Questions about clouds
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Not the naturally phenomena of water droplets grouping together to make fluffy pillows in the sky. I'm talking cloud computing. Primarily, I'm wondering with regards to function. I can see the point behind massive scalability, I can see how that plays with the economies of scale. But here I am wondering about your typical non-web based and non-data centric applications. Like build servers. How would something like that benefit from "the cloud"? It makes perfect sense to have storage space, databases, platforms and applications deployed on the cloud. But wouldn't some sort of grid processing for mega-compilers also work?
If the post was helpful, please vote, eh! Current activities: Book: Devils by Fyodor Dostoyevsky Project: Hospital Automation, final stage Learning: Image analysis, LINQ Now and forever, defiant to the end. What is Multiple Sclerosis[^]?
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Not the naturally phenomena of water droplets grouping together to make fluffy pillows in the sky. I'm talking cloud computing. Primarily, I'm wondering with regards to function. I can see the point behind massive scalability, I can see how that plays with the economies of scale. But here I am wondering about your typical non-web based and non-data centric applications. Like build servers. How would something like that benefit from "the cloud"? It makes perfect sense to have storage space, databases, platforms and applications deployed on the cloud. But wouldn't some sort of grid processing for mega-compilers also work?
If the post was helpful, please vote, eh! Current activities: Book: Devils by Fyodor Dostoyevsky Project: Hospital Automation, final stage Learning: Image analysis, LINQ Now and forever, defiant to the end. What is Multiple Sclerosis[^]?
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
It makes perfect sense to have storage space, databases, platforms and applications deployed on the cloud.
It doesn't to me! Or at least I can see difficulties with security, with reliability, with backups. I prefer to have my sensitive data where I can get my hands on it, and where I can control who else can, and how they can. Or am I just paranoid?
You should never use standby on an elephant. It always crashes when you lift the ears. - Mark Wallace C/C++ (I dont see a huge difference between them, and the 'benefits' of C++ are questionable, who needs inheritance when you have copy and paste) - fat_boy
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Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
It makes perfect sense to have storage space, databases, platforms and applications deployed on the cloud.
It doesn't to me! Or at least I can see difficulties with security, with reliability, with backups. I prefer to have my sensitive data where I can get my hands on it, and where I can control who else can, and how they can. Or am I just paranoid?
You should never use standby on an elephant. It always crashes when you lift the ears. - Mark Wallace C/C++ (I dont see a huge difference between them, and the 'benefits' of C++ are questionable, who needs inheritance when you have copy and paste) - fat_boy
OriginalGriff wrote:
Or am I just paranoid?
Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get you :)
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Not the naturally phenomena of water droplets grouping together to make fluffy pillows in the sky. I'm talking cloud computing. Primarily, I'm wondering with regards to function. I can see the point behind massive scalability, I can see how that plays with the economies of scale. But here I am wondering about your typical non-web based and non-data centric applications. Like build servers. How would something like that benefit from "the cloud"? It makes perfect sense to have storage space, databases, platforms and applications deployed on the cloud. But wouldn't some sort of grid processing for mega-compilers also work?
If the post was helpful, please vote, eh! Current activities: Book: Devils by Fyodor Dostoyevsky Project: Hospital Automation, final stage Learning: Image analysis, LINQ Now and forever, defiant to the end. What is Multiple Sclerosis[^]?
I believe there are some applications that simply aren't amenable to implementation in 'the cloud' due to their very nature. For example: process control. Most process control applications require real-time or near real-time response. A machine can't twiddle its thumbs, waiting for a non-responsive controller just because the world-wide-wait is more wait than usual. Some cloud techniques might be applicable to large systems, but I think those are more general-purpose distributed computing approaches than they are cloud-specific. Another example: secure data handling. No, I'm not talking about credit card transactions or anything like that. I'm talking about handling of data whose physical security is important. There are applications where data is created and consumed in a physically isolated environment as part of the security measures used to protect it. More to your point, which I believe was to find cloud applications other than the typical LOB stuff, I could see a cloud-based build system for a distributed development team. I could see this being used in a couple cases. One, massive applications with large amounts of generated code. You've got two processing burdens there: generating the code, and then compiling it. Two, applications with large amounts of processed data. An example here would be a mapping application, where the build process massages the source data into another format for consumption by the built application.
