MS and Oracle's big dev tools - who needs 'em?
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I do not know who the author is except for the brief bio at the end of the article (BTW, what the hell are Adobe's LiveCycle Data Services, ATG/Dynamo, and AVS?). A few quotes that made me go mad and think the author don't know what he's talking about. Make sure your build processes use command line tools so the IDE is an optional part of your software process. That's trivial with MSBuild that, guess what, is able to build Visual Studio solutions. Zero gap between IDE and command line. Focus on the processes and tools that minimize the time between a code change and test results. What's easier than right-click in the code and click on "Run Tests" with the help of TestDriven.NET or R#? Visual Studio may struggle to keep up with the fastest growing platforms supported by competitors Apple and Google, but if you are writing Windows C++ code, I can't imagine choosing anything else. For the rest, Eclipse seems like the front-runner Yeah right. What about C#/.NET? (BTW, you can't compare C++, Java, Objective-C and Python without taking C#/.NET into account) Maybe this guy has been too much in the Java world that doesn't know anything else? A common problem for many of us, but at least for me, I don't argue what I don't know about.
If you truly believe you need to pick a mobile phone that "says something" about your personality, don't bother. You don't have a personality. A mental illness, maybe, but not a personality. [Charlie Brooker] ScrewTurn Wiki and My Software Startup
Dario Solera wrote:
What's easier than right-click in the code and click on "Run Tests" with the help of TestDriven.NET or R#?
Having a command line script that automatically runs the tests for you?
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Dario Solera wrote:
What's easier than right-click in the code and click on "Run Tests" with the help of TestDriven.NET or R#?
Having a command line script that automatically runs the tests for you?
That runs on the integration server. I'm talking about development: I don't want run 2000+ tests every 30 seconds, but just the ones related to what I'm doing. Before committing, I run all tests, still from Visual Studio (right click the solution, "Run Tests"). I don't even have to switch window. ;P (BTW, I always have a handy BuildAndTest.bat file that calls MSBuild, compiles and runs the test outside the IDE, but I rarely use it manually).
If you truly believe you need to pick a mobile phone that "says something" about your personality, don't bother. You don't have a personality. A mental illness, maybe, but not a personality. [Charlie Brooker] ScrewTurn Wiki and My Software Startup
modified on Sunday, February 28, 2010 10:51 AM
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Music to Nemanja Trifunovic's ears... MS and Oracle's big dev tools - who needs 'em?[^]
Kevin
Hear hear! "Use the right tool for the right job." -- Scotty et al Use a visual tool when designing something visual; use a text editor when writing text.
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I do not know who the author is except for the brief bio at the end of the article (BTW, what the hell are Adobe's LiveCycle Data Services, ATG/Dynamo, and AVS?). A few quotes that made me go mad and think the author don't know what he's talking about. Make sure your build processes use command line tools so the IDE is an optional part of your software process. That's trivial with MSBuild that, guess what, is able to build Visual Studio solutions. Zero gap between IDE and command line. Focus on the processes and tools that minimize the time between a code change and test results. What's easier than right-click in the code and click on "Run Tests" with the help of TestDriven.NET or R#? Visual Studio may struggle to keep up with the fastest growing platforms supported by competitors Apple and Google, but if you are writing Windows C++ code, I can't imagine choosing anything else. For the rest, Eclipse seems like the front-runner Yeah right. What about C#/.NET? (BTW, you can't compare C++, Java, Objective-C and Python without taking C#/.NET into account) Maybe this guy has been too much in the Java world that doesn't know anything else? A common problem for many of us, but at least for me, I don't argue what I don't know about.
If you truly believe you need to pick a mobile phone that "says something" about your personality, don't bother. You don't have a personality. A mental illness, maybe, but not a personality. [Charlie Brooker] ScrewTurn Wiki and My Software Startup
Dario Solera wrote:
Maybe this guy has been too much in the Java world that doesn't know anything else?
Huh? What is the problem with what he is talking about and what do you think he does not know?
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That runs on the integration server. I'm talking about development: I don't want run 2000+ tests every 30 seconds, but just the ones related to what I'm doing. Before committing, I run all tests, still from Visual Studio (right click the solution, "Run Tests"). I don't even have to switch window. ;P (BTW, I always have a handy BuildAndTest.bat file that calls MSBuild, compiles and runs the test outside the IDE, but I rarely use it manually).
If you truly believe you need to pick a mobile phone that "says something" about your personality, don't bother. You don't have a personality. A mental illness, maybe, but not a personality. [Charlie Brooker] ScrewTurn Wiki and My Software Startup
modified on Sunday, February 28, 2010 10:51 AM
Dario Solera wrote:
but I rarely use it
As a part of my nightly build and before a client release, my automated build script runs and builds everything. It goes and boots a fresh virtual machine in 5 different OSes (Vista, XP, Windows 7, WIndows 2008 and WIndows 2003). A start up script in each VM automatically install the application (using command line tools) and automatically run several scripted tests (on the fresh machines) and validate several things. That has been one of the best thing I ever spent time on because it has simplified my workflow a lot.
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Dario Solera wrote:
Maybe this guy has been too much in the Java world that doesn't know anything else?
Huh? What is the problem with what he is talking about and what do you think he does not know?
Rama Krishna Vavilala wrote:
What is the problem with what he is talking about and what do you think he does not know?
He talks as if using an IDE prevents you from doing things like compiling and testing out of the IDE itself. I'm note sure about other IDEs, but that's not the case with Visual Studio. Given that he started mentioning VS 2010, I'm supposing he does not know what Visual Studio is.
If you truly believe you need to pick a mobile phone that "says something" about your personality, don't bother. You don't have a personality. A mental illness, maybe, but not a personality. [Charlie Brooker] ScrewTurn Wiki and My Software Startup
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Dario Solera wrote:
but I rarely use it
As a part of my nightly build and before a client release, my automated build script runs and builds everything. It goes and boots a fresh virtual machine in 5 different OSes (Vista, XP, Windows 7, WIndows 2008 and WIndows 2003). A start up script in each VM automatically install the application (using command line tools) and automatically run several scripted tests (on the fresh machines) and validate several things. That has been one of the best thing I ever spent time on because it has simplified my workflow a lot.
I should have written "I barely use it manually". Integration servers are there for a reason.
If you truly believe you need to pick a mobile phone that "says something" about your personality, don't bother. You don't have a personality. A mental illness, maybe, but not a personality. [Charlie Brooker] ScrewTurn Wiki and My Software Startup
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Music to Nemanja Trifunovic's ears... MS and Oracle's big dev tools - who needs 'em?[^]
Kevin
I need them. Just like D@nish said everything has it's own use. I can't imagine programming in C# without Intellisence. Text editor(s) such as emac or notepad++ or... and ar OK when programming in dynamic/scripting languages. Or a small console program in C/C++/C#/Java/etc. Why? Simply beacause being a dynamic language reduces a lot the risk of typing errors. You don't have to write
System.Security.Cryptography.ETC myCrypto(nian)
you just write something like
var myCrypto
But then again I don't see a big program standing on dynamic/scripting languages. I'm not trying to knock them down(the dynamic/scriping stuff) just that they are usefull in small client interfaces or OS scripting or... => small/quick programs/solutions. And not in Creating a robust Bussiness Logic around them, or game or...
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Music to Nemanja Trifunovic's ears... MS and Oracle's big dev tools - who needs 'em?[^]
Kevin
A heritic! :) I agree with the sentiment, I'll say I take a whatever floats your boat attitude, but I do have a laugh when I watch the MSDN videos and invariably the (gray haired ponytailed guy) is using emacs or vi to show the latest whiz bang from MS. One of the reasons I enjoy coming to the CP lounge is to see the daily posts on IDE crashes and misgivings. It serves as an affirmation to my Luddite ways. My editor, which is perfect in every way, hasn’t crashed or otherwise cost me a moment of trouble in nearly 30 years.
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I do not know who the author is except for the brief bio at the end of the article (BTW, what the hell are Adobe's LiveCycle Data Services, ATG/Dynamo, and AVS?). A few quotes that made me go mad and think the author don't know what he's talking about. Make sure your build processes use command line tools so the IDE is an optional part of your software process. That's trivial with MSBuild that, guess what, is able to build Visual Studio solutions. Zero gap between IDE and command line. Focus on the processes and tools that minimize the time between a code change and test results. What's easier than right-click in the code and click on "Run Tests" with the help of TestDriven.NET or R#? Visual Studio may struggle to keep up with the fastest growing platforms supported by competitors Apple and Google, but if you are writing Windows C++ code, I can't imagine choosing anything else. For the rest, Eclipse seems like the front-runner Yeah right. What about C#/.NET? (BTW, you can't compare C++, Java, Objective-C and Python without taking C#/.NET into account) Maybe this guy has been too much in the Java world that doesn't know anything else? A common problem for many of us, but at least for me, I don't argue what I don't know about.
