A word of thanks
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Oh, here in Brazil we have this T-shirt saying (in portuguese, obviously): "Jesus loves you, but I think you are a lamer!" My latest articles: Desktop Bob - Instant CP notifications XOR tricks for RAID data protection
A few days ago I read somewhere:
Jesus loves you, but I am his favourite.
Regards Thomas Sonork id: 100.10453 Thömmi
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Paul Watson wrote: If God came down from the heavens and told me homosexuality was wrong but did not say why, then I would still not change (I would be sh*t scared but I would not change.) If he told me why and I agreed with his logic then yes I would change. Suprisingly, I don't find that hard to believe. Such was the case when Jesus walked on the earth and performed miracles. However, in your view, you have to agree with it to make it right or wrong. That is moral relativism. What if my logic said that it was ok to rape, or murder, or have sex with a 5 year old child? Would that make it ok? As a philosopher once said, "Without God, everything is permissible." Paul Watson wrote: and if no god accepts me for that, then I say the gods are at fault not me. If your boss tell you to have X module finished by Friday and you don't do it and get fired, is that his fault, or yours? You have to believe in an objective truth if you are to have any morals at all. What one person thinks is right, another thinks is wrong. With this system, everything is permissible. It's ok for you to steal my car, it's ok for me to kill your mother. If you believe killing is wrong, but do not believe in God, then why is killing wrong? Jason Gerard "This almost never matters, except quite often."
What if my logic said that it was ok to rape, or murder, or have sex with a 5 year old child? Would that make it ok? As a philosopher once said, "Without God, everything is permissible." Yes, I know that's what Christian preachers like to say. But that's because you and they have built their ethical framework on Christianity. I think you're operating on a gross misconception if you think right and wrong can only be known when it is delivered to us through some Holy Book. (In fact, didn't God give mankind the capability to tell right from wrong - if so, then whether or not someone believes in God, they would still have a moral compass, right?) For those of us who don't believe in God, you might be surprised to learn that right and wrong are based on empthy for others and the "golden rule" (which exists in some form in most every religion - not just Christianity). I'm sort of curious about this then: do you accept marriage after someone has been divorced? Most Christians don't give it much thought, but most of them are also ignoring what the Bible says about it. Do you treat people who have been divorced and remarried as adulterers? That's what the Bible says about them. And it's in the NEW Testament - not the old. Do you avoid talking to them except to tell them to "stop living in sin"? Matthew 5:31-32 (Jesus' words) "It has been said, 'Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce.' But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, causes her to become an adulteress, and anyone who marries the divorced woman commits adultery. " Romans 7:2-3 "For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law of marriage. So then, if she marries another man while her husband is still alive, she is called an adulteress. But if her husband dies, she is released from that law and is not an adulteress, even though she marries another man. " ------------------------------------------ "Isn't it funny how people say they'll never grow up to be their parents, then one day they look in the mirror and they're moving aircraft carriers into the Gulf region?" - The Onion
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What if my logic said that it was ok to rape, or murder, or have sex with a 5 year old child? Would that make it ok? As a philosopher once said, "Without God, everything is permissible." Yes, I know that's what Christian preachers like to say. But that's because you and they have built their ethical framework on Christianity. I think you're operating on a gross misconception if you think right and wrong can only be known when it is delivered to us through some Holy Book. (In fact, didn't God give mankind the capability to tell right from wrong - if so, then whether or not someone believes in God, they would still have a moral compass, right?) For those of us who don't believe in God, you might be surprised to learn that right and wrong are based on empthy for others and the "golden rule" (which exists in some form in most every religion - not just Christianity). I'm sort of curious about this then: do you accept marriage after someone has been divorced? Most Christians don't give it much thought, but most of them are also ignoring what the Bible says about it. Do you treat people who have been divorced and remarried as adulterers? That's what the Bible says about them. And it's in the NEW Testament - not the old. Do you avoid talking to them except to tell them to "stop living in sin"? Matthew 5:31-32 (Jesus' words) "It has been said, 'Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce.' But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, causes her to become an adulteress, and anyone who marries the divorced woman commits adultery. " Romans 7:2-3 "For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law of marriage. So then, if she marries another man while her husband is still alive, she is called an adulteress. But if her husband dies, she is released from that law and is not an adulteress, even though she marries another man. " ------------------------------------------ "Isn't it funny how people say they'll never grow up to be their parents, then one day they look in the mirror and they're moving aircraft carriers into the Gulf region?" - The Onion
Brit wrote: I'm sort of curious about this then: do you accept marriage after someone has been divorced? Most Christians don't give it much thought, but most of them are also ignoring what the Bible says about it. Do you treat people who have been divorced and remarried as adulterers? That's what the Bible says about them. And it's in the NEW Testament - not the old. Do you avoid talking to them except to tell them to "stop living in sin"? Yes, anyone who marries after a divorce, unless they divorced their spouse because their spouse committed adultery are commiting aldultery themeselves. I would not have fellowship with that person. Most so called Christians don't read their Bible. Most so called Christians just listen to their "pastor" and don't search the scriptures to see what they say is true. (Acts 17:11) Brit wrote: In fact, didn't God give mankind the capability to tell right from wrong - if so, then whether or not someone believes in God, they would still have a moral compass, right?) Correct. And it's God that gave us that moral compass. I was not debating with Paul the Bible per se, but that God exists and that without God, there could be no morals. Jason Gerard "This almost never matters, except quite often."
