Stop the madness Steve Jobs
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RichardM1 wrote:
All MS apps for the phone ARE written in managed code.
Irrelevant. The point is that now ALL apps must be written in managed code, not just MS's. And this is a new restriction, similar to that from Apple. That's all I'm sayin'.
RichardM1 wrote:
But where does it say they will brick your phone if you write one that isn't?
The statement from Petzold doesn't say native apps will brick your phone. It just says they won't run. (At least that's the way I'm reading it.)
RichardM1 wrote:
But what you say could be possible, if they have a chip that runs IL directly. Then not just the apps, but the OS is written in it, too.
This is just speculation, but I don't think that would be necessary. All they need to do is block execution of native C++ apps that aren't part of the OS. And it sounds as if that's what they're doing, one way or another.
L u n a t i c F r i n g e
LunaticFringe wrote:
The point is that now ALL apps must be written in managed code, not just MS's. And this is a new restriction, similar to that from Apple. That's all I'm sayin'.
I think you are stretching to get from "are" to "must be", that's all I'm saying. ;)
LunaticFringe wrote:
The statement from Petzold doesn't say native apps will brick your phone. It just says they won't run. (At least that's the way I'm reading it.)
In fact it says NOTHING about what will run, managed code or otherwise. THEIR c# apps might not run. Have you thought about that? So, I know that is how you are reading it, and I think you are reading too much into it. Almost to the point of asking if your account was been hacked by CSS. :rolleyes:
Opacity, the new Transparency.
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Ya know, I'll bash Apple when the time calls for it. But, do you realize just how many embedded devices only support X languages? Just because the iPhone is more robust shouldn't mean it should be the only one under scrutiny at CP. And, I'd be willing to think it's more about quality control than anything else. After all, Apple cares about that stuff. It's easier to make one or two things work really well than a thousand. And I mean really, C/C++ is so popular it's not like they picked a bad choice of supported languages. Their whole model is around a tight ship on the machines they make. I mean, this isn't really a shock here. The trade off is a better experience rather than a ton of crashes. No, this does not mean stuff will never crash before someone twists my words. I would love to see you actually post some pro Apple stuff.
Jeremy Falcon
I'm not really out to bash them at all, we've just been discussing it here off an on for some time and I have a small interest in it as a potential development platform but seemingly weekly now something comes along that wanes my interest more and more.
Jeremy Falcon wrote:
And, I'd be willing to think it's more about quality control than anything else.
There's one thing it's always about first and foremost and that's profit. They've determined their way to profit is by tightly restricting what runs in their hardware. However they take it to drastic lengths and it's not always about technical limitations, in fact it's often *not* about technical issues at all and more about business issues.
Jeremy Falcon wrote:
I would love to see you actually post some pro Apple stuff.
Me? Half the planet seemingly does that every second of the day. Surely any negative posts about Apple are a drop in the bucket.
Yesterday they said today was tomorrow but today they know better. - Poul Anderson
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But, it's Microsoft doing it, so that's ok.
Jeremy Falcon
I am no MS fanboy. :rolleyes: I used a Lisa before I used a PC. C# is cool, because it almost to where objective-C was, back on the next boxes. It's just LF is talking like CSS here. He went from a statement that said "are" straight to "must from now on, or they will not work, we will put fluoride in your water and have aliens visit you with probes"
Opacity, the new Transparency.
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LunaticFringe wrote:
It must be tough when they're too stupid to debate an issue that really bothers them, and they're reduced to prowling the lounge looking for revenge on irrelevant threads.
Which is why I've given up defending Apple on here. You can't fight zealotry with intelligence.
Jeremy Falcon
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Joe Woodbury wrote:
First reports are that Windows Phone 7 is extremely unstable so it doesn't really matter what language you use.
Gee, what a surprise. Any word on when Phone7 SP1 will be released? :laugh:
L u n a t i c F r i n g e
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LunaticFringe wrote:
The point is that now ALL apps must be written in managed code, not just MS's. And this is a new restriction, similar to that from Apple. That's all I'm sayin'.
