I need a good argument....
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wolfbinary wrote:
Why can't you just have a requirements phase, design phase, implementation phase, bug/support phase?
This is the process we have now. But when people come flying in out of grad school, Agile is the only thing that makes any sense in the world.
Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
I'm looking forward to it; primarily because it should wipe that smug grin off Steve Jobs face.
I took a UML class and didn't find much use for it other than volumes of paper and useless documentation. They need to have to justify the break in current practice and provide a cost/benefit to the organization vs the other. If they can't then too bad for them. If you need user documentation then that could be helpful since Agile doesn't provide any. The only thing I have to say that I'd take from Agile that I did like was the short periods of development followed by constant review of the requirements and functionality with the business owner or customer.
That's called seagull management (or sometimes pigeon management)... Fly in, flap your arms and squawk a lot, crap all over everything and fly out again... by _Damian S_
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The user rep describes a usage scenario in simple, concise language. Expected results are described, as well as program behavior in response to common variations. Brevity and clarity are emphasized, and ambiguity is allowed; questions are inevitable and encouraged: discussion is good!
The user rep describes a scenario in broad, general terms. Each programmer takes a guess at what is actually desired, and keeps his conclusions to himself. During testing, all hell breaks loose. Generous helpings of blame are dished out, potluck-style.
A programmer meets with a random stakeholder, briefly, forms a vague idea of what is required, and immediately begins coding. The project descends into chaos and 5 minutes before the next meeting the programmer scrawls out something on an index card while hoping it placates the methodology-obsessed co-workers long enough for him to put out the fires.
nothing like the voice of wisdom. So sad but true! :)
¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF! Personal 3D projects Just Say No to Web 2 Point Blow
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I have a co-worker who is trying to push agile on everyone and it's getting to be a problem. I need a good argument to not have to write "user stories" other than "It's a complete waste of time and provides me nothing useful".
Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
I'm looking forward to it; primarily because it should wipe that smug grin off Steve Jobs face.
User stories are good as long as they actually have users contributing to them and don't form the only documentation you have.
"WPF has many lovers. It's a veritable porn star!" - Josh Smith
As Braveheart once said, "You can take our freedom but you'll never take our Hobnobs!" - Martin Hughes.
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I have a co-worker who is trying to push agile on everyone and it's getting to be a problem. I need a good argument to not have to write "user stories" other than "It's a complete waste of time and provides me nothing useful".
Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
I'm looking forward to it; primarily because it should wipe that smug grin off Steve Jobs face.
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I'd be interested seeing the storyboard for that one.
"WPF has many lovers. It's a veritable porn star!" - Josh Smith
As Braveheart once said, "You can take our freedom but you'll never take our Hobnobs!" - Martin Hughes.
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Rama Krishna Vavilala wrote:
As long as user stories are by users and not developer's imagination.
No, No. He wants us developers writing the stories *AS* tech requirements...
Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
I'm looking forward to it; primarily because it should wipe that smug grin off Steve Jobs face.
If you're not going to actually solicit requirements from your users in some form or other, but instead are going to depend on developers to invent them in the form of "user stories" you might as well not waste time and effort on the user stories. Just tell the developers to "Do Whatever You Think Is Right". It will be just as (in)effective, the resulting product will have just as little to do with user expectations and you'll save all that time you would have wasted on "user stories". Tell your co-worker that they are called user stories for a reason. What he's proposing are not user stories, but more like developer imaginings, and are worse than a waste of time, because they'll actually give you false confidence that you are somehow satisfying something akin to requirements, a false confidence that will explode into despair when the first actual user contacts the product.
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I have a co-worker who is trying to push agile on everyone and it's getting to be a problem. I need a good argument to not have to write "user stories" other than "It's a complete waste of time and provides me nothing useful".
Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
I'm looking forward to it; primarily because it should wipe that smug grin off Steve Jobs face.
Personally, I find that they have got there place in the requirements definition from time to time. But agile seems to far too often be a thin excuse for no design so I tend to steer away from all of it's practices. I think Joel Spolsky had an article on how he writes specs (something like "painless functional specs") which used user stories - might be worth looking up and reading for working out some pros and cons. Chris
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I have a co-worker who is trying to push agile on everyone and it's getting to be a problem. I need a good argument to not have to write "user stories" other than "It's a complete waste of time and provides me nothing useful".
Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
I'm looking forward to it; primarily because it should wipe that smug grin off Steve Jobs face.
Why do you have a problem with writing down what you're going to do in plain language before you do it?
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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I'd be interested seeing the storyboard for that one.
"WPF has many lovers. It's a veritable porn star!" - Josh Smith
As Braveheart once said, "You can take our freedom but you'll never take our Hobnobs!" - Martin Hughes.