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phykell wrote: I'm interested in reading about Anna's choice and that's what I'm here to do. Then why are you reading so deeply into this thread? Now go away, I tire of this argument. ;)
Jason Henderson
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"If you are going through hell, keep going." - Sir Winston ChurchillJason Henderson wrote: Then why are you reading so deeply into this thread? Now go away, I tire of this argument. There is no way this rates as an argument. So far, you've offered nothing but negative comments and unsubstantiated opinion. You've made outrageous claims such as "I'm proud to be intollerant" which is exactly why your opinion is so worthless, especially in this thread. As for finishing this "argument", that's fine with me, you have nothing left I wish to hear. "The folly of man is that he dreams of what he can never achieve rather than dream of what he can."
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Shog9 wrote: I never would have guessed. Neither would anyone else. TS people are very good at hiding their feelings and true gender - it's the way we cope in a role that's alien to us, but it's ultimately what dives us to depression or suicide if it's not sorted out before it's too late. The essay Why We Lie[^] by Janet Flecher sums up why this happens: The main reason we lie is denial. T*'s are the originators of the concept of denial. We are professionals at this. We wrote the book on denial. Denial is a type of lying. A extremely dangerous type. It starts with facts. We know deep inside that we are different. But we do not want to acknowledge that difference. Because to acknowledge that difference is to allow ourselves to be recognized. Perhaps only by ourselves. But still recognized and labeled. No one wants to be labeled Transgendered, or Transsexual or Crossdresser or Transvestite. These words have serious ramifications in society. Negative connotations. Severe connotations. Yet to admit internally that we are a T*, we are admitting that society will condemn us, has the right to condemn us. ....You see, I was taught that if you were different, it was your fault. And that you, and you alone, could correct that fault. You, and you alone, were responsible for that fault. I was faulted. I wanted so bad to be a girl. But I was born a boy. And I honestly thought that I was mentally ill. I was terrified of what would have happened if I told anyone. Terrified that any one would every find out. So I lied. I lied about who and what I was. I lied about my dreams. I lied about everything. I lied to everyone. Worse of all, I lied to myself. Shog9 wrote: I've got to admit, what you're doing seems very wrong to me, both in terms of abstract morality, and in terms of stomach-churning weirdness - not to be cruel about it, but you need serious help. How do you think I feel about it? :confused: Believe me I never wanted to be this way - I just wanted to be "normal". Now at least I accept I'm different and am doing what I can to heal myself. I'm sick to death of lying. Shog9 wrote: Still, it's been fun trying to guess who you were; you'd be amazed (or not...) who i had fingered at one point... ! Glad I could provide some entertainment. ;) Anna :rose
Anna :) wrote: Believe me I never wanted to be this way - I just wanted to be "normal". And this is the problem. From birth on, those around us force us into a mold, one which few people fit perfectly, and many do not fit at all. We are put in classes to learn about extraordinary people, doing extraordinary things in extraordinary ways, and then, after hearing about a man who looks at life and picks out the important bits, we are set to pointless tasks, writing the same reports, that will be judged in the same ways, by the same people, and then tossed in the same waste bins. We are told education is the cure for all life’s ills, and that those who buy more of it are better people. We pay so much for education we spend our lives in debt, working at jobs we hate to pay for knowledge we don’t use, but that’s ok – we can still turn up our noses at the high-school dropout putting up siding. Pop-culture tells us how we interact with other people, what appropriate hobbies are, how we can spend our free time, how much free time we can have… We’re supposed to be in a “relationship” from the time we hit puberty, but marriage is a shackle and should be shunned until we’re quite sure there’s no chance we can still have any fun. Being a jack-of-all-trades is good. Being a master of one is bad. Caring about other people, simply because they are people is right out. In the end, it’s what you do, not what you’re given. I know men, both male and female, who have accomplished far more than I, with far less. I’m sorry you’ve chosen the path you’re on, as it seems to be causing you a great deal of trouble. But if in the end it lets you recognize that it’s not what you are, but who you are, then it will not be a total loss. When I started writing this post, I was drunk. At this point, I’m stone cold sober. There is nothing humorous about this subject, when you get right down to it; choices that affect people’s lives in drastic, often devastating ways are at best funny when they are abstract. The comment I made this morning was a cop-out: truthful but not useful. Shit like “yer some messed-up weirdo” is just that: shit. You are a sinner like the rest of us, and any attempt to try and be aloof is hypocrisy. Andy/Anna – I can’t in good conscience comment or congratulate you. I must condemn the path you are taking, as from your description it has caused pain to both your former wife and your children. But I can ask that you seek G
