I need a good argument....
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I have a co-worker who is trying to push agile on everyone and it's getting to be a problem. I need a good argument to not have to write "user stories" other than "It's a complete waste of time and provides me nothing useful".
Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
I'm looking forward to it; primarily because it should wipe that smug grin off Steve Jobs face.
sorry, this is Abuse. Argument is down the hall, room 12A.
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What is the alternative?
Some combination of screen shots, bullet points and nothing. All depends on what is needed for a particular project.
Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
I'm looking forward to it; primarily because it should wipe that smug grin off Steve Jobs face.
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I have a co-worker who is trying to push agile on everyone and it's getting to be a problem. I need a good argument to not have to write "user stories" other than "It's a complete waste of time and provides me nothing useful".
Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
I'm looking forward to it; primarily because it should wipe that smug grin off Steve Jobs face.
You cannot argue with agile people so just take the extreme approach and shoot him. :)
If the Lord God Almighty had consulted me before embarking upon the Creation, I would have recommended something simpler. -- Alfonso the Wise, 13th Century King of Castile.
This is going on my arrogant assumptions. You may have a superb reason why I'm completely wrong. -- Iain Clarke
[My articles] -
Some combination of screen shots, bullet points and nothing. All depends on what is needed for a particular project.
Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
I'm looking forward to it; primarily because it should wipe that smug grin off Steve Jobs face.
Shelby Robertson wrote:
nothing
If that is the option. I will say that you go with your co-worker. At least he is trying to do something in an organized way. As long as user stories are by users and not developer's imagination.
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Shelby Robertson wrote:
nothing
If that is the option. I will say that you go with your co-worker. At least he is trying to do something in an organized way. As long as user stories are by users and not developer's imagination.
Rama Krishna Vavilala wrote:
As long as user stories are by users and not developer's imagination.
No, No. He wants us developers writing the stories *AS* tech requirements...
Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
I'm looking forward to it; primarily because it should wipe that smug grin off Steve Jobs face.
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I have a co-worker who is trying to push agile on everyone and it's getting to be a problem. I need a good argument to not have to write "user stories" other than "It's a complete waste of time and provides me nothing useful".
Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
I'm looking forward to it; primarily because it should wipe that smug grin off Steve Jobs face.
Go read the BOFH[^]. That should provide you with the necessary guidance here.
¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF! Personal 3D projects Just Say No to Web 2 Point Blow
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I have a co-worker who is trying to push agile on everyone and it's getting to be a problem. I need a good argument to not have to write "user stories" other than "It's a complete waste of time and provides me nothing useful".
Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
I'm looking forward to it; primarily because it should wipe that smug grin off Steve Jobs face.
It's difficult without knowing how the department operates but how about telling him that's fine if he he can provide a set of processes and documents that show how he has implemented Agile without creating chaos. Provide an example of where good intentions created chaos and waste then he has to counter that argument. Elaine (trouble causing fluffy tigress)
Join the cool kids - Come fold with us[^]
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Rama Krishna Vavilala wrote:
As long as user stories are by users and not developer's imagination.
No, No. He wants us developers writing the stories *AS* tech requirements...
Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
I'm looking forward to it; primarily because it should wipe that smug grin off Steve Jobs face.
Why can't you just have a requirements phase, design phase, implementation phase, bug/support phase? Then you'd have documents that reflect each of these phases. It's not as though you don't go through some or all of this already on every project. Agile only makes sense in a vacuum if followed completely to the letter.
That's called seagull management (or sometimes pigeon management)... Fly in, flap your arms and squawk a lot, crap all over everything and fly out again... by _Damian S_
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Why can't you just have a requirements phase, design phase, implementation phase, bug/support phase? Then you'd have documents that reflect each of these phases. It's not as though you don't go through some or all of this already on every project. Agile only makes sense in a vacuum if followed completely to the letter.
That's called seagull management (or sometimes pigeon management)... Fly in, flap your arms and squawk a lot, crap all over everything and fly out again... by _Damian S_
wolfbinary wrote:
Why can't you just have a requirements phase, design phase, implementation phase, bug/support phase?
This is the process we have now. But when people come flying in out of grad school, Agile is the only thing that makes any sense in the world.
Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
I'm looking forward to it; primarily because it should wipe that smug grin off Steve Jobs face.
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I have a co-worker who is trying to push agile on everyone and it's getting to be a problem. I need a good argument to not have to write "user stories" other than "It's a complete waste of time and provides me nothing useful".
Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
I'm looking forward to it; primarily because it should wipe that smug grin off Steve Jobs face.
The user rep describes a usage scenario in simple, concise language. Expected results are described, as well as program behavior in response to common variations. Brevity and clarity are emphasized, and ambiguity is allowed; questions are inevitable and encouraged: discussion is good!
The user rep describes a scenario in broad, general terms. Each programmer takes a guess at what is actually desired, and keeps his conclusions to himself. During testing, all hell breaks loose. Generous helpings of blame are dished out, potluck-style.
A programmer meets with a random stakeholder, briefly, forms a vague idea of what is required, and immediately begins coding. The project descends into chaos and 5 minutes before the next meeting the programmer scrawls out something on an index card while hoping it placates the methodology-obsessed co-workers long enough for him to put out the fires.
