Speaking in 'toungues'
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So God makes people speak in a language only he can understand? Wouldn't that imply that he would already know what was being said in tongues and therefore make the entire exercise irrelevant? It's like me inventing a written language that only I understand, sending you a long email in this language for you to send back to me. What I would like to know is has anyone spoken in tongues without having heard about it before hand? If everyone that has spoken in tongues has already been told that God will interact with them this way and they want God to interact with them it seems likely that it's just their subconscious fucking with them. But you're right, it is fucking funny to see.
Josh Gray wrote:
So God makes people speak in a language only he can understand? Wouldn't that imply that he would already know what was being said in tongues and therefore make the entire exercise irrelevant?
The point is entirely that we are given the words we need to speak.
Josh Gray wrote:
What I would like to know is has anyone spoken in tongues without having heard about it before hand?
Yes. There are people in my church who prayed to God for salvation, spoke in tongues, had no idea what it meant, and found our church.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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They are not Christians at all. A Christian, at the point of conversion, speaks in tongues. That's what the Bible says. They are not deliberately fake, they are simply religious without being Christians.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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harold aptroot wrote:
How about "if you're not speaking in tongues, you are not really a christian"?
Well, that's what the Bible says. It depends on if you let God define Christian, or you think there is no God, in which case, anyone who wants to call themselves a Christian is free to do so.
harold aptroot wrote:
Researchers at the University of Pennsylvania took brain images of five women while they spoke in tongues and found that their frontal lobes — the thinking, willful part of the brain through which people control what they do — were relatively quiet, as were the language centers. The regions involved in maintaining self-consciousness were active.
Indicating that they don't understand what they are saying, just like the Bible says they wouldn't.
harold aptroot wrote:
And the brain is purely chemical - if god were poking around in the brain, it would be measurable.
ROTFL !!!!! The brain is chemical, but this sort of diagnosis and over examination is the self defeating. It allows people who reject God to try to take some sort of high moral ground, while simultaneously have nothing to do with the topic at hand. Given that God made my brain, why should I, with the limited human understanding of how it works, tell Him how it MUST work, for Him to exist ?
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
Christian Graus wrote:
The brain is chemical, but this sort of diagnosis and over examination is the self defeating. It allows people who reject God to try to take some sort of high moral ground, while simultaneously have nothing to do with the topic at hand. Given that God made my brain, why should I, with the limited human understanding of how it works, tell Him how it MUST work, for Him to exist ?
I respectfully disagree. God didn't make the brain, evolution did and there's plenty of evidence to back that up. Even if he did, though, that would just mean that he "hardcoded" speaking in tongues into the brain - then why aren't we all speaking in tongues?
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Josh Gray wrote:
So God makes people speak in a language only he can understand? Wouldn't that imply that he would already know what was being said in tongues and therefore make the entire exercise irrelevant?
The point is entirely that we are given the words we need to speak.
Josh Gray wrote:
What I would like to know is has anyone spoken in tongues without having heard about it before hand?
Yes. There are people in my church who prayed to God for salvation, spoke in tongues, had no idea what it meant, and found our church.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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Josh Gray wrote:
So God makes people speak in a language only he can understand? Wouldn't that imply that he would already know what was being said in tongues and therefore make the entire exercise irrelevant?
The point is entirely that we are given the words we need to speak.
Josh Gray wrote:
What I would like to know is has anyone spoken in tongues without having heard about it before hand?
Yes. There are people in my church who prayed to God for salvation, spoke in tongues, had no idea what it meant, and found our church.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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They are not Christians at all. A Christian, at the point of conversion, speaks in tongues. That's what the Bible says. They are not deliberately fake, they are simply religious without being Christians.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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They are not Christians at all. A Christian, at the point of conversion, speaks in tongues. That's what the Bible says. They are not deliberately fake, they are simply religious without being Christians.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
Christian Graus wrote:
They are not Christians at all. A Christian, at the point of conversion, speaks in tongues. That's what the Bible says. They are not deliberately fake, they are simply religious without being Christians.
15He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. 16Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.” Did you do all of those other things as well?
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Josh Gray wrote:
So God makes people speak in a language only he can understand? Wouldn't that imply that he would already know what was being said in tongues and therefore make the entire exercise irrelevant?
All of omniscience and omnipotence fails like that, and even more strongly. They're riddled with paradoxes.
Ravel H. Joyce wrote:
omniscience and omnipotence
A small difficulty for most gods here - omniscience and omnipotence are actually mutually exclusive. If you know everything that will happen, ever, then your ability to change things means that you didn't really know in the first place... Sorry, did I just mess with your head? :laugh:
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fat_boy wrote:
OK, not naming names here, but it turns out there are some CP members who do.
*grin* yes, well, I have been clear that I do, and I think there was a thread yesterday where some others say they do.
fat_boy wrote:
Now I have always found this hysterically funny. How supposedly grown up people can be so self delusional as to make complete idiots out of themselves by gibbering away like this is just so deeply funny.