I think you are stretching to get from "are" to "must be", that's all I'm saying. ;)
LunaticFringe wrote:
The statement from Petzold doesn't say native apps will brick your phone. It just says they won't run. (At least that's the way I'm reading it.)
In fact it says NOTHING about what will run, managed code or otherwise. THEIR c# apps might not run. Have you thought about that? So, I know that is how you are reading it, and I think you are reading too much into it. Almost to the point of asking if your account was been hacked by CSS. :rolleyes:
Opacity, the new Transparency.
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Latest beta of what? The phone? There isn't any beta hardware out. There's "oh, here's what we're working on" preview, and it's entirely private, given to a few select individuals. The only thing the public has is the WP7 Emulator. Seriously, people. Complaining something is unstable when said thing is 8+ months away, and not even available to the public, is just whiny foolishness.
Religiously blogging on the intarwebs since the early 21st century: Kineti L'Tziyon
Judah Himango -
I am no MS fanboy. :rolleyes: I used a Lisa before I used a PC. C# is cool, because it almost to where objective-C was, back on the next boxes. It's just LF is talking like CSS here. He went from a statement that said "are" straight to "must from now on, or they will not work, we will put fluoride in your water and have aliens visit you with probes"
Opacity, the new Transparency.
And as I said above, you come up with MS documentation that definitively contradicts Petzold's statement. As of now, you have nothing to back up your position except empty speculation. The fact is, as currently stated, only managed apps will be allowed to run on the platform. Your statements to the contrary have nothing to back them up - you're talking out your ass.
L u n a t i c F r i n g e
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All MS apps for the phone ARE written in managed code. :laugh: But where does it say they will brick your phone if you write one that isn't? But what you say could be possible, if they have a chip that runs IL directly. Then not just the apps, but the OS is written in it, too.
Opacity, the new Transparency.
RichardM1 wrote:
But what you say could be possible, if they have a chip that runs IL directly. Then not just the apps, but the OS is written in it, too.
It's called a sandbox. The managed apps play in it, and talk to the unmanaged OS via an API to accomplish things like launching other programs. That's how Silverlight, etc. work on the desktop: you can't write an app that just shells out "FORMAT c: /Q /X" as soon as the user looks the other way...
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Well, I'll tell you what. You come up with documentation from MS that contradicts Petzold's statement. Until that happens, you're talking out your ass. ;)
L u n a t i c F r i n g e
LunaticFringe wrote:
that Petzold said:
The Windows Phone 7 Series operating system exposes classes defined by the .NET Compact Framework. All programs for the phone are written in managed code. At the present time, C# is the only supported programming language.
LunaticFringe wrote:
Well, I'll tell you what. You come up with documentation from MS that contradicts Petzold's statement. Until that happens, you're talking out your ass.
Well, I'll tell you what. You come up with where Petzold says c++ apps won't work. Until that happens, YOU are talking out MY ass! :laugh:
Opacity, the new Transparency.
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I'm not really out to bash them at all, we've just been discussing it here off an on for some time and I have a small interest in it as a potential development platform but seemingly weekly now something comes along that wanes my interest more and more.
Jeremy Falcon wrote:
And, I'd be willing to think it's more about quality control than anything else.
There's one thing it's always about first and foremost and that's profit. They've determined their way to profit is by tightly restricting what runs in their hardware. However they take it to drastic lengths and it's not always about technical limitations, in fact it's often *not* about technical issues at all and more about business issues.
Jeremy Falcon wrote:
I would love to see you actually post some pro Apple stuff.
Me? Half the planet seemingly does that every second of the day. Surely any negative posts about Apple are a drop in the bucket.