Software Zen:
delete this;
Fold With Us![^]modified on Sunday, April 4, 2010 10:19 AM
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I believe there are some applications that simply aren't amenable to implementation in 'the cloud' due to their very nature. For example: process control. Most process control applications require real-time or near real-time response. A machine can't twiddle its thumbs, waiting for a non-responsive controller just because the world-wide-wait is more wait than usual. Some cloud techniques might be applicable to large systems, but I think those are more general-purpose distributed computing approaches than they are cloud-specific. Another example: secure data handling. No, I'm not talking about credit card transactions or anything like that. I'm talking about handling of data whose physical security is important. There are applications where data is created and consumed in a physically isolated environment as part of the security measures used to protect it. More to your point, which I believe was to find cloud applications other than the typical LOB stuff, I could see a cloud-based build system for a distributed development team. I could see this being used in a couple cases. One, massive applications with large amounts of generated code. You've got two processing burdens there: generating the code, and then compiling it. Two, applications with large amounts of processed data. An example here would be a mapping application, where the build process massages the source data into another format for consumption by the built application.
Software Zen:
delete this;
Fold With Us![^]modified on Sunday, April 4, 2010 10:19 AM
Gary R. Wheeler wrote:
the world-wide-wait is more wait than usual
Well, then you need your own in-house cloud... :-D
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Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
It makes perfect sense to have storage space, databases, platforms and applications deployed on the cloud.
It doesn't to me! Or at least I can see difficulties with security, with reliability, with backups. I prefer to have my sensitive data where I can get my hands on it, and where I can control who else can, and how they can. Or am I just paranoid?
You should never use standby on an elephant. It always crashes when you lift the ears. - Mark Wallace C/C++ (I dont see a huge difference between them, and the 'benefits' of C++ are questionable, who needs inheritance when you have copy and paste) - fat_boy
OriginalGriff wrote:
Or am I just paranoid?
Yea.. Your just paranoid... but I somewhat agree with you, I'm not sure how I feel about another entity dictating what I can do to "My" data. That being said, 10 years ago no-one was comfortable using a credit card online, and now I don't even think twice about it.
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Not the naturally phenomena of water droplets grouping together to make fluffy pillows in the sky. I'm talking cloud computing. Primarily, I'm wondering with regards to function. I can see the point behind massive scalability, I can see how that plays with the economies of scale. But here I am wondering about your typical non-web based and non-data centric applications. Like build servers. How would something like that benefit from "the cloud"? It makes perfect sense to have storage space, databases, platforms and applications deployed on the cloud. But wouldn't some sort of grid processing for mega-compilers also work?
If the post was helpful, please vote, eh! Current activities: Book: Devils by Fyodor Dostoyevsky Project: Hospital Automation, final stage Learning: Image analysis, LINQ Now and forever, defiant to the end. What is Multiple Sclerosis[^]?
i liked the cloud better back when it was called the "thin client" model.
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Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
It makes perfect sense to have storage space, databases, platforms and applications deployed on the cloud.
It doesn't to me! Or at least I can see difficulties with security, with reliability, with backups. I prefer to have my sensitive data where I can get my hands on it, and where I can control who else can, and how they can. Or am I just paranoid?
You should never use standby on an elephant. It always crashes when you lift the ears. - Mark Wallace C/C++ (I dont see a huge difference between them, and the 'benefits' of C++ are questionable, who needs inheritance when you have copy and paste) - fat_boy
OriginalGriff wrote:
Or at least I can see difficulties with security, with reliability, with backups. I prefer to have my sensitive data where I can get my hands on it, and where I can control who else can, and how they can.
I have the same concerns. On top of that some of the leaders in the "cloud" are the companies I would least trust to protect my data.
John
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i liked the cloud better back when it was called the "thin client" model.
It's like the dumb terminal paradigm, but without the terminal.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
It makes perfect sense to have storage space, databases, platforms and applications deployed on the cloud.
It doesn't to me! Or at least I can see difficulties with security, with reliability, with backups. I prefer to have my sensitive data where I can get my hands on it, and where I can control who else can, and how they can. Or am I just paranoid?
You should never use standby on an elephant. It always crashes when you lift the ears. - Mark Wallace C/C++ (I dont see a huge difference between them, and the 'benefits' of C++ are questionable, who needs inheritance when you have copy and paste) - fat_boy
Paranoid - No. I too am concerned about the lack of reliability and particularly the security of the data. Using the cloud as offsite data storage and disaster recovery makes a whole lot of sense -- as long as you can suitably encrypt the data and trust the provider not to commit an act of information terrorism against you. And, if you can trust the infrastructure to be available when you need it. I don't buy into the "if you have nothing to hide" mentality.
-Sean ---- Fire Nuts
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i liked the cloud better back when it was called the "thin client" model.
Chris Losinger wrote:
i liked the cloud better back when it was called the "thin client" model.
Get with it Chris. Marketing speak has evolved to hype the next big thing, not the long neglected paradigm from last century.
Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
Think inside the box! ProActive Secure Systems
I'm on-line therefore I am. JimmyRopes -
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
It makes perfect sense to have storage space, databases, platforms and applications deployed on the cloud.
It doesn't to me! Or at least I can see difficulties with security, with reliability, with backups. I prefer to have my sensitive data where I can get my hands on it, and where I can control who else can, and how they can. Or am I just paranoid?
You should never use standby on an elephant. It always crashes when you lift the ears. - Mark Wallace C/C++ (I dont see a huge difference between them, and the 'benefits' of C++ are questionable, who needs inheritance when you have copy and paste) - fat_boy
I understand and believe in everything you just said. However, I have to ask, do you use and trust webmail like google mail or yahoo mail? Besides, I'm considering a model implementation. Encrypted data stored in a safe, remote location that is replicated for safety purposes is still good reliable data and would severely limit if not inhibit any security breach.
If the post was helpful, please vote, eh! Current activities: Book: Devils by Fyodor Dostoyevsky Project: Hospital Automation, final stage Learning: Image analysis, LINQ Now and forever, defiant to the end. What is Multiple Sclerosis[^]?
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Not the naturally phenomena of water droplets grouping together to make fluffy pillows in the sky. I'm talking cloud computing. Primarily, I'm wondering with regards to function. I can see the point behind massive scalability, I can see how that plays with the economies of scale. But here I am wondering about your typical non-web based and non-data centric applications. Like build servers. How would something like that benefit from "the cloud"? It makes perfect sense to have storage space, databases, platforms and applications deployed on the cloud. But wouldn't some sort of grid processing for mega-compilers also work?
If the post was helpful, please vote, eh! Current activities: Book: Devils by Fyodor Dostoyevsky Project: Hospital Automation, final stage Learning: Image analysis, LINQ Now and forever, defiant to the end. What is Multiple Sclerosis[^]?
This isn't quite the same meaning of compile, but at work we build machine learning classifiers based on data-streams of tens of millions of clicks a day. We are looking to ramp up to advertising impression data which will learn from streams with 10+ billion impressions a day. Building a classifier from that much data is something that could definitely benefit from something like a map reduce approach using commodity hardware.
I can imagine the sinking feeling one would have after ordering my book, only to find a laughably ridiculous theory with demented logic once the book arrives - Mark McCutcheon
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This isn't quite the same meaning of compile, but at work we build machine learning classifiers based on data-streams of tens of millions of clicks a day. We are looking to ramp up to advertising impression data which will learn from streams with 10+ billion impressions a day. Building a classifier from that much data is something that could definitely benefit from something like a map reduce approach using commodity hardware.
I can imagine the sinking feeling one would have after ordering my book, only to find a laughably ridiculous theory with demented logic once the book arrives - Mark McCutcheon
NICE!! Can I work with you guys?!! Please? Pretty Please? Pretty Please with Whipped-cream, peanuts, chocolate fudge and a cherry on top?! Stuff like this excites me beyond measure. Mixing science with work, pure heaven!
If the post was helpful, please vote, eh! Current activities: Book: Devils by Fyodor Dostoyevsky Project: Hospital Automation, final stage Learning: Image analysis, LINQ Now and forever, defiant to the end. What is Multiple Sclerosis[^]?
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I understand and believe in everything you just said. However, I have to ask, do you use and trust webmail like google mail or yahoo mail? Besides, I'm considering a model implementation. Encrypted data stored in a safe, remote location that is replicated for safety purposes is still good reliable data and would severely limit if not inhibit any security breach.
If the post was helpful, please vote, eh! Current activities: Book: Devils by Fyodor Dostoyevsky Project: Hospital Automation, final stage Learning: Image analysis, LINQ Now and forever, defiant to the end. What is Multiple Sclerosis[^]?
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
I have to ask, do you use and trust webmail like google mail or yahoo mail?
For personal use, yes. For corporate? No. :-D Think about it. If your entire infrastructure is in the cloud, who are you dependant on for you companies continued existence? You add in companies you hardly know, that are responsible to governments you don't have any input to. Suppose you are an EU company, that uses cloud services that happen to be based in the states. If the US government decides to restrict technology from access by certain countries (as they did with Pentiums etc during the later part of last century) what happens to your entire infrastructure? Remember that governments are not well known for being able to differentiate between their arses and their elbows! Why put your critical services at the mercy of others to any greater degree than you have to? :laugh:
You should never use standby on an elephant. It always crashes when you lift the ears. - Mark Wallace C/C++ (I dont see a huge difference between them, and the 'benefits' of C++ are questionable, who needs inheritance when you have copy and paste) - fat_boy
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Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
I have to ask, do you use and trust webmail like google mail or yahoo mail?
