Interviewing / candidate qualifying tips
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John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote:
They're not serious about being a programmer. Don't hire them.
I do not own a laptop because I just cannot work on such a crammed keyboard and monitor (No, not even for a short while. Thanks for asking. I've managed for so long without it). I think that it's a personal preference. There may also be those programmers who are serious, but don't have the money to buy a laptop. All those laptops that I've ever purchased and used were given to me by my employer. But I pester them continuously and give it back to them. Emails will be checked on the phone while on travel.
“Follow your bliss.” – Joseph Campbell
Rajesh R Subramanian wrote:
I do not own a laptop because I just cannot work on such a crammed keyboard and monitor
Most people connect the laptop to a full mouse/keyboard and one or two large monitors :-) The only time the laptop is used as it is is in a long flight or in an airport.
Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
My latest book : C++/CLI in Action / Amazon.com link -
Rajesh R Subramanian wrote:
I do not own a laptop because I just cannot work on such a crammed keyboard and monitor
Most people connect the laptop to a full mouse/keyboard and one or two large monitors :-) The only time the laptop is used as it is is in a long flight or in an airport.
Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
My latest book : C++/CLI in Action / Amazon.com linkThe only time my ;laptop gets used is when either my wife or myself are traveling (or interviewing).
.45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly
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"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997
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"The staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - J. Jystad, 2001 -
Rajesh R Subramanian wrote:
I do not own a laptop because I just cannot work on such a crammed keyboard and monitor
Most people connect the laptop to a full mouse/keyboard and one or two large monitors :-) The only time the laptop is used as it is is in a long flight or in an airport.
Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
My latest book : C++/CLI in Action / Amazon.com linkI know, I know. I've also thought having to buy an additional keyboard, mouse and a monitor (sometimes a dock) is a pain and a complete waste of money. It just doesn't make sense to me. I don't think I'll ever waste money on buying extra keyboard and monitor because I've to buy a laptop.
“Follow your bliss.” – Joseph Campbell
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Anytime you change something on the customer you have the program use C# code to figure out which dataset needs to be told to change info, then it sends the info to an SQL server, which then changes the info using code in the dataset, which is then sent to the program, which then sends the changes to the actual data on the SQL server and that newly upsated dataset sends the info to the form to update what it says... We think retarded monkeys with typewriters could have done a better job.
At describing datasets? Definitely.
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We tend to start off with a logic test (it's a programming test, but it's not specific to a language). We then move on to ask some fairly specific OO, .NET and SQL questions, to which there generally is a specific answer. We then move onto some questions asking them to talk through solving a problem. We use designing a chess game from an OO point of view, and designing a database schema for a car rental company, and simply keep asking more probing questions about their answer until we feel we've guided them to a good solution. If they don't seem to get it, drop it. You'll know if they seem to know what they're talking about. For instance people who can design database will get what you want from them straight away. People who are book-learnt will waffle about normalisation, but never really get there. We decided we'd rather hire someone who's very logical than someone who can quote MSDN. For us, there's been a direct correlation between book learners and poor scores on logic tests. The last guy we hired simply admitted he didn't know the answers to a few of the more tricky questions, rocked the logic test, and within 2 months was writing some fantastic code; he made a real contribution. He also had a social life outside work that wasn't programming. The others who could quote MSDN just wanted to program when they got home. I don't want to work with people who don't have other things to talk about when you're having a beer after work.
mincefish wrote:
I don't want to work with people who don't have other things to talk about when you're having a beer after work.
Where do I apply? BTW, for senior, senior guys, how about basing the database design on chess as well? Rules and history. Maybe Go as a more formal game for a DB?
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No, referrals from people I work with or have worked with.
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My company has decided that after 4 years of me doing 100% of the IT work, we need another developer. This person will work directly under my supervision and be tasked with maintaining a C# distributed WinForms app as well as some ASP.NET work. We've hired a headhunter to pre-qualify candidates and set up phone & in-person interviews. And this is the point where my inexperience with hiring really comes to light. I'm getting a little better at the face-to-face and phone interviews, but I'm still not sure how to qualify a person skill-wise. It seems like right now all I'm doing is saying things like "Do you know C#? Have you use SQL Server?" And naturally the candidate tells me that yes, they have. Can anyone give me some tips on how to gauge just HOW experienced or skilled someone might be in the areas that I require? I've asked for code samples, but some candidates can't provide that as it is most likely property of their previous employer. And I'm not sure that 1 class file will really give me a good reference point as to their skill level when taken out of the context of a project as a whole. I've also considered giving a small test, but I'm not too sure how long or difficult I should make it. Suggestions or comments from those that have experience with hiring and interviewing would be most appreciated at this point.