If you truly believe you need to pick a mobile phone that "says something" about your personality, don't bother. You don't have a personality. A mental illness, maybe, but not a personality. [Charlie Brooker] ScrewTurn Wiki and My Software Startup
Dario Solera wrote:
(BTW, what the hell are Adobe's LiveCycle Data Services...
Sounds like something from Tron.
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Thanks for the music :) Also, Microsoft's top developers prefer old-fashioned coding[^]: "I will fight you if you try to take away my text editor," said Don Box, a Microsoft distinguished engineer
A few years ago am MS dev posted in a forum that they didn't use VC++ to build Windows but an unspecified "variety of tools."
Kevin
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A few years ago am MS dev posted in a forum that they didn't use VC++ to build Windows but an unspecified "variety of tools."
Kevin
Kevin McFarlane wrote:
unspecified "variety of tools."
Chewing gum, duct tape, string, wing, and prayer.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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Dario Solera wrote:
but I rarely use it
As a part of my nightly build and before a client release, my automated build script runs and builds everything. It goes and boots a fresh virtual machine in 5 different OSes (Vista, XP, Windows 7, WIndows 2008 and WIndows 2003). A start up script in each VM automatically install the application (using command line tools) and automatically run several scripted tests (on the fresh machines) and validate several things. That has been one of the best thing I ever spent time on because it has simplified my workflow a lot.
That needs to be immortalized in an article Rama.
If the post was helpful, please vote, eh! Current activities: Book: Devils by Fyodor Dostoyevsky Project: Hospital Automation, final stage Learning: Image analysis, LINQ Now and forever, defiant to the end. What is Multiple Sclerosis[^]?
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Hear hear! "Use the right tool for the right job." -- Scotty et al Use a visual tool when designing something visual; use a text editor when writing text.
...and don't implement the text editor using WPF...
-- Kein Mitleid Für Die Mehrheit
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I need them. Just like D@nish said everything has it's own use. I can't imagine programming in C# without Intellisence. Text editor(s) such as emac or notepad++ or... and ar OK when programming in dynamic/scripting languages. Or a small console program in C/C++/C#/Java/etc. Why? Simply beacause being a dynamic language reduces a lot the risk of typing errors. You don't have to write
System.Security.Cryptography.ETC myCrypto(nian)
you just write something like
var myCrypto
But then again I don't see a big program standing on dynamic/scripting languages. I'm not trying to knock them down(the dynamic/scriping stuff) just that they are usefull in small client interfaces or OS scripting or... => small/quick programs/solutions. And not in Creating a robust Bussiness Logic around them, or game or...
who says you can't have code completion & intellisense in emacs or vim? I have vim setup for project wide intellisense for both C/C++ and PHP. And I can compile with a key press and check syntax with a keypress, unit tests, build scripts.... everything but the visual part but that's OK because the stuff I'm doing right now aren't visual (or windows based even).
If the post was helpful, please vote, eh! Current activities: Book: Devils by Fyodor Dostoyevsky Project: Hospital Automation, final stage Learning: Image analysis, LINQ Now and forever, defiant to the end. What is Multiple Sclerosis[^]?
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I need them. Just like D@nish said everything has it's own use. I can't imagine programming in C# without Intellisence. Text editor(s) such as emac or notepad++ or... and ar OK when programming in dynamic/scripting languages. Or a small console program in C/C++/C#/Java/etc. Why? Simply beacause being a dynamic language reduces a lot the risk of typing errors. You don't have to write
System.Security.Cryptography.ETC myCrypto(nian)
you just write something like
var myCrypto
But then again I don't see a big program standing on dynamic/scripting languages. I'm not trying to knock them down(the dynamic/scriping stuff) just that they are usefull in small client interfaces or OS scripting or... => small/quick programs/solutions. And not in Creating a robust Bussiness Logic around them, or game or...
MDL=>Moshu wrote:
I can't imagine programming in C# without Intellisence
I can, I was around when things weren't so easy ;)
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Nemanja Trifunovic wrote:
"I will fight you if you try to take away my text editor," said Don Box, a Microsoft distinguished engineer
I still have to find a real developer that things "graphical" programming is better than writing code.