There's an App for that too! I think it's sometimes referred to as GTA IV :)
¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF! Personal 3D projects Just Say No to Web 2 Point Blow
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Why do you have a problem with writing down what you're going to do in plain language before you do it?
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
Mark Wallace wrote:
Why do you have a problem with writing down what you're going to do in plain language before you do it?
What does that have to do with a user story? Wouldn't that be me writing down what a user would be doing? Assuming I'm not a user, what value is there in that?
Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
I'm looking forward to it; primarily because it should wipe that smug grin off Steve Jobs face.
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I have a co-worker who is trying to push agile on everyone and it's getting to be a problem. I need a good argument to not have to write "user stories" other than "It's a complete waste of time and provides me nothing useful".
Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
I'm looking forward to it; primarily because it should wipe that smug grin off Steve Jobs face.
Arguing with religion is both futile and dangerous.
Christopher Duncan
www.PracticalUSA.com
Author of The Career Programmer and Unite the Tribes
Copywriting Services -
Why do you have a problem with writing down what you're going to do in plain language before you do it?
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
it just confuses the issue
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I have a co-worker who is trying to push agile on everyone and it's getting to be a problem. I need a good argument to not have to write "user stories" other than "It's a complete waste of time and provides me nothing useful".
Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
I'm looking forward to it; primarily because it should wipe that smug grin off Steve Jobs face.
Tell him he can do whatever he wants, then get back to work.
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it just confuses the issue
You're right. It does have that in it's favour.
Henry Minute Do not read medical books! You could die of a misprint. - Mark Twain Girl: (staring) "Why do you need an icy cucumber?" “I want to report a fraud. The government is lying to us all.”
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I have a co-worker who is trying to push agile on everyone and it's getting to be a problem. I need a good argument to not have to write "user stories" other than "It's a complete waste of time and provides me nothing useful".
Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
I'm looking forward to it; primarily because it should wipe that smug grin off Steve Jobs face.
Work up the most intense wild-eyed gaze you can muster, and in a quiet, measured tone, tell him if he mentions it again, you'll be forced to punch him in the mouth. Whatever you do, don't smile. He'll take you seriously.
.45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly
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"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997
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"The staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - J. Jystad, 2001 -
Work up the most intense wild-eyed gaze you can muster, and in a quiet, measured tone, tell him if he mentions it again, you'll be forced to punch him in the mouth. Whatever you do, don't smile. He'll take you seriously.
.45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly
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"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997
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"The staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - J. Jystad, 2001 -
I have a co-worker who is trying to push agile on everyone and it's getting to be a problem. I need a good argument to not have to write "user stories" other than "It's a complete waste of time and provides me nothing useful".
Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
I'm looking forward to it; primarily because it should wipe that smug grin off Steve Jobs face.
User stories are a good method of communication between potential users and techs. Agile has much worse things. They have a good chance to catch the classic "this is not what I wanted" problem before any code is written if you use them to discuss the project with users As tech-to-tech spec, they are stupid - I agree with that. Beat him at his own game. Show him how agile is done right :cool:
Agh! Reality! My Archnemesis![^]
| FoldWithUs! | sighist | µLaunch - program launcher for server core and hyper-v server. -
I have a co-worker who is trying to push agile on everyone and it's getting to be a problem. I need a good argument to not have to write "user stories" other than "It's a complete waste of time and provides me nothing useful".
Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
I'm looking forward to it; primarily because it should wipe that smug grin off Steve Jobs face.
Actually, it's not a complete waste of time if done correctly (i.e. as an organization, not in isolation). The stakeholders (who typically aren't the developers) have to buy into, understand and follow the agile process, along with the devs, for it to be useful. Otherwise, it can easily lead to pure chaos. /ravi
My new year resolution: 2048 x 1536 Home | Articles | My .NET bits | Freeware ravib(at)ravib(dot)com
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I have a co-worker who is trying to push agile on everyone and it's getting to be a problem. I need a good argument to not have to write "user stories" other than "It's a complete waste of time and provides me nothing useful".
Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
I'm looking forward to it; primarily because it should wipe that smug grin off Steve Jobs face.
If you're a software developer, which I assume you are ... then you're not supposed to write user stories, the Product Owner does that, so ... as soon as you have a Product Owner, and they work the back log and write the necessary user stories, then you can start working on it. In the meantime, might I suggest taking some time off, whilst that co-worker of yours figures this out.
:..::. Douglas H. Troy ::..
Bad Astronomy |VCF|wxWidgets|WTL -
Grin with your mouth but your eyes and the rest of your face stay ice cold. Mixed up body language can really freak people out. [Evil grin]
Join the cool kids - Come fold with us[^]
It's tough to get that patented "crazy" grin. I've mastered it, but I didn't want to give too much to do in one lesson.
.45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly
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"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997
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"The staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - J. Jystad, 2001
