Cost of a tetanus shot in the US
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Far as I know, Obama hasn't actually changed anything yet. He's trying to, but he's still fighting with Congress to get something done.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of Guardians of Xen (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novel)Obama is an EMPLOYEE of the pharmaceutical and insurance corporations. He's AGAINST the public option, and AGAINST Medicare for all, since these would cut into the profits of the corporations that financed his campaign. Affordable dependable medical insurance is just a campaign slogan the Democrats use to trick liberals into voting for them. The only party calling for Medicare for all is the Green Party, who I support. Coincidentally, they're also the only party that doesn't accept ANY corporate money. Obama struck a "secret" deal with the hospital corporations that there would be NO meaningful public option, which is the opposite of what he fooled his supporters into thinking. Here's a link: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/miles-mogulescu/the-real-reason-obamas-pl_b_473924.html[^]
modified on Tuesday, March 2, 2010 11:21 AM
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You don't get it. At least everyone in Canada gets the treatment. I lived and worked in the US my entire life and I am embarrassed at how many working citizens don't have medical coverage or have inadequate medical coverage. Not because they choose to not be covered but because they can't afford it. We are supposed to be the "richest" and most "powerful" nation in the world, yet we let our own people get sick and die because of money. Disgusting! Don't even bring up the meds. Why do we produce the medication in the US and then charge 10 times more for them here then we do in Canada, Mexico and other countries? Because the pharmaceutical companies are in the wallets of almost every US politician, that's why. It's all about money in the US, not health!
I 'love it' when people throw out the bureaucracy card. The CEO of the company that handles the health insurance we have, is paid $7,000,000,000 dollars. It's a big job, I'll be generous. Let's pay them double the US presidents income - Say $800,000? There's $6,200,000 of bureaucracy in ONE INSURER, ONE STAFF MEMBER that doesn't go towards health treatment.
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Joe Woodbury wrote:
Nobody is going without basic health care in this country.
That's just an utterly ignorant statement. I personally know people who go without basic health care because it would mean that they lose their houses. Their mortgage is currently lower than even the cheapest rents ($600/mo), so they would probably be homeless if they need any kind of emergency health care.
Never mind the lady that was pregnant, couldn't afford pre-natal care, and the had to have a C-section for a 12 lb stillborn due to diabetes. Or the 25 yr old guy that committed suicide due to perceived issues over large medical bills from an accident (Personally I'd have taken the bankruptcy route first) To all those that object to socialised health care - I presume you are against taxes paying for roads too?
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An interesting infographic... Health care costs arounds the world[^]
Here's another that shows a more stark difference... http://ucatlas.ucsc.edu/spend.php Life expectancy vs Health care expenditure http://ucatlas.ucsc.edu/health/spend/cost\_longlife75.gif
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The fact that socialism is so demonized in the States is ridiculous. Insights from socialism have changed capitalism and helped it survive, particularly through its crises (1930 in the States, 68 in France and Germany). A good mix is often the best way.
If socialism is so much better, why does the world come to the US for help in all aspects of life. Any time there is a natural disaster 80% of the aid comes from the US. Any time a dictator invades his neighbors, the US sends 90% of the military force to help push them back. (not just Iraq but look back over the last 100 years) And why if socialized medicine is so great do people from all over Europe and Canada, and the rest of the world come to the US for specialized care. Socializing any aspect of life takes away the drive for improvement. What reward can I possibly get from spending my life working towards making something better when the government thinks what we have is good enough. vis a vis the world coming to the US for better care. Beyond that, as crazy as our tax code is people in the US pay less tax than most first world countries and typically by 20%. No our system is not perfect but socializing is probably not the answer. Improving Medicare/Medicaid would go much further for a short term fix then would buy time to consider the costs of a further reaching program. The problem with what the Obama administration is doing is they are trying to eat the whole elephant in one bite. That also means they don't really know what they are getting into for the long run and if it fails we are all worse off than where we stand today.