I would suggest the following: 1) Ask the candidate to solve the problems that you have faced. 2) Ask them to code so you have an idea as to whether the person can code. Also, you can identify failures in the code. 3) Check for skills which match your needs This should give a rough idea as to whether the candidate is suitable. HTH
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What one does outside of work should be none of the company's business (unless it's detrimental in some way which is unlikely). But on the other hand, "chemistry" with one's colleagues is a valid concern so I kind of understand.
I like 'chemistry' :cool:
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Marc Clifton wrote:
I would think a queue. Is that more-or-less correct?
Exactly, though shared-memory queue is more precise. If they say named pipes, they are summarily shot. We've actually interviewed people who fumbled around and finally said TCP! To which we answered "Yes, but what about using shared memory?" To which we've gotten the reply, "What's shared memory?" Needless to say, those people are shown the door immediately. We even had a guy suggest writing the file to disk and the other process would poll (yes, poll) that directory.
Joe Woodbury wrote:
We even had a guy suggest writing the file to disk and the other process would poll (yes, poll) that directory.
I've actually done this with a DB table instead of a file. :suss: People were queuing up (haha), even people without any stake, just called from a neighbouring company to see this wondrous demo, and almost opening bottles of bubbly, when I discovered some security issue that didn't allow my ASP component to call another, out of process, component. It took all of about five minutes to implement the db solution, and the bottles were quickly opened to many cheers, but only about three people in the room knew just how evil I had been. BTW, what is shared memory, besides what the name tells me? I started coding on ABAP/4, moved through VB6 into C#, so I have never really had to get involved with memory. BTW again, isn't there a DCOM related answer for this? It would be a lot more secure and 'managed'.
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No, referrals from people I work with or have worked with.
Brady Kelly wrote:
referrals from people I work with or have worked with
That IS the old boy network. I am not disparaging it, it works well, and I don't understand why hiring someone you know is good is considered a bad thing.
Opacity, the new Transparency.
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Tip #1: Don't waste your money with worthless recruiting / head-hunter firms. Place an ad on Dice and you will get the exact same resume list head-hunters will give you. Tip #2: A code test is a good pre-screening tool. Best to require it use data you publish from a webservice you control. You would be surprised at how many ".NET Developers" cannot access a web service. Give a dead-line for submission. Tip #3: You get what you pay for. If you have a low budget hire college grad with no experience, professors letter of reference, a C or B average, and a degree in Computer Science and train him or her (who am I kidding, him). Don't get the A average people, some just work hard to pass but can't code and the rest will drop you like a bad habit when a good gig comes around. Tip #4: Low ball the candidate, price-wise, if they accept it they are desperate and you don't want them :p
Need custom software developed? I do custom programming based primarily on MS tools with an emphasis on C# development and consulting. A man said to the universe: "Sir I exist!" "However," replied the universe, "The fact has not created in me A sense of obligation." --Stephen Crane
Ennis Ray Lynch, Jr. wrote:
Tip #4: Low ball the candidate, price-wise, if they accept it they are desperate and you don't want them :p
That just happened to me, sort of. A friend called and asked if I was up for a 'two weeker' (literally 80 hours), and I said yes. He asked my rate, and I said 300/hr, but I can go down to 200, because I'm desperate. He went and quoted 200, before seeing if they would pay 300, so now my new scoot and Christmas holiday take second saddle to merely eating and paying my bond.