If you truly believe you need to pick a mobile phone that "says something" about your personality, don't bother. You don't have a personality. A mental illness, maybe, but not a personality. [Charlie Brooker] ScrewTurn Wiki and My Software Startup
It depends. I am a developer, having coded for all my professional life, but when I can do something with the UI without it getting on my nerves, I do it. I like LINQ To Entities for its balanced approach (graphical for the heavy plumbing, code for the details), and I also prefer Blend to VS for Silverlight and WPF UI coding. On the other hand, I am a quite visual and kinesthetic person, so drawing a UML diagram often helps me understand a notion. I use them as visual aids for the specifications, but I've never seen something good automatically-generated from them.
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Thanks for the music :) Also, Microsoft's top developers prefer old-fashioned coding[^]: "I will fight you if you try to take away my text editor," said Don Box, a Microsoft distinguished engineer
Sorry to say, Jeff Vroom (the author of the quoted article) has a LOT to learn about programming tools and why they exist. But lighter-weight tools offer a more rapid edit/test cycle with less waiting time. The command line remains one of the most powerful and fastest ways to interact with your system. Uh, nope. I've been in situations where I only had VIM and command line tools, and in situations where I was only developing in Visual C# in the IDE.. there is no difference I can think of in speed of the edit/test cycle. I DID see differences based on processor power.. but that is to be expected. Command line workflows offer a more flexible, less integrated and less guided approach to development. They also make integrations with programming libraries happen less easily. IDEs can help with those integrations.. So, in a way, the command line helps as a check against too much corporate or political control over our computing infrastructure. Uh, coding is not a social experiment. Last time I checked I coded for folks that pay me a check bi-weekly. That means that the company gets a big say in what tools I use.. and typically they have good reasons for making those choices. This sounds more like an excerpt from a marxist tract than a technical reason why IDEs aren't good or useful. Finally.. just a simple note.. The IDEs, in and of themselves, are simply tools.. I find great use for them in certain circumstances, and where they fall short, I have other tools that meet those needs. No single company is able to completely meet all the needs I have.. that said.. there is a LOT to be said about the speed of development using a more modern library (say .NET) vs. a simpler system that doesn't come with the kitchen sink as a library. When I was coding in .NET I was a LOT more productive in raw terms. Tasks that would take me 2 weeks on Linux would take me 2 days in .NET.. All those bells and whistles means I don't have to figure out which 5 3rd party tools I need to use in my project.. I can just code it up and keep moving. Are there gaps? Sure.. but from my perspective they are minor.
modified on Monday, March 1, 2010 4:57 PM
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Sorry to say, Jeff Vroom (the author of the quoted article) has a LOT to learn about programming tools and why they exist. But lighter-weight tools offer a more rapid edit/test cycle with less waiting time. The command line remains one of the most powerful and fastest ways to interact with your system. Uh, nope. I've been in situations where I only had VIM and command line tools, and in situations where I was only developing in Visual C# in the IDE.. there is no difference I can think of in speed of the edit/test cycle. I DID see differences based on processor power.. but that is to be expected. Command line workflows offer a more flexible, less integrated and less guided approach to development. They also make integrations with programming libraries happen less easily. IDEs can help with those integrations.. So, in a way, the command line helps as a check against too much corporate or political control over our computing infrastructure. Uh, coding is not a social experiment. Last time I checked I coded for folks that pay me a check bi-weekly. That means that the company gets a big say in what tools I use.. and typically they have good reasons for making those choices. This sounds more like an excerpt from a marxist tract than a technical reason why IDEs aren't good or useful. Finally.. just a simple note.. The IDEs, in and of themselves, are simply tools.. I find great use for them in certain circumstances, and where they fall short, I have other tools that meet those needs. No single company is able to completely meet all the needs I have.. that said.. there is a LOT to be said about the speed of development using a more modern library (say .NET) vs. a simpler system that doesn't come with the kitchen sink as a library. When I was coding in .NET I was a LOT more productive in raw terms. Tasks that would take me 2 weeks on Linux would take me 2 days in .NET.. All those bells and whistles means I don't have to figure out which 5 3rd party tools I need to use in my project.. I can just code it up and keep moving. Are there gaps? Sure.. but from my perspective they are minor.
modified on Monday, March 1, 2010 4:57 PM
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Right on... Should keep our eyes on the ball. At the end of the day it's all about getting the job done and not about some ideological agenda.