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If socialism is so much better, why does the world come to the US for help in all aspects of life. Any time there is a natural disaster 80% of the aid comes from the US. Any time a dictator invades his neighbors, the US sends 90% of the military force to help push them back. (not just Iraq but look back over the last 100 years) And why if socialized medicine is so great do people from all over Europe and Canada, and the rest of the world come to the US for specialized care. Socializing any aspect of life takes away the drive for improvement. What reward can I possibly get from spending my life working towards making something better when the government thinks what we have is good enough. vis a vis the world coming to the US for better care. Beyond that, as crazy as our tax code is people in the US pay less tax than most first world countries and typically by 20%. No our system is not perfect but socializing is probably not the answer. Improving Medicare/Medicaid would go much further for a short term fix then would buy time to consider the costs of a further reaching program. The problem with what the Obama administration is doing is they are trying to eat the whole elephant in one bite. That also means they don't really know what they are getting into for the long run and if it fails we are all worse off than where we stand today.
Who actually said that "socialism is better"? "Any time there is a natural disaster 80% of the aid comes from the US." citation needed "Any time a dictator invades his neighbors, the US sends 90% of the military force to help push them back. (not just Iraq but look back over the last 100 years)" you mean when the dictator was not actively supported by the US? Because here, by talking about the last 100 years to a Greek, you actually hit the wrong button. "and the rest of the world come to the US for specialized care." Only hyper-rich or very very special cases. Also, citation needed "Socializing any aspect of life takes away the drive for improvement." One of the most wonderful quotes I've ever read :laugh:
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How much does a tetonis shot cost in Canada? Don't say free because it is not free. Again, how much does it cost?
Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] Sons Of Liberty - Free Album (They sound very much like Metallica, great lyrics too)[^]
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A few weeks back I had a close personal encounter with centrifugal physics when I swung my tennis racquet rather unnecessarily hard and found it not only completely missing the ball but also hurtling straight for my face side-on. A resounding thwack later I found myself spitting pieces of one of my teeth out. As it turned out I had broken one of my front teeth clean in half. Friends insisted that I go to the ER and go I did. They took one look at it and said, well, you've got to go see a dentist. After 1.5 hours of thumb twiddling they gave me a tetanus shot and sent me on my way after depriving me of $100. I walked away thinking, "$100 for a tetanus shot?! Outrageous!". Fast forward a week or two when I find myself staring at a bill in the mail in disbelief. Cost of the treatment is given as $1,087.20 :omg:. I am thinking, this is surely a typo! I log on to the insurance website to see what was submitted for the claim and there I find another claim for $294 apart from the other thousand. The hospital submitted a claim for $1,381.20 and the insurance company actually paid $664.00. Add the $100 I paid and you arrive at a grand total of $764 for one measly injection! While my personal liability was only $100, I find the idea that the hospital thought that the service was worth $1,481.20 a bit mind-boggling. When I did a little googling about this, I found articles where the rationale appears to be that ERs run 24/7 all 365 days of the year and are required by law to treat all patients regardless of whether they have insurance or not and that a good chunk of the service they provide goes uncompensated and are therefore forced to distribute that cost among other patients who do happen to be insured. I am not sure that I find that completely convincing. Does anyone else think there's something broken with this system?
-- gleat http://blogorama.nerdworks.in[^] --
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I come from Greece. I just verified that a tetanus shot costs 6€ to the hospital. The whole process of doing it, costs max 30' to the doctor, ie (with all charges, even if the hospital was actually not owning the room and had to pay for that during these 30', or even a whole hour (counting the hours the hospital is closed)) max 100€. Total 106€, ie about 140$. Ok, it is normal for the shot to cost more in the states (doctors are paid more etc etc). But from 140$ to 1350$, there is a difference... So no, in the end you don't pay more.
How much of that was subsidized by your bankrupt government?
Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] Sons Of Liberty - Free Album (They sound very much like Metallica, great lyrics too)[^]
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You don't get it. At least everyone in Canada gets the treatment. I lived and worked in the US my entire life and I am embarrassed at how many working citizens don't have medical coverage or have inadequate medical coverage. Not because they choose to not be covered but because they can't afford it. We are supposed to be the "richest" and most "powerful" nation in the world, yet we let our own people get sick and die because of money. Disgusting! Don't even bring up the meds. Why do we produce the medication in the US and then charge 10 times more for them here then we do in Canada, Mexico and other countries? Because the pharmaceutical companies are in the wallets of almost every US politician, that's why. It's all about money in the US, not health!
No, you don't get it, nothing is free. If you think your health industry is some magic divine identity that doesn't care about profits then you are out of your mind. They get your money forcibly through the government. I never had insurance, when I went to the doctor it cost me 40 bucks for a diagnosis, maybe more if tests were involved. If you go to the emergency room, you will be charged a lot because you are subsidizing those who don't pay for their healthcare bills (the poor). You are seeing hre real cost of those subsidies, you probably pay more since you are in a more subsidized nation.
Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] Sons Of Liberty - Free Album (They sound very much like Metallica, great lyrics too)[^]
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According to my last Alberta Health Care statement, a tetanus shot costs $23.81 Cdn. And upon doing a little research I find the serum was actually manufactured in New Jersey.
I'm so sick and tired of arguing the fact that IT IS SUBSIDIZED! The real cost is hidden.
Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] Sons Of Liberty - Free Album (They sound very much like Metallica, great lyrics too)[^]
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We don't have those problems in Canada, because health care is free. I can't imagine why people would trust for-profit corporations to run critical services such as health care? Obama seems to get it. Every 1st world country except USA seems to get it. Not to turn this into a heavy political debate, but from a distance, it seems quite unintelligent that people are fighting him on it.
I think it has more to do with what is added into the plan than the plan itself. Once a person attains office in the US, for the most part they never represent the people. They know whats best, and we are going to get it whether we want it or not, so they wrap a good idea like health care around some bad ideas, and hope know one notices the nasty gooey center they are trying to hide. Like putting a dogs medicine in hamburger meat. Some of the line by line items hidden in the mix read like pieces of George Orwell's 1984 and others sound like retirement bonuses and near guarantees for reelection through bribing the people of some states. Thats another problem with govt here, it is commercialized and franchised, some of the elected people involved should have there on collector cards, and sponsors, they already have the agents just like any organized sport here in the US.
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How much of that was subsidized by your bankrupt government?
Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] Sons Of Liberty - Free Album (They sound very much like Metallica, great lyrics too)[^]
That was low, but easy to respond to... How much of the 100€ :P? I assure that's not what caused the current economic problems :laugh: (it's more of a mix of corruption, badly distributed state officers - too few in some functions, too many in some others*, and a ridiculous lack of respect for the law, which caused 1) european subventions to be spent to open brothels and stuff like that and 2) too much tax-evasion). Would liberalism have solved the problems? Just compare to the (very very economically liberal) Ireland: they had all that money in their disposal and then they were almost bankrupt, with no serious infrastructure left(hospitals, education etc)
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That was low, but easy to respond to... How much of the 100€ :P? I assure that's not what caused the current economic problems :laugh: (it's more of a mix of corruption, badly distributed state officers - too few in some functions, too many in some others*, and a ridiculous lack of respect for the law, which caused 1) european subventions to be spent to open brothels and stuff like that and 2) too much tax-evasion). Would liberalism have solved the problems? Just compare to the (very very economically liberal) Ireland: they had all that money in their disposal and then they were almost bankrupt, with no serious infrastructure left(hospitals, education etc)
So massive subsidies isn't a problem? All communist nations eventually fail unless they have serveral other nations propping them up. It goes against human nature to forcibly confiscate wealth and redistribute it. The system will eventually collapse (as we are seeing in both the US and Greece). The united states is also extremely socialist contrary to popular belief.
Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] Sons Of Liberty - Free Album (They sound very much like Metallica, great lyrics too)[^]
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Hired Mind wrote:
Welcome to the backwards bizzaro world of the collectivist, where private monopolies are bad, but monopolies enforced at the point of a gun, are just great!
In Canada, there is no monopoly. Health services are provided by a conglomerate of sources, many are private companies/hospitals/doctors, and the govt. just pays for it all using tax dollars, while also regulating prices. The biggest fear of monopolies is price fixing, and since the govt. foots the bill here, that isn't a concern.
Hired Mind wrote:
Canadians who profess that they're getting "better" health care with a nationalized health system are not paying attention. Do you realize that MRI waiting times are shorter for DOGS in Canada than they are for humans? Why is that?
You imply there is a direct link between a nationalized health system and long wait times, but that is in accurate. Your point 1 about baby boomers is happening here too, except they all get the health services they need instead of just the ones with insurance. That is one of the reasons we have a shortage of health care professionals, and as such some wait lines like MRI are long. That's a cherry picked item though, and most services aren't like that. Fixing it is the focus, and that will happen soon. I personally know 4 people who left their jobs to become doctors or nurses because of the shortage. The money is there to be had, thus an influx of resources are on their way.
It has already been mentioned that the US is the only first-world country without universal social healthcare, free at the point of need. Are we meant to believe that only the US has got it right and that all the others have got it wrong? I don't think so!