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I personally believe that trying to glean something from a programming test at interview time is worthless. The length of time available limits the complexity and the situation will always be somewhat contrived. My method has always been to have a first interview during which I explain, in detail, what the role involves. I whose them the application(s) in action, I show them source code and database structures. I converse with them about these (few, if any , outright questions - a conversation is necessary - I need to work with these people and know I can do so at a technical level). If available I show them some crap code (maybe some prototype code, maybe something that's causing issues - but nothing too complex) and get them to understand the issues and help suggest improvements (e.g. in once case we had a 'fetchObjectFromDb' method that fetched a massive customer object by selecting from the customer table, then for each 'id' on that table, selecting from the child tables and building the child objects (Name, Address, and other business objects). I asked them to think of any issues (this object was used even if the app was displaying just the customer name in a list, and required up to about 200 calls to the DB to populate all of the objects). Discussion was my point - I didn't expect them to have an answer off the top of their head, I wanted them to think about, and discuss with me, the problem. At the end of the interview, after their opportunity to ask any questions about the requirements of the role) I would tell them that, if called for a 2nd interview they would meet the team (not applicable in your case, I guess!) to make sure they would get on with the members, and be able to ask them any questions - and the team could ask them questions too. And finally I would tell them that, if they were not 100% comfortable with their ability to perform the role I had discussed, that they should get back to me before any second interview to discuss the issues. I insisted (and meant it) that this would not preclude their selection, but that if hired they would be on probation, and I treat probation VERY seriously. If they were unable to perform according to my expectations (which I had carefully explained) using the code base and DB they had been shown, I would sack them during probation. No second chances. Of the 12 or so candidates I employed over 8 or 9 years, I sacked one. (I'm sill not sure if he had some mental illness, was on drugs or what, but the guy that turned up to work could have be
_Maxxx_ wrote:
Of the 12 or so candidates I employed over 8 or 9 years, I sacked one. (I'm sill not sure if he had some mental illness, was on drugs or what, but the guy that turned up to work could have been a completely different person from the one I interviewed - he managed to use the letter 'O' instead of a zero in some test SQL inserts he wrote, and couldn't tell why it was failing, for example!_)
I have a mild mental illness (anxiety disorder), and even when I've been on drugs, that might have happened, but has never gone undetected for more than a minute or two.
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Joe Woodbury wrote:
We even had a guy suggest writing the file to disk and the other process would poll (yes, poll) that directory.
I've actually done this with a DB table instead of a file. :suss: People were queuing up (haha), even people without any stake, just called from a neighbouring company to see this wondrous demo, and almost opening bottles of bubbly, when I discovered some security issue that didn't allow my ASP component to call another, out of process, component. It took all of about five minutes to implement the db solution, and the bottles were quickly opened to many cheers, but only about three people in the room knew just how evil I had been. BTW, what is shared memory, besides what the name tells me? I started coding on ABAP/4, moved through VB6 into C#, so I have never really had to get involved with memory. BTW again, isn't there a DCOM related answer for this? It would be a lot more secure and 'managed'.
Shared memory is a section of memory that can be shared among multiple processes. For all intents and purposes, it's a memory mapped file with no backing store. We use them in two ways; one is as a queue which uses mutexes and semaphores (using the Win32 interlock functions, you can make a fairly fast queue--there's an article on it in CP somewhere.) The second is to maintain some state data with a procedural interface through a DLL. DCOM could be used, but it's more geared toward communicating across multiple systems and I'd avoid it. Another things, it has some serious security problems and three are plenty of superior solutions now available. Other solutions include Atoms and DDE, though DDE is a rather horrid solution.
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My company has decided that after 4 years of me doing 100% of the IT work, we need another developer. This person will work directly under my supervision and be tasked with maintaining a C# distributed WinForms app as well as some ASP.NET work. We've hired a headhunter to pre-qualify candidates and set up phone & in-person interviews. And this is the point where my inexperience with hiring really comes to light. I'm getting a little better at the face-to-face and phone interviews, but I'm still not sure how to qualify a person skill-wise. It seems like right now all I'm doing is saying things like "Do you know C#? Have you use SQL Server?" And naturally the candidate tells me that yes, they have. Can anyone give me some tips on how to gauge just HOW experienced or skilled someone might be in the areas that I require? I've asked for code samples, but some candidates can't provide that as it is most likely property of their previous employer. And I'm not sure that 1 class file will really give me a good reference point as to their skill level when taken out of the context of a project as a whole. I've also considered giving a small test, but I'm not too sure how long or difficult I should make it. Suggestions or comments from those that have experience with hiring and interviewing would be most appreciated at this point.