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Jason, believe me I do understand and respect your feelings and views on this. I don't expect you to agree with who I say I am (to do so is plainly against your Faith), but if you've read my life story on my website I hope you'll understand how and why I've come to be here. I certainly didn't want to be this way, but I can't carry on lying and acting anymore. If I tried, I'm sure it would kill me this time. Be yourself and follow God - it's plain He's in your heart. God Bless, Anna :rose: "Be yourself - not what others think you should be"
- Marcia GraeschAnna :) wrote: Be yourself and follow God Therein lies the problem. Me being myself is on many fronts in direct opposition to following the Christian God. Therefore I cannot claim to follow your God, no matter how much I want to be able to claim it. Lets say I suddenly realised that sex before marriage is a sin and I repented my past indescretions and strived to not do it again in the future. But I still did not believe that homosexuality was a sin. I would be no closer to being a Christian than before and I would still be rejected at the gates of heaven (or wherever you are so rejected.) I could believe 99 out of a 100 "checkpoints" in Christian belief and I would still not be a Christian. Anyway, "What is a Biblical View of Transgender"[^] seems a bit confusing to me, but it seems to say that God "tells" you what sex your are at the moment of conception. From then on you are to act according to what he told you. So if after conception there is a problem and you come out as appearing to be opposite to what he told you, then that is fine so long as you "remember" what he said and act according to it. So I guess in your case he told you female at conception but things went "awry" and you came out as male, people treated you as male and you thought you were male, except for some almost subconcious feeling deep down that you weren't. So the sin would have been you trying to follow social convention by going out with, and sleeping with, women. Now you are changing and I assume will "swap" to men, so falling in to line with what your God has said (which is all that really matters right?) And I assume you "repent" your past sins. If so then, and once again I am just saying this not expecting you to actually take what I say as law or anything, you are perfectly fine in calling and being a Christian. I just want to get this all sorted out in my head, it is fascinating, and by the looks of it, an increasing occurence. I wish I was as brave as you with problems half this size :)
Paul Watson
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Anna :) wrote: Believe me I never wanted to be this way - I just wanted to be "normal". And this is the problem. From birth on, those around us force us into a mold, one which few people fit perfectly, and many do not fit at all. We are put in classes to learn about extraordinary people, doing extraordinary things in extraordinary ways, and then, after hearing about a man who looks at life and picks out the important bits, we are set to pointless tasks, writing the same reports, that will be judged in the same ways, by the same people, and then tossed in the same waste bins. We are told education is the cure for all life’s ills, and that those who buy more of it are better people. We pay so much for education we spend our lives in debt, working at jobs we hate to pay for knowledge we don’t use, but that’s ok – we can still turn up our noses at the high-school dropout putting up siding. Pop-culture tells us how we interact with other people, what appropriate hobbies are, how we can spend our free time, how much free time we can have… We’re supposed to be in a “relationship” from the time we hit puberty, but marriage is a shackle and should be shunned until we’re quite sure there’s no chance we can still have any fun. Being a jack-of-all-trades is good. Being a master of one is bad. Caring about other people, simply because they are people is right out. In the end, it’s what you do, not what you’re given. I know men, both male and female, who have accomplished far more than I, with far less. I’m sorry you’ve chosen the path you’re on, as it seems to be causing you a great deal of trouble. But if in the end it lets you recognize that it’s not what you are, but who you are, then it will not be a total loss. When I started writing this post, I was drunk. At this point, I’m stone cold sober. There is nothing humorous about this subject, when you get right down to it; choices that affect people’s lives in drastic, often devastating ways are at best funny when they are abstract. The comment I made this morning was a cop-out: truthful but not useful. Shit like “yer some messed-up weirdo” is just that: shit. You are a sinner like the rest of us, and any attempt to try and be aloof is hypocrisy. Andy/Anna – I can’t in good conscience comment or congratulate you. I must condemn the path you are taking, as from your description it has caused pain to both your former wife and your children. But I can ask that you seek G