For personal use, yes. For corporate? No. :-D Think about it. If your entire infrastructure is in the cloud, who are you dependant on for you companies continued existence? You add in companies you hardly know, that are responsible to governments you don't have any input to. Suppose you are an EU company, that uses cloud services that happen to be based in the states. If the US government decides to restrict technology from access by certain countries (as they did with Pentiums etc during the later part of last century) what happens to your entire infrastructure? Remember that governments are not well known for being able to differentiate between their arses and their elbows! Why put your critical services at the mercy of others to any greater degree than you have to? :laugh:
You should never use standby on an elephant. It always crashes when you lift the ears. - Mark Wallace C/C++ (I dont see a huge difference between them, and the 'benefits' of C++ are questionable, who needs inheritance when you have copy and paste) - fat_boy
Your arguments make loads of sense.
If the post was helpful, please vote, eh! Current activities: Book: Devils by Fyodor Dostoyevsky Project: Hospital Automation, final stage Learning: Image analysis, LINQ Now and forever, defiant to the end. What is Multiple Sclerosis[^]?
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Your arguments make loads of sense.
If the post was helpful, please vote, eh! Current activities: Book: Devils by Fyodor Dostoyevsky Project: Hospital Automation, final stage Learning: Image analysis, LINQ Now and forever, defiant to the end. What is Multiple Sclerosis[^]?
I didn't realise we were having an arguement! Is this a five minute argument or the full half hour? :laugh:
You should never use standby on an elephant. It always crashes when you lift the ears. - Mark Wallace C/C++ (I dont see a huge difference between them, and the 'benefits' of C++ are questionable, who needs inheritance when you have copy and paste) - fat_boy
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I didn't realise we were having an arguement! Is this a five minute argument or the full half hour? :laugh:
You should never use standby on an elephant. It always crashes when you lift the ears. - Mark Wallace C/C++ (I dont see a huge difference between them, and the 'benefits' of C++ are questionable, who needs inheritance when you have copy and paste) - fat_boy
OriginalGriff wrote:
Is this a five minute argument or the full half hour?
:laugh: There's a 5 here in my pocket for that! :-D
If the post was helpful, please vote, eh! Current activities: Book: Devils by Fyodor Dostoyevsky Project: Hospital Automation, final stage Learning: Image analysis, LINQ Now and forever, defiant to the end. What is Multiple Sclerosis[^]?
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Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
I have to ask, do you use and trust webmail like google mail or yahoo mail?
For personal use, yes. For corporate? No. :-D Think about it. If your entire infrastructure is in the cloud, who are you dependant on for you companies continued existence? You add in companies you hardly know, that are responsible to governments you don't have any input to. Suppose you are an EU company, that uses cloud services that happen to be based in the states. If the US government decides to restrict technology from access by certain countries (as they did with Pentiums etc during the later part of last century) what happens to your entire infrastructure? Remember that governments are not well known for being able to differentiate between their arses and their elbows! Why put your critical services at the mercy of others to any greater degree than you have to? :laugh:
You should never use standby on an elephant. It always crashes when you lift the ears. - Mark Wallace C/C++ (I dont see a huge difference between them, and the 'benefits' of C++ are questionable, who needs inheritance when you have copy and paste) - fat_boy
You don't even have to bring in the government for the situation to get unworkable. In the early 90's, a large US corporation (hereafter named mega-corp) outsourced its mainframe systems. The vendor was repsonsible for maintaining the old machines, while mega-corp retained legal ownership of the data (I don't know who technically owned the hardware). But significantly it was the vendor who effectively owned the access interface. Along comes the web, and it was desireable to develop web clients for access to the data. But the mainframe interface needed some significant upgrading to support web clients. Vendor wanted everyone's first-borm and then some to do the work, and instead, mega-corp wrote massive amounts of screen-scrape code to get at their own data.
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Not the naturally phenomena of water droplets grouping together to make fluffy pillows in the sky. I'm talking cloud computing. Primarily, I'm wondering with regards to function. I can see the point behind massive scalability, I can see how that plays with the economies of scale. But here I am wondering about your typical non-web based and non-data centric applications. Like build servers. How would something like that benefit from "the cloud"? It makes perfect sense to have storage space, databases, platforms and applications deployed on the cloud. But wouldn't some sort of grid processing for mega-compilers also work?
If the post was helpful, please vote, eh! Current activities: Book: Devils by Fyodor Dostoyevsky Project: Hospital Automation, final stage Learning: Image analysis, LINQ Now and forever, defiant to the end. What is Multiple Sclerosis[^]?