The Bible says that God has deliberately chosen things that seem foolish, so as to confound people who think they are wise. The simple answer is, if you just observe it, and do not experience it, then it seems indistinguishable from 'gibbering away', but it is not the same at all. It's actually quite clever in my mind, because it's something visible that is proof to the individual who has experienced it, but does not negate the need for faith in those who have not.
fat_boy wrote:
I always associated this behaviour with fairly stupid people. After all stupid peopel are easially duped, but to hear of CP members bragging about 'speaking in toungues' is almost disturbing.
I am sorry that you think I was bragging. I am not, I am just stating a fact. My experience is that I went to a lot of churches and did what they told me, but until I was told what the Bible says ( that I would speak in tongues when I became a Christian ), I saw no results in my life. When I did, my life changed completely.
fat_boy wrote:
How can these people seriously think this is a language spoken by god?
Well, that's actually not the claim. It's not that it's the language God speaks. It's a language God gives and understands. That's different.
fat_boy wrote:
OK, so lets assume it is, has anyone got a dictionary? Can anyone trace the etymology of Sanscrit or Hebrew, or anyother ancient language back to 'toungue'? After all, we all did speak this one language way back, or so the Bible says, so any of those older languages would derrive from this common language in the way that most European languages derrive for Sanskrit.
That's not the point of it at all. There is no claim that it's Hebrew, or any other language. It's a language only God understands, not a specific earthly language.
So its not supposed to be understood by anyone, is unique from one person to the next, isnt really a language, but a series of noises given to you by the holy ghost to enable you to pray effectively. And you have no idea what you are saying, or praying for when you are gibbering away?
Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription
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The problem is, I am not actually aware I am spelling it wrong!
Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription
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Ravel H. Joyce wrote:
omniscience and omnipotence
A small difficulty for most gods here - omniscience and omnipotence are actually mutually exclusive. If you know everything that will happen, ever, then your ability to change things means that you didn't really know in the first place... Sorry, did I just mess with your head? :laugh:
No, it made perfect sense, and I have in fact argued the same thing a while back. You can't have both, or either, and remain internally consistent.
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Christian Graus wrote:
They are not Christians at all. A Christian, at the point of conversion, speaks in tongues. That's what the Bible says. They are not deliberately fake, they are simply religious without being Christians.
15He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. 16Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.” Did you do all of those other things as well?
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Ah, so you think the speaker doesnt actually know what he is saying? Hmm, that is bizare. What is the point then? As you say, surely thinking, or saying it in ones normal language is more meaningful. They could just be reciting his shopping list. They would never know. Is that devout worship?
Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription
fat_boy wrote:
They could just be reciting his shopping list. They would never know.
I have to respond to this. This might be the funniest point I have ever heard about this subject. Seriously brilliant.
If I have accidentally said something witty, smart, or correct, it is purely by mistake and I apologize for it.
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No, it made perfect sense, and I have in fact argued the same thing a while back. You can't have both, or either, and remain internally consistent.
Very true... Omniscience: Knowing the past and present can be internally consistent, but knowing the future is not. If you work on the "fate" hypothesis, where everything is preordained, then you can know your future actions and thus act differently. If you work on the "butterfly effect" hypothesis, then merely knowing the future makes that knowledge mostly invalid (The act of learning about it changes it). Omnipotence: Easy... The old saying... "Can you make a stone so heavy that you yourself can't lift it?" So either one leads to paradox.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels) -
(char)rnd.NextInt((int)'a',(int)'z');(Yeah, I know that's not correct code, but you get the point)Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels) -
fat_boy wrote:
I always associated this behaviour with fairly stupid people.
No one is so paranoid as to not be to be duped by something in their life. While I have mocked them myself because I found it pretty funny I wouldn't pick an argument just so I could bash them.
fat_boy wrote:
How can these people seriously think this is a language spoken by god?
They have faith and have provided themselves with nonscientific proof.
fat_boy wrote:
So, come on you gibbering religious types, got any proof that you arent completely bonkers? Can you provide a dictionary and if not why not? You make an audible sound, why cant it be represented by any of the 46 or so common phonemes and written down?
Did you only start this thread to be insidiary and combative?
That's called seagull management (or sometimes pigeon management)... Fly in, flap your arms and squawk a lot, crap all over everything and fly out again... by _Damian S_
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Christian Graus wrote:
They are not Christians at all. A Christian, at the point of conversion, speaks in tongues. That's what the Bible says. They are not deliberately fake, they are simply religious without being Christians.
15He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. 16Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.” Did you do all of those other things as well?
Ravel H. Joyce wrote:
to all creation
What, to plants, and cats and stuff?
Ravel H. Joyce wrote:
16Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved
So you can baptize a plant?
Ravel H. Joyce wrote:
drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues
So the plants and cats and stuff are going to speak new tongues? (Unless the new tongue is just English. Afetr all, at the time it would be a new tongue.)
Ravel H. Joyce wrote:
Did you do all of those other things as well?
Now you are just being clever! After all, if you dont drink deadly poison you arent a christian, despite what the snake handlilng people say, or the tongue gibbers say! :)
Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription