. Christian Graus wrote: Repeat: the Stalinist government was NOT communist. I hope you're not repeating that to me, because I don't need it repeating. "The folly of man is that he dreams of what he can never achieve rather than dream of what he can."
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Reverend Stan wrote: Only what Communism inevitably becomes. I don't think it inevitable that it be as bad as Stalinism - it sure isn't that bad in Cuba, for example. Reverend Stan wrote: Enforced equality is the very definition of evil. For those on the upper levels of a system where some have and some do not, I suppose it is. Reverend Stan wrote: Our constitution was never intended to be an absolute, unequivocal guarantee of any individual right to do anything. That's not the point - the point is that your government trampling on it's citizens constitutional rights is fine by you if it does not affect you personally, and if it is in pursuit of some 'greater evil'. Christian Hey, at least Logo had, at it's inception, a mechanical turtle. VB has always lacked even that... - Shog9 04-09-2002 During last 10 years, with invention of VB and similar programming environments, every ill-educated moron became able to develop software. - Alex E. - 12-Sept-2002
Christian Graus wrote: I don't think it inevitable that it be as bad as Stalinism - it sure isn't that bad in Cuba, for example. OK, you have me there. Castro is not *as* bad as Stalin. How would you rate Mao? Christian Graus wrote: For those on the upper levels of a system where some have and some do not, I suppose it is. How about those at the lower level who have the desire and the ability to get to the top by their own effort? Forcing them to "stay in their place" despite their desire and ability seems pretty danged evil to me. You give every indication of being a more skilled programmer than I am, should the government force equality upon us where none actually exists? How about if I put in a lot of extra effort and come up with something really great? Are we still equal? Isn't my extra effort worth the additional reward I would gain within a capitalistic system, or does my extra effort buy me nothing more than more equality? If so, why bother? Christian Graus wrote: That's not the point - the point is that your government trampling on it's citizens constitutional rights is fine by you if it does not affect you personally, and if it is in pursuit of some 'greater evil'. It is just a difference of opinion concerning what constitutes a right. Through out most of U.S. history, includeing the 1950's, the principles of Jeffersonian Democracy ruled that each state and community had the authority, via the 1st Amendment, to determine the precise definition of what consitutes "free speech", etc. I had that right, Trumbo had that right - no one was taking that away from him. It was not an absolute right, it was relative to the political opinions of those you shared your community with. If we thought flag burning (or "communist speech", or whatever ) did not represent free speech than we could outlaw it at the local level and the first amendement assured us that the Federal government would have no power to interfer with our local decision. Trumbo could have at any time gone to his home town and done the same thing with his fellow citizens. Did McCarthy go beyond his constitutional authority? Of course he did. He was obviously a sick man and should have been replaced long before he was. However, nothing he did represented a threat to the Jeffersonian principle of a right to free speech as it would have been understood by most Americans at the time. That threat exists now, as the supreme c
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Christian Graus wrote: I don't think it inevitable that it be as bad as Stalinism - it sure isn't that bad in Cuba, for example. OK, you have me there. Castro is not *as* bad as Stalin. How would you rate Mao? Christian Graus wrote: For those on the upper levels of a system where some have and some do not, I suppose it is. How about those at the lower level who have the desire and the ability to get to the top by their own effort? Forcing them to "stay in their place" despite their desire and ability seems pretty danged evil to me. You give every indication of being a more skilled programmer than I am, should the government force equality upon us where none actually exists? How about if I put in a lot of extra effort and come up with something really great? Are we still equal? Isn't my extra effort worth the additional reward I would gain within a capitalistic system, or does my extra effort buy me nothing more than more equality? If so, why bother? Christian Graus wrote: That's not the point - the point is that your government trampling on it's citizens constitutional rights is fine by you if it does not affect you personally, and if it is in pursuit of some 'greater evil'. It is just a difference of opinion concerning what constitutes a right. Through out most of U.S. history, includeing the 1950's, the principles of Jeffersonian Democracy ruled that each state and community had the authority, via the 1st Amendment, to determine the precise definition of what consitutes "free speech", etc. I had that right, Trumbo had that right - no one was taking that away from him. It was not an absolute right, it was relative to the political opinions of those you shared your community with. If we thought flag burning (or "communist speech", or whatever ) did not represent free speech than we could outlaw it at the local level and the first amendement assured us that the Federal government would have no power to interfer with our local decision. Trumbo could have at any time gone to his home town and done the same thing with his fellow citizens. Did McCarthy go beyond his constitutional authority? Of course he did. He was obviously a sick man and should have been replaced long before he was. However, nothing he did represented a threat to the Jeffersonian principle of a right to free speech as it would have been understood by most Americans at the time. That threat exists now, as the supreme c
Stan Shannon wrote: OK, you have me there. Castro is not *as* bad as Stalin. How would you rate Mao? I don't think it matters, I think we've agreed that Communism does not automatically lead to Stalinism. Mao essentially sat at Stalins feet, and then tried to out-Stalin him. Stan Shannon wrote: How about those at the lower level who have the desire and the ability to get to the top by their own effort? What about them ? I'm playing the Devil's Advocate here, and moving well beyond my personal opinion in doing so, but assuming we all got paid roughly the same, does that mean that we would not try to do well ? I try to be the best I can be because I find it satisfying, not because I expect to get paid more. Stan Shannon wrote: How about if I put in a lot of extra effort and come up with something really great? Are we still equal? Isn't my extra effort worth the additional reward I would gain within a capitalistic system, or does my extra effort buy me nothing more than more equality? If so, why bother? I agree in part, but would you try to do well or improve yourself just because of money ? No other reason ? Stan Shannon wrote: However, nothing he did represented a threat to the Jeffersonian principle of a right to free speech as it would have been understood by most Americans at the time. I don't see how the Jeffersonian principle is supposed to be comfort to peopel wrongly ostracised, or how it means that in effect you have no freedom of speech at all, because when Trumbo rightly pointed out that some ammendment or other was being violated, he suffered for it. Stan Shannon wrote: That threat exists now, as the supreme court decides for us what constitutes free speech. What you probably fail to see is that these sort of things are cyclical. In the 50's your government went too far in one direction, political correctness has it moving too far in the other. It will swing back, and at every point along the curve, you will remain free to do whatevere your government decides to allow you to do. I'm not suggesting I am any better off in this regard, although I think that Australians are a lot less religious about their country, although still patriotic, and that the net result is a little more level-headedness. Christian Hey, at least Logo had, at it's inception, a mechanical turtle. VB has always lacked even that... - Shog9
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Stan Shannon wrote: OK, you have me there. Castro is not *as* bad as Stalin. How would you rate Mao? I don't think it matters, I think we've agreed that Communism does not automatically lead to Stalinism. Mao essentially sat at Stalins feet, and then tried to out-Stalin him. Stan Shannon wrote: How about those at the lower level who have the desire and the ability to get to the top by their own effort? What about them ? I'm playing the Devil's Advocate here, and moving well beyond my personal opinion in doing so, but assuming we all got paid roughly the same, does that mean that we would not try to do well ? I try to be the best I can be because I find it satisfying, not because I expect to get paid more. Stan Shannon wrote: How about if I put in a lot of extra effort and come up with something really great? Are we still equal? Isn't my extra effort worth the additional reward I would gain within a capitalistic system, or does my extra effort buy me nothing more than more equality? If so, why bother? I agree in part, but would you try to do well or improve yourself just because of money ? No other reason ? Stan Shannon wrote: However, nothing he did represented a threat to the Jeffersonian principle of a right to free speech as it would have been understood by most Americans at the time. I don't see how the Jeffersonian principle is supposed to be comfort to peopel wrongly ostracised, or how it means that in effect you have no freedom of speech at all, because when Trumbo rightly pointed out that some ammendment or other was being violated, he suffered for it. Stan Shannon wrote: That threat exists now, as the supreme court decides for us what constitutes free speech. What you probably fail to see is that these sort of things are cyclical. In the 50's your government went too far in one direction, political correctness has it moving too far in the other. It will swing back, and at every point along the curve, you will remain free to do whatevere your government decides to allow you to do. I'm not suggesting I am any better off in this regard, although I think that Australians are a lot less religious about their country, although still patriotic, and that the net result is a little more level-headedness. Christian Hey, at least Logo had, at it's inception, a mechanical turtle. VB has always lacked even that... - Shog9
I guess my closing comments for this thread would be: Christian Graus wrote: I don't think it matters, I think we've agreed that Communism does not automatically lead to Stalinism. Mao essentially sat at Stalins feet, and then tried to out-Stalin him. I think communism works best the smaller the commune. As the commune grows larger ever greater exertions of power must be applied to accomplish social goals. Christian Graus wrote: I agree in part, but would you try to do well or improve yourself just because of money ? No other reason ? Maybe. But it only takes a few people who are willing to set back while you and I do all the work to gum up the entire machine. Hunger is a great motivator - that is why capitalism works. Even the laziest bum will do something productive if he knows he will starve otherwise. Christian Graus wrote: I don't see how the Jeffersonian principle is supposed to be comfort to peopel wrongly ostracised, or how it means that in effect you have no freedom of speech at all, because when Trumbo rightly pointed out that some ammendment or other was being violated, he suffered for it. Trumbo got a raw deal, our system is not perfect, McCarthy prooved that, but the extremes of McCarthyism did not represent a threat to any freedoms that I consider important. And further that we had a legitimate right to be concerned about the forces of communism. McCarthy never represented the threat that communism (Stalinism if you prefer) did. Sorry Dalton got burned in the hysteria, but its a cruel world, shit happens. Christian Graus wrote: What you probably fail to see is that these sort of things are cyclical. In the 50's your government went too far in one direction, political correctness has it moving too far in the other. It will swing back, and at every point along the curve, you will remain free to do whatevere your government decides to allow you to do. I'm not suggesting I am any better off in this regard, although I think that Australians are a lot less religious about their country, although still patriotic, and that the net result is a little more level-headedness. Obviously it is cyclical, but perhaps only because non-level headed contrarians like me begin providing the friction necessary to force it back. But don't worry, I'll be there to catch it on the other side when the time comes. "Any clod can have the facts, but having
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I thought that I came up with a plan to catch the sniper that has been the biggest nightmare of the local community (ok, now you all know where I live). Basically, we need to do the following: 1. Divide the region into small blocks (1-5 square miles each?). 2. Make up plans to control all roads on each block and may be neighboring blocks as well. 3. Divide the local police force into small teams, each of them is responsible for controlling a specific block, and it has to be done within a short time (1 minute?). 4. When the sniper hit again, immediately issue orders to all teams to stop and check all traffic on the suspected blocks. 5. All these can be simulated on a computer to see if there is any hole that the sniper can get through. Just when I was about to tell others my great idea, the local news channel reported that "the police said that they have come up with a emergency response plan that will cast the net on the sniper if he strikes again, they are not giving out specific details of the plan at this moment ...". What a bunch of morons! For such plan to work, you should not tell the sniper that you have a plan at all. I think the police should actually issue fake news to fool the sniper into believing that they are on the wrong track ...
I cannot understand why police will pay for any information about killer!? Does it mean that most of US people will not share important information with police, if they are not paid for it? Does it mean that people do not care who is killed and who is killer, if they are not paid to take attention on it? Finally, maybe, it is tactic to confuse killer - To give some information about himself and take the money(than police will arrest him)? Any idea?