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wolfbinary wrote:
Why can't you just have a requirements phase, design phase, implementation phase, bug/support phase?
This is the process we have now. But when people come flying in out of grad school, Agile is the only thing that makes any sense in the world.
Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
I'm looking forward to it; primarily because it should wipe that smug grin off Steve Jobs face.
I took a UML class and didn't find much use for it other than volumes of paper and useless documentation. They need to have to justify the break in current practice and provide a cost/benefit to the organization vs the other. If they can't then too bad for them. If you need user documentation then that could be helpful since Agile doesn't provide any. The only thing I have to say that I'd take from Agile that I did like was the short periods of development followed by constant review of the requirements and functionality with the business owner or customer.
That's called seagull management (or sometimes pigeon management)... Fly in, flap your arms and squawk a lot, crap all over everything and fly out again... by _Damian S_
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The user rep describes a usage scenario in simple, concise language. Expected results are described, as well as program behavior in response to common variations. Brevity and clarity are emphasized, and ambiguity is allowed; questions are inevitable and encouraged: discussion is good!
The user rep describes a scenario in broad, general terms. Each programmer takes a guess at what is actually desired, and keeps his conclusions to himself. During testing, all hell breaks loose. Generous helpings of blame are dished out, potluck-style.
A programmer meets with a random stakeholder, briefly, forms a vague idea of what is required, and immediately begins coding. The project descends into chaos and 5 minutes before the next meeting the programmer scrawls out something on an index card while hoping it placates the methodology-obsessed co-workers long enough for him to put out the fires.
nothing like the voice of wisdom. So sad but true! :)
¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF! Personal 3D projects Just Say No to Web 2 Point Blow
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I have a co-worker who is trying to push agile on everyone and it's getting to be a problem. I need a good argument to not have to write "user stories" other than "It's a complete waste of time and provides me nothing useful".
Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
I'm looking forward to it; primarily because it should wipe that smug grin off Steve Jobs face.
User stories are good as long as they actually have users contributing to them and don't form the only documentation you have.
"WPF has many lovers. It's a veritable porn star!" - Josh Smith
As Braveheart once said, "You can take our freedom but you'll never take our Hobnobs!" - Martin Hughes.
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I have a co-worker who is trying to push agile on everyone and it's getting to be a problem. I need a good argument to not have to write "user stories" other than "It's a complete waste of time and provides me nothing useful".
Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
I'm looking forward to it; primarily because it should wipe that smug grin off Steve Jobs face.
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I'd be interested seeing the storyboard for that one.
"WPF has many lovers. It's a veritable porn star!" - Josh Smith
As Braveheart once said, "You can take our freedom but you'll never take our Hobnobs!" - Martin Hughes.
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Rama Krishna Vavilala wrote:
As long as user stories are by users and not developer's imagination.
No, No. He wants us developers writing the stories *AS* tech requirements...
Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
I'm looking forward to it; primarily because it should wipe that smug grin off Steve Jobs face.
If you're not going to actually solicit requirements from your users in some form or other, but instead are going to depend on developers to invent them in the form of "user stories" you might as well not waste time and effort on the user stories. Just tell the developers to "Do Whatever You Think Is Right". It will be just as (in)effective, the resulting product will have just as little to do with user expectations and you'll save all that time you would have wasted on "user stories". Tell your co-worker that they are called user stories for a reason. What he's proposing are not user stories, but more like developer imaginings, and are worse than a waste of time, because they'll actually give you false confidence that you are somehow satisfying something akin to requirements, a false confidence that will explode into despair when the first actual user contacts the product.
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I have a co-worker who is trying to push agile on everyone and it's getting to be a problem. I need a good argument to not have to write "user stories" other than "It's a complete waste of time and provides me nothing useful".
Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
I'm looking forward to it; primarily because it should wipe that smug grin off Steve Jobs face.
Personally, I find that they have got there place in the requirements definition from time to time. But agile seems to far too often be a thin excuse for no design so I tend to steer away from all of it's practices. I think Joel Spolsky had an article on how he writes specs (something like "painless functional specs") which used user stories - might be worth looking up and reading for working out some pros and cons. Chris
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I have a co-worker who is trying to push agile on everyone and it's getting to be a problem. I need a good argument to not have to write "user stories" other than "It's a complete waste of time and provides me nothing useful".
Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
I'm looking forward to it; primarily because it should wipe that smug grin off Steve Jobs face.
Why do you have a problem with writing down what you're going to do in plain language before you do it?
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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I'd be interested seeing the storyboard for that one.
"WPF has many lovers. It's a veritable porn star!" - Josh Smith
As Braveheart once said, "You can take our freedom but you'll never take our Hobnobs!" - Martin Hughes.
There's an App for that too! I think it's sometimes referred to as GTA IV :)
¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF! Personal 3D projects Just Say No to Web 2 Point Blow
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Why do you have a problem with writing down what you're going to do in plain language before you do it?
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
Mark Wallace wrote:
Why do you have a problem with writing down what you're going to do in plain language before you do it?
What does that have to do with a user story? Wouldn't that be me writing down what a user would be doing? Assuming I'm not a user, what value is there in that?
Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
I'm looking forward to it; primarily because it should wipe that smug grin off Steve Jobs face.