Thank you Shog. I appreciate your honesty. :rose: I have two huge regrets in my life - firstly that I wasn't strong enough to get this sorted out 20 years ago, and secondly that I can never carry a child. I love my kids deeply and also (despite the abuse I've endured from her over the years) my ex-wife. My refusal (and that of others like me) to accept my nature just put off the moment of truth and made it far more painful to deal with for everyone around me. That's the tragedy of transexualism. The younger it's diagnosed and treated, the better for everyone. God Bless, Anna :rose: "Be yourself - not what others think you should be"
- Marcia Graesch -
Anna :) wrote: Be yourself and follow God Therein lies the problem. Me being myself is on many fronts in direct opposition to following the Christian God. Therefore I cannot claim to follow your God, no matter how much I want to be able to claim it. Lets say I suddenly realised that sex before marriage is a sin and I repented my past indescretions and strived to not do it again in the future. But I still did not believe that homosexuality was a sin. I would be no closer to being a Christian than before and I would still be rejected at the gates of heaven (or wherever you are so rejected.) I could believe 99 out of a 100 "checkpoints" in Christian belief and I would still not be a Christian. Anyway, "What is a Biblical View of Transgender"[^] seems a bit confusing to me, but it seems to say that God "tells" you what sex your are at the moment of conception. From then on you are to act according to what he told you. So if after conception there is a problem and you come out as appearing to be opposite to what he told you, then that is fine so long as you "remember" what he said and act according to it. So I guess in your case he told you female at conception but things went "awry" and you came out as male, people treated you as male and you thought you were male, except for some almost subconcious feeling deep down that you weren't. So the sin would have been you trying to follow social convention by going out with, and sleeping with, women. Now you are changing and I assume will "swap" to men, so falling in to line with what your God has said (which is all that really matters right?) And I assume you "repent" your past sins. If so then, and once again I am just saying this not expecting you to actually take what I say as law or anything, you are perfectly fine in calling and being a Christian. I just want to get this all sorted out in my head, it is fascinating, and by the looks of it, an increasing occurence. I wish I was as brave as you with problems half this size :)
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
CapThanks Paul. :rose: I'm not surprised you were confused by the paper you referenced if this statement is anything to go by: "God doesn't create a person with the genitals of a male and the consciousness and heart of a female.". In contrast, transsexualism is now accepted as a birth defect by the medical professtion - I'd recommend reading An Open Letter To Physicians[^] for a good medical perspective. I've always thought of my Faith as a pragmatic one. I CANNOT accept that God would create anyone imperfect in any way whatsoever - that would destroy my Faith. Ergo I believe that He creates our souls, but our bodies are products of the Nature He created...otherwise he'd be directly responsible for all birth defects and my Faith would be totally gone. I'm under no illusions about how close to Christian ideals my life is. I call myself Christian because I've asked Jesus into my life as my Saviour, and I follow His teachings as closely as I can. However, as far as marriage goes according to the Bible I can't remarry (I'm divorced) or have relationships outside of marriage. I'm under no illusions I can remain celibate for the rest of my life - but if I do get involved with someone it will be for love. :love: I also know is that my sexual feelings are screwed up - 36 years of male social conditioning has seen to that. Right now, I feel an attraction to both sexes which doesn't help me sort my head out believe me - hence my intention to stay clear of relationships for a while. The one good thing that's come out of all this is that as a person I'm now much truer in every way - the "old" me was a sham and it showed! I'm closer to everyone around me, and I don't muck people about - what you see is what you get. :) As you seem to be curious about the subject, have a look at the Links page on my site - you'll find a lot of material from there (I'd particularly recommend going to the Gendys Network journal (http://www.gender.org.uk/gendys/magazine.htm[^]) and reading some of Revd. David Horton's writings). Doing a Google search for "Transsexual Christians" will unearth a lot of material too. As a footnote, you might be interested to know that the consultant who's overseeing my transition (Dr.