Having employed people in the past I can feel your pain :) and a lot of candidates can't provide too much in way of meaningful code. I found that small tests mainly in the realms of problem solving worked the best. Nothing to hard but enough to test their approach in problem solving. You could also provide them with some code that doesn't work and ask them to debug, again nothing too hard but just enough to challenge them. Competancy based questions / interviewing techniques can also give you a good insight into the potential employee but don't rely soley on these.
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kryzchek wrote:
They may not own a laptop
They're not serious about being a programmer. Don't hire them.
kryzchek wrote:
Their development work may belong to their previous employer, so it's proprietary, private or not even in their personal possession (say that 3 times, fast).
Not a valid assumption. I have a laptop, and I have a development environment on it that includes all of my tools and whatever source code *of mine* I might be working on. That's what I meant by "development environment". Providing a code sample without being able to show that it actually works and that I know what it does is a waste of everyone's time. I took my laptop to every job interview with several of my codeproject articles ready to demonstrate, as well as some of the web sites I've built. Nobody wanted to see them, but I was ready if they did.
.45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly
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"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997
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"The staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - J. Jystad, 2001Despite the negative comments towards John Simmons, I think I have to agree with him. Any professional developer who cares about their profession and is good at it will own their own development environment (doesn't have to be a laptop, could be a desktop). Also they would be able to provide their own code samples that they made outside of work, yes, as in they wrote code in their own spare time. It's no different in any other skilled profession, a highly skilled builder would likely have their own set of building tools at home, would have worked on their own building projects, such as building an extension to their house, or even a shed, a patio, or some sort of room conversion. A doctor would probably have their own medical books, and study up on the latest medical trends/research papers in their own time. It's continuous self improvement, and it's necessary in most highly skilled professions, especially one like software engineering that is constantly evolving. In my experience the best programmers are the ones who program in their free time as a hobby, or just as a professional courtesy to keep their skills up to date. And the worst are the ones who see programming as just a 9 - 5 job, and would only bother learning a new skill set when they are required too (eg. by an employer). I honestly can't comprehend the opinions of people who would avoid hiring programmers who program in their free time, that seems absurd to me, I would go out of way to hire those people. I can make an exception for people in poorer countries where owning your own computer is prohibitively expensive. But if I was in that situation, I would try to find ways around the problem, use computers/books in the library, ask my employer if I take my computer home each day etc.
Dominic Pettifer Blog: www.dominicpettifer.co.uk
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My company has decided that after 4 years of me doing 100% of the IT work, we need another developer. This person will work directly under my supervision and be tasked with maintaining a C# distributed WinForms app as well as some ASP.NET work. We've hired a headhunter to pre-qualify candidates and set up phone & in-person interviews. And this is the point where my inexperience with hiring really comes to light. I'm getting a little better at the face-to-face and phone interviews, but I'm still not sure how to qualify a person skill-wise. It seems like right now all I'm doing is saying things like "Do you know C#? Have you use SQL Server?" And naturally the candidate tells me that yes, they have. Can anyone give me some tips on how to gauge just HOW experienced or skilled someone might be in the areas that I require? I've asked for code samples, but some candidates can't provide that as it is most likely property of their previous employer. And I'm not sure that 1 class file will really give me a good reference point as to their skill level when taken out of the context of a project as a whole. I've also considered giving a small test, but I'm not too sure how long or difficult I should make it. Suggestions or comments from those that have experience with hiring and interviewing would be most appreciated at this point.
I interview a lot of developers, and have interviewed for years. There are some other arguments in this thread (about laptops etc) which may have a bearing on some candidates, but i dont feel are important. To cover all bases, i only look for 3 things. 1 - evidence that the person is smart (evidence through stories they tell that you can probe, articles they have written, talks, code samples etc) 2 - evidence that they can get something finished. You need somebpody who has experience of actually seeing a job through to the end. there are quite a few in my experience who bail out when the going gets tough. These you dont need 3 - has already been mentioned, but somebody whoyou think you will get along with. Doesnt have to be a new best buddy, but you will spend more thime with this hire than your family, so at least make sure you dont hate them. As for a tech exam, i like to take a scenario (how would you design a lift system/car engine/river etc in code). this means that hey cant learn something off, and makes people think on the fly. you can take a challenge like this in loads of different directions and get some surprising answers!! Lastly, i would recommend thsi book, Smart and gets things done by Joel Spolsky. Its a great little guide. here are some great links from the book: Sorting Resumes[^] The Phone Screen[^] The Interview[^] Hope some of this helps!