Yesterday they said today was tomorrow but today they know better. - Poul Anderson
John C wrote:
There's one thing it's always about first and foremost and that's profit. They've determined their way to profit is by tightly restricting what runs in their hardware. However they take it to drastic lengths and it's not always about technical limitations, in fact it's often *not* about technical issues at all and more about business issues.
This is Apple we're talking about. Yeah they want profit, but their whole business model revolves around controlling every aspect of the game. Personally, I don't think they'll lose profit over this move. If anything, one of the competing phones out there would do that before this would.
Jeremy Falcon
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And as I said above, you come up with MS documentation that definitively contradicts Petzold's statement. As of now, you have nothing to back up your position except empty speculation. The fact is, as currently stated, only managed apps will be allowed to run on the platform. Your statements to the contrary have nothing to back them up - you're talking out your ass.
L u n a t i c F r i n g e
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LunaticFringe wrote:
that Petzold said:
The Windows Phone 7 Series operating system exposes classes defined by the .NET Compact Framework. All programs for the phone are written in managed code. At the present time, C# is the only supported programming language.
LunaticFringe wrote:
Well, I'll tell you what. You come up with documentation from MS that contradicts Petzold's statement. Until that happens, you're talking out your ass.
Well, I'll tell you what. You come up with where Petzold says c++ apps won't work. Until that happens, YOU are talking out MY ass! :laugh:
Opacity, the new Transparency.
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RichardM1 wrote:
But what you say could be possible, if they have a chip that runs IL directly. Then not just the apps, but the OS is written in it, too.
It's called a sandbox. The managed apps play in it, and talk to the unmanaged OS via an API to accomplish things like launching other programs. That's how Silverlight, etc. work on the desktop: you can't write an app that just shells out "FORMAT c: /Q /X" as soon as the user looks the other way...
Shog9 wrote:
you can't write an app that just shells out "FORMAT c: /Q /X" as soon as the user looks the other way...
You are darned right you can't! Any real man spawns format right under the users nose! This would require that the interface was defined in IL, or else it would be open to any app that knows the API? It isn't phrased well, but it is a question.
Opacity, the new Transparency.
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John C wrote:
There's one thing it's always about first and foremost and that's profit. They've determined their way to profit is by tightly restricting what runs in their hardware. However they take it to drastic lengths and it's not always about technical limitations, in fact it's often *not* about technical issues at all and more about business issues.
This is Apple we're talking about. Yeah they want profit, but their whole business model revolves around controlling every aspect of the game. Personally, I don't think they'll lose profit over this move. If anything, one of the competing phones out there would do that before this would.
Jeremy Falcon
Jeremy Falcon wrote:
I don't think they'll lose profit over this move.
No, I agree, but I don't care about their profitability, only the viability of the platform for publishing software on and as it stands I'm less interested than ever. I'm sure they have some sort of target market, some idealized individual apple consumer and they stick to them like glue.
Yesterday they said today was tomorrow but today they know better. - Poul Anderson
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RichardM1 wrote:
But what you say could be possible, if they have a chip that runs IL directly. Then not just the apps, but the OS is written in it, too.
It's called a sandbox. The managed apps play in it, and talk to the unmanaged OS via an API to accomplish things like launching other programs. That's how Silverlight, etc. work on the desktop: you can't write an app that just shells out "FORMAT c: /Q /X" as soon as the user looks the other way...
5 for technical geek accuracy, and with the hopes I can bug you for recipes now that I've started cooking. ;P
Jeremy Falcon
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Call the MS partner support phone line and ask them if 3rd party native C++ apps will be permitted on the Phone7 platform. I'll wait.
L u n a t i c F r i n g e
LunaticFringe wrote:
Call the MS partner support phone line and ask them if 3rd party native C++ apps will be permitted on the Phone7 platform. I'll wait.