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zievo wrote:
costs are generally cheaper in Canada due to Federal regulation. For example, prescription drugs are substantially lower in Canada than the US. Cross-border purchasing has been estimated at $1 billion annually.
Costs are cheaper because they are subsidized by taxpayers. You probably end up paying more do to bureaucracy and lack of choice. They get your money no matter what, and you have no say in how it is spent.
Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] Sons Of Liberty - Free Album (They sound very much like Metallica, great lyrics too)[^]
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So massive subsidies isn't a problem? All communist nations eventually fail unless they have serveral other nations propping them up. It goes against human nature to forcibly confiscate wealth and redistribute it. The system will eventually collapse (as we are seeing in both the US and Greece). The united states is also extremely socialist contrary to popular belief.
Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] Sons Of Liberty - Free Album (They sound very much like Metallica, great lyrics too)[^]
Come to France or Switzerland to see socialism (and not extreme). Even Germany is way more socialist than USA, and nobody needed to save them the last 70 years! But I won't get into that discussion right now, I need to much data and quote finding (example: even Adam Smith was advocating public education).
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Who actually said that "socialism is better"? "Any time there is a natural disaster 80% of the aid comes from the US." citation needed "Any time a dictator invades his neighbors, the US sends 90% of the military force to help push them back. (not just Iraq but look back over the last 100 years)" you mean when the dictator was not actively supported by the US? Because here, by talking about the last 100 years to a Greek, you actually hit the wrong button. "and the rest of the world come to the US for specialized care." Only hyper-rich or very very special cases. Also, citation needed "Socializing any aspect of life takes away the drive for improvement." One of the most wonderful quotes I've ever read :laugh:
I put the citations together, and typed up a rather lenghty post with supporting information and decided that minds will not be changed and it would be a fruitless exchange. Believe what you will, or look at the facts. Either way, that you do not believe as I believe only proves that I do not believe as you believe and that is all it proves.
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A few weeks back I had a close personal encounter with centrifugal physics when I swung my tennis racquet rather unnecessarily hard and found it not only completely missing the ball but also hurtling straight for my face side-on. A resounding thwack later I found myself spitting pieces of one of my teeth out. As it turned out I had broken one of my front teeth clean in half. Friends insisted that I go to the ER and go I did. They took one look at it and said, well, you've got to go see a dentist. After 1.5 hours of thumb twiddling they gave me a tetanus shot and sent me on my way after depriving me of $100. I walked away thinking, "$100 for a tetanus shot?! Outrageous!". Fast forward a week or two when I find myself staring at a bill in the mail in disbelief. Cost of the treatment is given as $1,087.20 :omg:. I am thinking, this is surely a typo! I log on to the insurance website to see what was submitted for the claim and there I find another claim for $294 apart from the other thousand. The hospital submitted a claim for $1,381.20 and the insurance company actually paid $664.00. Add the $100 I paid and you arrive at a grand total of $764 for one measly injection! While my personal liability was only $100, I find the idea that the hospital thought that the service was worth $1,481.20 a bit mind-boggling. When I did a little googling about this, I found articles where the rationale appears to be that ERs run 24/7 all 365 days of the year and are required by law to treat all patients regardless of whether they have insurance or not and that a good chunk of the service they provide goes uncompensated and are therefore forced to distribute that cost among other patients who do happen to be insured. I am not sure that I find that completely convincing. Does anyone else think there's something broken with this system?
-- gleat http://blogorama.nerdworks.in[^] --
That has been the law in many US states for decades. NJ for example has had that law for 20+ years - a hospital emergency room can NOT turn away anyone for inability to pay. That's to prevent those nasty little issues where a hospital ER refuses treatment and leaves people to die on the sidewalk (and that has happened).... which was why the law was created in the first place. The result here in NJ of course has been increased medical costs for those who can pay. So as a society we have two choices: allow people to go untreated or pay higher medical fees either directly to the user or from taxes or other government funding. What's your choice? If you were out of a job for 6 months, no medical insurance, and it was your kid with a broken arm and 105 degree fever, what would you choose then?
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I put the citations together, and typed up a rather lenghty post with supporting information and decided that minds will not be changed and it would be a fruitless exchange. Believe what you will, or look at the facts. Either way, that you do not believe as I believe only proves that I do not believe as you believe and that is all it proves.
I try not to believe, period ;).
