Buy a book, lmgtfy ... Quick answers
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I know we all get fed up of the tedious questions that have had absolutely no research attempts before posting, and if they had then the question would never have seen the light of day in the forums/quick answers. I also get equally fed up of seeing the same old 'buy a book', 'search google' etc answers that are reposted time and time again. Books, Google, blogs, articles are just resources which exactly what the forums/quick answers are supposed to be too IMO. It never bothered me too much before as the post disappeared of the recent pages rapidly, but now with the quick answers the crap post is bumped to the top of the list without an actual answer to the question. Surely if a member doesn't have an answer or isn't prepared to give one then a better solution would not be to answer at all so it can disappear into obscurity where it belongs?
Dave
BTW, in software, hope and pray is not a viable strategy. (Luc Pattyn)
Why are you using VB6? Do you hate yourself? (Christian Graus)If anything, we should answer them as soon as they show up, so they don't actually get bumped up (as they are already at the top). THEN they can fade into obscurity. Or, hopefully, be deleted by the author once they learn their ways and decide they will clean up CP by deleting their old crappy posts... but that would be in a perfect world... I imagine that most of these authors are just here to get a quick answer to a question they don't feel like answering themselves, and will probably not do anything else with their account once they find we won't do their work for them.
Visual Studio is an excellent GUIIDE.
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I know we all get fed up of the tedious questions that have had absolutely no research attempts before posting, and if they had then the question would never have seen the light of day in the forums/quick answers. I also get equally fed up of seeing the same old 'buy a book', 'search google' etc answers that are reposted time and time again. Books, Google, blogs, articles are just resources which exactly what the forums/quick answers are supposed to be too IMO. It never bothered me too much before as the post disappeared of the recent pages rapidly, but now with the quick answers the crap post is bumped to the top of the list without an actual answer to the question. Surely if a member doesn't have an answer or isn't prepared to give one then a better solution would not be to answer at all so it can disappear into obscurity where it belongs?
Dave
BTW, in software, hope and pray is not a viable strategy. (Luc Pattyn)
Why are you using VB6? Do you hate yourself? (Christian Graus)I can't stand to read the questions anymore. A handful of good ones still show up, but by the time i get to them i've read so many that lack all relevant details... look to be copy/pasted from work orders... or both... that i've lost the stomach to answer anything. Some people apparently haven't quite gotten to this point yet.
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DaveyM69 wrote:
Books, Google, blogs, articles are just resources which exactly what the forums/quick answers are supposed to be too IMO
Today someone posted this: if we entered data in the textbox that data should be shown in datagrid I answered: This is not really a question. I hope this is for a class, because it's plain you need to read some very basic books before you're able to produce any sort of code. You store the data from the textbox into the datasource that the grid binds to. If you don't understand what I just said, it's another sign that you need to read some basic books before trying to write any code. What other answer would you have me give ? The question is so basic, that one has to wonder what the odds are of the answer being understood. It's also so broad, that to answer it fully would require posting an explanation of data binding, of IEnumerable, of a ton of BASIC things that people really should turn to books for. In order to ask questions on a web forum, you need to have enough basic knowledge to be able to understand the answer. I've seen several people, just today, post again to ask for an answer with code, when they have been given as much of an answer as their question allows for, and been asked for more detail in order to provide a better answer ( with no reply ). I've seen many people ask the same questions over and over, ignoring the answers they were given only minutes before. I think that the site needs to stop people asking the same thing twice, or allow for posts to be sent to a purgatory where either a site owner can decide to unblock it, OR the original owner is prompted to provide more detail. If I've been saying 'buy a book' without giving an answer, it's becasue the question is so ludicrous as to be impossible to answer fully, and I figured most people who want to answer would use the 'unanswered questions' view, so I've been removing some of the pollution by replying to bad questions to indicate why they are bad.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
It's got to be extremely frustrating for Chris et al to find a happy medium. Even more so for those truly professional and heloful members like yourself who want to help, but are inundated by morons too lazy to help themselves. This is a recurring problem, and one I'm guilty of contributing to. I know I've asked questions that seem trivial, but I also know that I've done extensive searching and trying various things before resorting to posting a question. By the time I post a question here, I'm just about ready to throw in the towel, having exhausted every online resource I know of, and every book in my library. That's quite a lot of books, and doesn't include the ones I've had to store for lack of space. Most of the time I get the usual "buy a book" response, or from a couple of sources (who I've noticed have never written an article or answered any question) insulting comments. Once in a great while a few very thoughtful responses turn up, and they are very much appreciated. But they're getting rare. When this site started it was my first choice resource, and the responses were always first rate. Now I dread having to ask anything here because the quality of answers has degenerated as much as the average question. It seems that only the very experienced professionals needing assistance from equally talented experts are welcome; the rest of us are treated as idiots, unworthy of consideration. Hell, I've even resorted to trying to use MSDN again, and we all know how futile that can be. I don't know the answer, nor how one can sort out the truly stumped but hard searching from the simply lazy and stupid. I hope we can get it sorted out somehow... :sigh:
"A Journey of a Thousand Rest Stops Begins with a Single Movement"
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DaveyM69 wrote:
Books, Google, blogs, articles are just resources which exactly what the forums/quick answers are supposed to be too IMO
Today someone posted this: if we entered data in the textbox that data should be shown in datagrid I answered: This is not really a question. I hope this is for a class, because it's plain you need to read some very basic books before you're able to produce any sort of code. You store the data from the textbox into the datasource that the grid binds to. If you don't understand what I just said, it's another sign that you need to read some basic books before trying to write any code. What other answer would you have me give ? The question is so basic, that one has to wonder what the odds are of the answer being understood. It's also so broad, that to answer it fully would require posting an explanation of data binding, of IEnumerable, of a ton of BASIC things that people really should turn to books for. In order to ask questions on a web forum, you need to have enough basic knowledge to be able to understand the answer. I've seen several people, just today, post again to ask for an answer with code, when they have been given as much of an answer as their question allows for, and been asked for more detail in order to provide a better answer ( with no reply ). I've seen many people ask the same questions over and over, ignoring the answers they were given only minutes before. I think that the site needs to stop people asking the same thing twice, or allow for posts to be sent to a purgatory where either a site owner can decide to unblock it, OR the original owner is prompted to provide more detail. If I've been saying 'buy a book' without giving an answer, it's becasue the question is so ludicrous as to be impossible to answer fully, and I figured most people who want to answer would use the 'unanswered questions' view, so I've been removing some of the pollution by replying to bad questions to indicate why they are bad.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
Christian Graus wrote:
Today someone posted this: if we entered data in the textbox that data should be shown in datagrid I answered: ...
Hmm. Giving a lengthy answer might not be appreciated. You have to understand your readership, study their idiom, syntax, and distinctive elements of style, and reply in kind: Datagrid hungry. Put data in textbox or datagrid eat fingers.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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I know we all get fed up of the tedious questions that have had absolutely no research attempts before posting, and if they had then the question would never have seen the light of day in the forums/quick answers. I also get equally fed up of seeing the same old 'buy a book', 'search google' etc answers that are reposted time and time again. Books, Google, blogs, articles are just resources which exactly what the forums/quick answers are supposed to be too IMO. It never bothered me too much before as the post disappeared of the recent pages rapidly, but now with the quick answers the crap post is bumped to the top of the list without an actual answer to the question. Surely if a member doesn't have an answer or isn't prepared to give one then a better solution would not be to answer at all so it can disappear into obscurity where it belongs?
Dave
BTW, in software, hope and pray is not a viable strategy. (Luc Pattyn)
Why are you using VB6? Do you hate yourself? (Christian Graus)I guess it has something to do with the general attitude of the site visitors. Here on CP there is an historical record of how below-average questions are handled: insulting the poster, providing a sarcastic answer or simply writing wrong forum/bad question. I don't know why, but on StackOverflow this does not happen. A bad question gets either fixed in no time by other members who have enough points to do that, or removed/closed. There are no flames, no insults, no sarcastic answers. If you look at their list of unanswered questions, you can't even find a single one that is a bad question. That is a q/a site. CP is so much inferior to date for asking technical questions. BTW, if you google something programming-related, more often than not you find the answer on SO. Now, CP is still great for articles and, most importantly, for The Lounge we're in everyday, but maybe it's time to change the way q/a forums are handled as we know of vastly a superior model.
If you truly believe you need to pick a mobile phone that "says something" about your personality, don't bother. You don't have a personality. A mental illness, maybe - but not a personality. - Charlie Brooker My Photos/CP Flickr Group - ScrewTurn Wiki v3
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I can't stand to read the questions anymore. A handful of good ones still show up, but by the time i get to them i've read so many that lack all relevant details... look to be copy/pasted from work orders... or both... that i've lost the stomach to answer anything. Some people apparently haven't quite gotten to this point yet.
I sure if you were to Google or "read a book" you will be able to find the material you need to discover that life and the lounge is not just about you and your level of expertise. It is somewhat paranoid to think that most questions are asked just to annoy you. Someone with little coding experience also has little posting experience and could benefit being guided to some explanation on how to post. Be gentle, be kind and you will be happy.
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I sure if you were to Google or "read a book" you will be able to find the material you need to discover that life and the lounge is not just about you and your level of expertise. It is somewhat paranoid to think that most questions are asked just to annoy you. Someone with little coding experience also has little posting experience and could benefit being guided to some explanation on how to post. Be gentle, be kind and you will be happy.
ChrisBraum wrote:
It is somewhat paranoid to think that most questions are asked just to annoy you
Uh, yeah. Not to mention wildly egotistical. Questions are asked because users want quick answers, not advice, book suggestions, or help using a search engine. When they get an answer, they have succeeded. Why would they think at all about those reading and answering, unless doing so was necessary in order to obtain answers? So, as Davey notes, the only solution is to leave them unanswered.
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I guess it has something to do with the general attitude of the site visitors. Here on CP there is an historical record of how below-average questions are handled: insulting the poster, providing a sarcastic answer or simply writing wrong forum/bad question. I don't know why, but on StackOverflow this does not happen. A bad question gets either fixed in no time by other members who have enough points to do that, or removed/closed. There are no flames, no insults, no sarcastic answers. If you look at their list of unanswered questions, you can't even find a single one that is a bad question. That is a q/a site. CP is so much inferior to date for asking technical questions. BTW, if you google something programming-related, more often than not you find the answer on SO. Now, CP is still great for articles and, most importantly, for The Lounge we're in everyday, but maybe it's time to change the way q/a forums are handled as we know of vastly a superior model.
If you truly believe you need to pick a mobile phone that "says something" about your personality, don't bother. You don't have a personality. A mental illness, maybe - but not a personality. - Charlie Brooker My Photos/CP Flickr Group - ScrewTurn Wiki v3
Dario Solera wrote:
There are no flames, no insults, no sarcastic answers.
Well... There are. But they're not ubiquitous, generally discouraged, and as you note they die along with the question when it's closed and eventually deleted. IMHO, seeing a bad question closed goes a long way toward discouraging this: why beat a dead horse?
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I guess it has something to do with the general attitude of the site visitors. Here on CP there is an historical record of how below-average questions are handled: insulting the poster, providing a sarcastic answer or simply writing wrong forum/bad question. I don't know why, but on StackOverflow this does not happen. A bad question gets either fixed in no time by other members who have enough points to do that, or removed/closed. There are no flames, no insults, no sarcastic answers. If you look at their list of unanswered questions, you can't even find a single one that is a bad question. That is a q/a site. CP is so much inferior to date for asking technical questions. BTW, if you google something programming-related, more often than not you find the answer on SO. Now, CP is still great for articles and, most importantly, for The Lounge we're in everyday, but maybe it's time to change the way q/a forums are handled as we know of vastly a superior model.
If you truly believe you need to pick a mobile phone that "says something" about your personality, don't bother. You don't have a personality. A mental illness, maybe - but not a personality. - Charlie Brooker My Photos/CP Flickr Group - ScrewTurn Wiki v3
I was going to mention StackOverFlow, but I think Brother Dario's comments convey everything I had to say. Whether StackOverFlow can sustain the current level of broadly-distributed moderation that is working quite well, remains to be seen. I wish CP could clone Pete O'Hanlon ! best, Bill
"Many : not conversant with mathematical studies, imagine that because it [the Analytical Engine] is to give results in numerical notation, its processes must consequently be arithmetical, numerical, rather than algebraical and analytical. This is an error. The engine can arrange and combine numerical quantities as if they were letters or any other general symbols; and it fact it might bring out its results in algebraical notation, were provisions made accordingly." Ada, Countess Lovelace, 1844
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ChrisBraum wrote:
It is somewhat paranoid to think that most questions are asked just to annoy you
Uh, yeah. Not to mention wildly egotistical. Questions are asked because users want quick answers, not advice, book suggestions, or help using a search engine. When they get an answer, they have succeeded. Why would they think at all about those reading and answering, unless doing so was necessary in order to obtain answers? So, as Davey notes, the only solution is to leave them unanswered.
Then I imagine the lounge will become the exclusive domain of the "experts" until, of course, the "super experts" eliminate the "experts" and so on. I must say I find the snide remarks and character slaying by the "experts" far more annoying than the questions of the "ignorant". Maybe the time has come to try something new!
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I know we all get fed up of the tedious questions that have had absolutely no research attempts before posting, and if they had then the question would never have seen the light of day in the forums/quick answers. I also get equally fed up of seeing the same old 'buy a book', 'search google' etc answers that are reposted time and time again. Books, Google, blogs, articles are just resources which exactly what the forums/quick answers are supposed to be too IMO. It never bothered me too much before as the post disappeared of the recent pages rapidly, but now with the quick answers the crap post is bumped to the top of the list without an actual answer to the question. Surely if a member doesn't have an answer or isn't prepared to give one then a better solution would not be to answer at all so it can disappear into obscurity where it belongs?
Dave
BTW, in software, hope and pray is not a viable strategy. (Luc Pattyn)
Why are you using VB6? Do you hate yourself? (Christian Graus)Well said. Surely the whole point of the programming forums is to be able to ask a question and receive a quick and correct solution to a problem from people who have far more knowledge and experience than a lot of authors of programming books I've read and we all know that MSDN is 100% correct, right? As for the level of question asked - a new starter in programming might not neccesarily know that a certain question is dumb, thats why they're asking, the typical read a book/google it response does nothing but deter people who might genuinely be trying to learn, effectively 'dumbing down' the site and possibly making things worse. Having said that, persistent posting of the same question, do my homework for me questions and obviously wrong forum questions deserve all the stick they get!
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Then I imagine the lounge will become the exclusive domain of the "experts" until, of course, the "super experts" eliminate the "experts" and so on. I must say I find the snide remarks and character slaying by the "experts" far more annoying than the questions of the "ignorant". Maybe the time has come to try something new!
This isn't at all about the "experts" lording over the "ignorant". There are people who post very general, basic, poorly worded "questions" (if you can even call them that) and even when given some sort of solution just post again asking for the code. They don't want help in figuring it out, they want some person from the "magic answer forum" to do all their work for them. They aren't just ignorant, they are lazy and waste everybody's time.
The woods are lovely, dark, and deep But I have promises to keep and lines to code before I sleep, and lines to code before I sleep...
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I know we all get fed up of the tedious questions that have had absolutely no research attempts before posting, and if they had then the question would never have seen the light of day in the forums/quick answers. I also get equally fed up of seeing the same old 'buy a book', 'search google' etc answers that are reposted time and time again. Books, Google, blogs, articles are just resources which exactly what the forums/quick answers are supposed to be too IMO. It never bothered me too much before as the post disappeared of the recent pages rapidly, but now with the quick answers the crap post is bumped to the top of the list without an actual answer to the question. Surely if a member doesn't have an answer or isn't prepared to give one then a better solution would not be to answer at all so it can disappear into obscurity where it belongs?
Dave
BTW, in software, hope and pray is not a viable strategy. (Luc Pattyn)
Why are you using VB6? Do you hate yourself? (Christian Graus)Just my own personal opinion: I've been developing for a lot of years, and one of the greatest things about making this my career is that things are always changing, there are always new things to learn and use. I wouldn't have it any other way. So when I encounter some task that I cannot figure out, or I have to learn some new tidbit of knowledge, I try to do everything I can to figure it out on my own. I read through my own library of books (who amongst us don't have that extensive library - mine takes up two bookshelves), or search the web, even going as far as to read the manual or MSDN :) Along the way, I learn about the technology, a lot of times more than just the immediate problem. This exposes me to a lot more than just the one specific iota of knowledge that I needed, but really to gain understanding. I think that this is a lot better than getting that quick answer in some forum posting. I might get my answer, but do I really understand what I have gotten? This leads to yet more requests for quick answers, etc. which this thread seems to be centered around. There are still times when I need to post a question to a forum for help, but usually at that point I have researched the problem to the nth degree, and instead of a very general, broad and vague question, I can at least ask something a bit more succinct, with my own thoughts on possible solutions or directions. In the long run, it is about learning, not just getting pat answers. In this "internet age" it seems that everyone wants that instant answer to their questions, without making at least some level of effort to research and really learn what it is they are trying to do. Again, just my own opinion...
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This isn't at all about the "experts" lording over the "ignorant". There are people who post very general, basic, poorly worded "questions" (if you can even call them that) and even when given some sort of solution just post again asking for the code. They don't want help in figuring it out, they want some person from the "magic answer forum" to do all their work for them. They aren't just ignorant, they are lazy and waste everybody's time.
The woods are lovely, dark, and deep But I have promises to keep and lines to code before I sleep, and lines to code before I sleep...
Grant you that some may just want their homework done! But wouldn't it be quicker and less stressful to just ignore those you suspect of cheating and let others who want to answer do so?
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Then I imagine the lounge will become the exclusive domain of the "experts" until, of course, the "super experts" eliminate the "experts" and so on. I must say I find the snide remarks and character slaying by the "experts" far more annoying than the questions of the "ignorant". Maybe the time has come to try something new!
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Just my own personal opinion: I've been developing for a lot of years, and one of the greatest things about making this my career is that things are always changing, there are always new things to learn and use. I wouldn't have it any other way. So when I encounter some task that I cannot figure out, or I have to learn some new tidbit of knowledge, I try to do everything I can to figure it out on my own. I read through my own library of books (who amongst us don't have that extensive library - mine takes up two bookshelves), or search the web, even going as far as to read the manual or MSDN :) Along the way, I learn about the technology, a lot of times more than just the immediate problem. This exposes me to a lot more than just the one specific iota of knowledge that I needed, but really to gain understanding. I think that this is a lot better than getting that quick answer in some forum posting. I might get my answer, but do I really understand what I have gotten? This leads to yet more requests for quick answers, etc. which this thread seems to be centered around. There are still times when I need to post a question to a forum for help, but usually at that point I have researched the problem to the nth degree, and instead of a very general, broad and vague question, I can at least ask something a bit more succinct, with my own thoughts on possible solutions or directions. In the long run, it is about learning, not just getting pat answers. In this "internet age" it seems that everyone wants that instant answer to their questions, without making at least some level of effort to research and really learn what it is they are trying to do. Again, just my own opinion...
I couldn't agree more! I often spend many days researching and experimenting with something before I post my cry for help which is thankfully quite rare nowadays. I enjoy the process of learning/programming stimulating and nothing would bore me more than to be a copy and paste coder. I was questioning the treatment some questions are given here. This is a site for every one, including noobs who may be finding the most basic of concepts difficult to grasp and may not even know what search terms to [insert search engine of choice]. In addition, I found this site a long time ago as the result of a search. If a search engine leads me here, and this is a site with an area for programming questions, then surely I would expect it to be OK to ask instead of being told to search elsewhere or keep searching thereby implying this site is not the correct place to ask programming questions at all! If I need to ask for example how to get the text in a TextBox into my own variable in my limited broken English, that is just as valid as enquiring about complex implementations of MVVM or whatever. Buying and studying a book would answer both questions, but my resource of choice at that moment is CP so I see nothing wrong with asking either here.
Dave
BTW, in software, hope and pray is not a viable strategy. (Luc Pattyn)
Why are you using VB6? Do you hate yourself? (Christian Graus)