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phykell wrote: Why do some people feel the need to express their feelings no matter who they offend? Like Anna did? An offer of friendship is one thing, but telling people you're a woman trapped in a man's body is a little over the top. It doesn't belong here and you can expect everyone to accept it.
Jason Henderson
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"If you are going through hell, keep going." - Sir Winston ChurchillJason Henderson wrote: An offer of friendship is one thing, but telling people you're a woman trapped in a man's body is a little over the top. It doesn't belong here and you can expect everyone to accept it. One could use the same argument regarding statements of religious beliefs. However, I thought this forum was for general chat? People can choose to read, or not, as the case may be. Debbie
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Paul Selormey wrote: Just exclude me, please. Best regards, Paul. Jesus Christ is LOVE! Please tell somebody. If you're going to have a signature that saccharine, you should really check your attitude at the door. -- Paul A. Howes
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Robert Edward Caldecott wrote: You complete and utter tosser. People like you make me sick. Do not worry, Jesus will heal your sickness. Jesus will not accept you as gay, lesbian etc. it is a sickness and he will heal you, any better love? Failing to accept that you are sick is a problem, the world may decorate it but it will not become "less sickness". You are doing yourself and humanity a great harm if you do not help your brother who is sick realize his situation - even if you are sick too you can still help. Best regards, Paul. Jesus Christ is LOVE! Please tell somebody.
ROTFLMFAO! Fucking hilarious, absolutely fucking hilarious. I am tempted to have that shite printed on a T-Shirt so others can appreciate it - mind if I quote you?
David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk
Save a tapestry, eat a cat
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Ya know, I like to think of myself as a fairly understanding live-and-let-live kinda guy where this stuff is concerned, but I honestly think you would have been better off not mentioning your mental problems here. Just because some nitwit gave it a name (Gender Dysphoria?) does NOT mean the condition really exists, nor does it mean we should just accept it. If you want to be a girl, fine, be one, but coming in here and expecting sympathy, understanding, and acceptance from the bulk of the audience after saying you're a guy that wants to be a girl is pure bullshit, and I for one don't want to hear about it. I'm not sure how many people agree with my outlook, but I'm sure there are a few. I don't want to know who you were (ad I really do give a flying donkey f**k either), and frankly people like you creap me out - you're as bad as fundamentalist religious fanatics. Your "coming out" messages are precisely the kind of bullshit that gets posted here that does NOT belong and that I hate to see, and I will continue to visciously lash out and verbally viscerate anyone that does so. Now, before anyone gets on their freakin high-horse, remember one thing - I'm not in the mood to debate with whiny, sniveling little Barbies who think I'm being too harsh or downright rude. This "coming out" shit has no place in the lounge. ------- signature starts "...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001 Please review the Legal Disclaimer in my bio. ------- signature ends
John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote: If you want to be a girl, fine, be one, but coming in here and expecting sympathy, understanding, and acceptance from the bulk of the audience after saying you're a guy that wants to be a girl is pure bullshit I don't believe she has ever acted like that -- you are making big assumptions there. Many many times it helps to just share a feeling, even if that just means talking blindly about in in the third person -- I've done it many times, and quite frankly I never gave a shit what was said in return to it, it served it's purpose and got it off my chest. The fact Anna feels able to do so here is a testament to the quality of this community. Yourself included.