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John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote:
kryzchek wrote: They may not own a laptop They're not serious about being a programmer. Don't hire them.
Bullshit. Most of the better programmers I have known and worked with, have not started out with their own laptop. OK, in my country, laptops are damn expensive. My first, an Acer bought only this year, cost R15k, with my take-home after about six years as a senior programmer, being just over R25k, just before my R7k mortgage. As an 'overpriced' consultant, working a full 160hr a month, I can only get R48k. Most of my colleagues have actually taken their office desktops home every night. BTW, it's about 8-9 USD to one ZAR.
Your Exchange rate is a little off ... It's 7.48 ZAR to 1 USD :-)
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One of my favorite stories. Interviewed at a satellite office of a well known company by a gang (flock?) of developers. One developer asked me to go to the white board and write a string reverse function. I wrote "strrev()". Later, a developer asked how Intel implemented the hardware to prevent collisions with two processors. I said I could tell him but it didn't matter because that wasn't why I was interviewing. One of the other developers commented that that was dumbest question he ever heard, so I scored points there as well. Didn't get the job, but nobody did. Turns out they interviewed lots of people, but never hired anyone. I found out later through my brother that when corporate found out, they went ballistic and eventually fired the satellite office manager.
I wouldn't pick strrev (discussed to death), but my next question would have been "how would you implement it for a compiler that doesn't have this in its library"? I remember a candidate actually making up a C runtime function (which I just before read an enlightening discussion why it was *not* included in the standard). I generally wouldn't hold that against one who appears capable of writing it, but still.
Personally, I love the idea that Raymond spends his nights posting bad regexs to mailing lists under the pseudonym of Jane Smith. He'd be like a super hero, only more nerdy and less useful. [Trevel]
| FoldWithUs! | sighist | µLaunch - program launcher for server core and hyper-v server -
My company has decided that after 4 years of me doing 100% of the IT work, we need another developer. This person will work directly under my supervision and be tasked with maintaining a C# distributed WinForms app as well as some ASP.NET work. We've hired a headhunter to pre-qualify candidates and set up phone & in-person interviews. And this is the point where my inexperience with hiring really comes to light. I'm getting a little better at the face-to-face and phone interviews, but I'm still not sure how to qualify a person skill-wise. It seems like right now all I'm doing is saying things like "Do you know C#? Have you use SQL Server?" And naturally the candidate tells me that yes, they have. Can anyone give me some tips on how to gauge just HOW experienced or skilled someone might be in the areas that I require? I've asked for code samples, but some candidates can't provide that as it is most likely property of their previous employer. And I'm not sure that 1 class file will really give me a good reference point as to their skill level when taken out of the context of a project as a whole. I've also considered giving a small test, but I'm not too sure how long or difficult I should make it. Suggestions or comments from those that have experience with hiring and interviewing would be most appreciated at this point.
Some companies I sent resumes to for C# jobs called me up and 'put me on the spot' with programming questions that I had to answer before they would even consider an interview. Some of the questions I remember where things like: What is boxing/unboxing? What is a singleton? What are inner/outer joins? etc. I think the key was that they put me on the spot, and didn't arrange a future phone interview in which I could 'study' for. The questions did not get too advanced, they were just testing to see if the basic foundation knowledge was there. Only then would they set up an interview.
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Personality is important, but my boss is very insistent that anyone we hire should be able to get up to speed almost immediately. I've interviewed plenty of nice people that I would enjoy working with, but unfortunately they were all fairly inexperienced and my boss wasn't willing to spend 6 months to train them.
I think you should disabuse your boss of that notion as soon as possible. I've been in the game for around 10 years now, and one thing I've noticed is regardless of complexity, background or skill level, it almost always takes 2 to 3 months before the new staff member is productive. It might be a function of the environment, or not. Before then, they will be producing work, but it will be at a very high opportunity cost. That is, for them to produce something it will require checking by you, which takes away time you'd otherwise be producing work as well. I'm not an expert, but that is what I've observed over the years, for what it's worth.