I'm not a MS partner, and I'm not arguing for MS here, I just think you interpreted it waaaayyyyy tooooo much. Have you done it, and did they tell you C++ apps would not be permitted on the Phone7 platform? Do you have any more evidence then a real stretch interpretation of Petzold's statement that they plan on keeping other apps from running? You are actively claiming they are adding a restriction, if you have no more evidence than this statement, you have no evidence. Ff you don't have evidence, you are flying in CSS's air space, and are about to start an international incident. [edit]Unless, of course, he has given you permission. :rolleyes: [/edit]
Opacity, the new Transparency.
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I'm not really out to bash them at all, we've just been discussing it here off an on for some time and I have a small interest in it as a potential development platform but seemingly weekly now something comes along that wanes my interest more and more.
Jeremy Falcon wrote:
And, I'd be willing to think it's more about quality control than anything else.
There's one thing it's always about first and foremost and that's profit. They've determined their way to profit is by tightly restricting what runs in their hardware. However they take it to drastic lengths and it's not always about technical limitations, in fact it's often *not* about technical issues at all and more about business issues.
Jeremy Falcon wrote:
I would love to see you actually post some pro Apple stuff.
Me? Half the planet seemingly does that every second of the day. Surely any negative posts about Apple are a drop in the bucket.
Yesterday they said today was tomorrow but today they know better. - Poul Anderson
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I was more focused on the bottom line of what type of apps were to be allowed. Agreed, there's a difference in the structure of the restrictions as you note, but the end result is still similar, in that they've disallowed a whole class of apps that were previously permitted.
L u n a t i c F r i n g e
The other half is that Windows Phone 7 is a name-only successor to 6.5; and doesn't have have the stylus centric UI components that prior versions of winmo were build around and which had become hopelessly dated vs current touch screen designs. WinMo 6.5 will continue staggering towards the grave under the Windows Phone Starter[^] moniker. The new iPhone is just an incremental update to the old one with no reason other than Jobs' hatred of Adobe to justify the new restrictions.
3x12=36 2x12=24 1x12=12 0x12=18
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LunaticFringe wrote:
Call the MS partner support phone line and ask them if 3rd party native C++ apps will be permitted on the Phone7 platform. I'll wait.
I'm not a MS partner, and I'm not arguing for MS here, I just think you interpreted it waaaayyyyy tooooo much. Have you done it, and did they tell you C++ apps would not be permitted on the Phone7 platform? Do you have any more evidence then a real stretch interpretation of Petzold's statement that they plan on keeping other apps from running? You are actively claiming they are adding a restriction, if you have no more evidence than this statement, you have no evidence. Ff you don't have evidence, you are flying in CSS's air space, and are about to start an international incident. [edit]Unless, of course, he has given you permission. :rolleyes: [/edit]
Opacity, the new Transparency.
- Petzold's statement is not nuanced. He says all programs for the Phone7 platform are written in managed code. Period. You are free to visit the Windows Mobile developer portal page yourself and read further. Any reasonable person would interpret his statement as he clearly intended it. Parse it to your heart's content and look for meaning that isn't there if you like. 2) Here's the link to the Phone 7 developer portal - http://developer.windowsphone.com/windows-phone-7-series/[^]. There is a wealth of information, developer tools and other stuff available at the developer portal. Feel free to download and install the tools, read the documentation and avail yourself of all the other information they have there. And then come back with something that actually disputes the statement in the Petzold e-book. For instance, describe the process of developing a native C++ app with the only developer tool available. :rolleyes: And I'm not going to waste any more time on this. As I say, you are free to explore the Phone 7 developer portal, documentation and tools to your heart's content. [edit] By the way, the title of Petzold's book is 'Programming Windows Phone 7 Series'. The quote is from a section entitled 'Getting Started - Phone Hardware and Your Software'. It's a discussion of developing apps for the platform. One would think the context would make the meaning clear enough. And so enough of your bullshit. Come up with a native C++ app for the Phone7 platform. Show me a developer tool. Show me a document that says it's supported. Do something to actually back up your crap. [/edit]
L u n a t i c F r i n g e
modified on Monday, April 12, 2010 4:05 PM