David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk
Save a tapestry, eat a cat
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I just wanted to say a huge thank you to everyone at CP who's been so supportive of me over the last year. I know there were a couple of people who were sceptical about me at the outset (I've even been accused of being that worm B**l S****o a couple of times! :omg: ) but that aside the reaction I've had (both in forum messages and emails) has been heartwarming. :rose: I'm now only two months away from changing role publicly, and to be honest I'm getting very tired of hiding who I am. I feel it's time to let you know me a bit better than you can through just the little bit of me you see in the forums. Before doing so I should say that I'm not completely "out" at work yet (although my immediate colleagues and the company are aware of the situation) so I would ask for discretion. Once the formal announcement is made at work (which I expect to happen sometime in December), I'll close off this account and switch back to my other one (renamed of course!). I'll also update my articles to change the name on them. The whole story of who I am and how I came to be in this position is on my website - www.annasplace.me.uk[^]. If you have a look I hope you find it interesting. I'm glad to call you all my friends. :love: Anna :rose: "Be yourself - not what others think you should be"
- Marcia GraeschDon't worry Anna, I still think what you are doing is great. F**k society, you are doing what you really want to do and I can think of nothing better to do with your life. I don't buy into any of this religious crap, prefering instead to base my decisions on my own observations rather than those printed in a storybook, so I don't see anything at all wrong with what you are doing. It isn't for me but that doesn't give me any right to put those that disagree with me down -- take note Paul "Jesus Loves Me" Salami, er, Selorny. If you want to give salvation to something I really need my drains cleaning ... and I'm sure your icon would smile at your charity. Of course though I have no right to say that to you or Paul so read it accordingly. Your web site makes an interesting read and gives a good idea of the emotional side of things - I can't imagine how unbearable it must have been as a kid, especially through your teenage years when conformance plays such a big role (even to nonconformists). Touché on making it this far. Many happy belated returns for your birthday last month. It may have taken 36 years to get your life sorted out, but you can soon live the rest how you really want to. :rose: Hopefully I managed to see through your, through well applied, makeup correctly, else I have just made a prat of myself! :-O
David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk
Save a tapestry, eat a cat
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Don't worry Anna, I still think what you are doing is great. F**k society, you are doing what you really want to do and I can think of nothing better to do with your life. I don't buy into any of this religious crap, prefering instead to base my decisions on my own observations rather than those printed in a storybook, so I don't see anything at all wrong with what you are doing. It isn't for me but that doesn't give me any right to put those that disagree with me down -- take note Paul "Jesus Loves Me" Salami, er, Selorny. If you want to give salvation to something I really need my drains cleaning ... and I'm sure your icon would smile at your charity. Of course though I have no right to say that to you or Paul so read it accordingly. Your web site makes an interesting read and gives a good idea of the emotional side of things - I can't imagine how unbearable it must have been as a kid, especially through your teenage years when conformance plays such a big role (even to nonconformists). Touché on making it this far. Many happy belated returns for your birthday last month. It may have taken 36 years to get your life sorted out, but you can soon live the rest how you really want to. :rose: Hopefully I managed to see through your, through well applied, makeup correctly, else I have just made a prat of myself! :-O
David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk
Save a tapestry, eat a cat
Thanks Dave. :rose: I appreciate your honesty (not that I'd ever expect anything else from you lol)....and no, you didn't make a prat of yourself. ;) Of course, the burning question is - did you guess right...? (I'm curious - I've learnt a lot of psychology in the last year, and I know how much my character comes through in my writing). I'm glad you found my site interesting. I've always tried to help others where I can and the site's a good way to pass on what I've learnt, both to sufferers and those trying to understand this condition. I've written so much in the last year (including an 80 page diary I could never publish - it touches on too many lives), that doing it was a real labour of love. I really hope it can others, even if just a little. I must admit I didn't have much of a birthday this year (just about everyone who came to my party last year was from our Church, and you can guess how many of them I see on a regular basis :((), but I more than made up for it on Saturday night... :-D Take care and thanks again, Anna :rose: "Be yourself - not what others think you should be"
- Marcia Graesch
