New Boss Equals Many Changes
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Good question, well written. 5.
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So, my team (I’m the programming manger) has been developing Web/Windows based applications using, dare I say…VB.NET (go ahead, say what you want, we like it, it does what we need it to do, and our end users/customers absolutely love what we do for them, so let the jokes fly if you must… :) ). Anyway, we just got a new Director, and his first mandate is to stop all VB.NET development and start doing it in C# (something about his prior team not being able to do something in VB.NET, like a web service, so they just switched to C#). Good news is that my team can actually code in either, though we’re much better with VB.NET so any new development won’t be too difficult. BUT! Our existing code/applications, some of which took years to write and get to the point of where they are today won’t be so much fun. So, is there any reliable tool(s) out there, that folks have actual experience with, that we can use to convert or assist us in conversion? I see plenty in my Google search, but have no personal experience. My team is small, yet we produce a high quantity (as well as very high quality) of projects for our end users and have a running list to keep us busy for a very long time. We view that as a slow down to that process (yet we don’t have any problem switching as we see either one as a viable solution for our development efforts). Thanks in advance.
It sounds like he's made a snap decision, based on experience with a company other than yours (which therefore has different needs), so has not looked seriously at the overall profit from changing everything. Changing a process or working practice must (in order of priority): 0. Provide better service to customers. 1. Save on production time and/or overheads, with no loss in the quality of delivered goods. 2. Make the work easier, again with no loss in the quality of delivered goods. "I prefer it this way!" is Never a good enough reason for changing established processes, and the cost of making a change has to be properly assessed and tested before it's foist on people. I have a word for people who breeze in and say "Oh, we should do everything this way!", but this forum is KSS.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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It sounds like he's made a snap decision, based on experience with a company other than yours (which therefore has different needs), so has not looked seriously at the overall profit from changing everything. Changing a process or working practice must (in order of priority): 0. Provide better service to customers. 1. Save on production time and/or overheads, with no loss in the quality of delivered goods. 2. Make the work easier, again with no loss in the quality of delivered goods. "I prefer it this way!" is Never a good enough reason for changing established processes, and the cost of making a change has to be properly assessed and tested before it's foist on people. I have a word for people who breeze in and say "Oh, we should do everything this way!", but this forum is KSS.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
Mark Wallace wrote:
It sounds like he's made a snap decision,
Well, maybe. But even if he did/does, I need to move forward, keep projects on track and start to eventually convert existing code. I'm in need of something reliable, that will Help do the conversion (I have no misgivings there's a 'fix' all tool out there) and keep my folks motivated to continue doing great work.
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So, my team (I’m the programming manger) has been developing Web/Windows based applications using, dare I say…VB.NET (go ahead, say what you want, we like it, it does what we need it to do, and our end users/customers absolutely love what we do for them, so let the jokes fly if you must… :) ). Anyway, we just got a new Director, and his first mandate is to stop all VB.NET development and start doing it in C# (something about his prior team not being able to do something in VB.NET, like a web service, so they just switched to C#). Good news is that my team can actually code in either, though we’re much better with VB.NET so any new development won’t be too difficult. BUT! Our existing code/applications, some of which took years to write and get to the point of where they are today won’t be so much fun. So, is there any reliable tool(s) out there, that folks have actual experience with, that we can use to convert or assist us in conversion? I see plenty in my Google search, but have no personal experience. My team is small, yet we produce a high quantity (as well as very high quality) of projects for our end users and have a running list to keep us busy for a very long time. We view that as a slow down to that process (yet we don’t have any problem switching as we see either one as a viable solution for our development efforts). Thanks in advance.
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Yep, which is why I'm asking if anyone has experience. I'm not ready to just dive in blindly and convert some very large projects from scratch, while our users are expecting new applications...
Ignore the telerik online converter. It's crap. If you have A LOT of code, it might be worth buying a commercial convesrion product. In the end (and going either way in the conversion) not everything is going to convert. I've had to go through this process a couple of times, and it's not too god-awful bad. I would assign one guy the task of initial conversion, and have him comment the code where he had to manually convert something so you can be aware of the "sticking points". After the converter guy can get an application to compile and run reasonably weel, turn the other devs loose on testing it, and you should end up with a decent conversion in minimal time.
.45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly
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"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997
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"The staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - J. Jystad, 2001 -
So, my team (I’m the programming manger) has been developing Web/Windows based applications using, dare I say…VB.NET (go ahead, say what you want, we like it, it does what we need it to do, and our end users/customers absolutely love what we do for them, so let the jokes fly if you must… :) ). Anyway, we just got a new Director, and his first mandate is to stop all VB.NET development and start doing it in C# (something about his prior team not being able to do something in VB.NET, like a web service, so they just switched to C#). Good news is that my team can actually code in either, though we’re much better with VB.NET so any new development won’t be too difficult. BUT! Our existing code/applications, some of which took years to write and get to the point of where they are today won’t be so much fun. So, is there any reliable tool(s) out there, that folks have actual experience with, that we can use to convert or assist us in conversion? I see plenty in my Google search, but have no personal experience. My team is small, yet we produce a high quantity (as well as very high quality) of projects for our end users and have a running list to keep us busy for a very long time. We view that as a slow down to that process (yet we don’t have any problem switching as we see either one as a viable solution for our development efforts). Thanks in advance.
The is a free add-on for (the free) Reflector that will allow you to convert entire assemblies between C# and VB.Net. The only problem I found was that it doesn't like to convert "on error goto" stuff in VB.Net to C# (ran into that problem when trying to convert from VB6 to VB.Net to C#). Oh, and comments are removed from the code. If you want to keep the comments, you can do a find/replace and replace:
' Some comment.
With:
dim commentVariable as string = "Some comment."
Then, when you're in C#, you can convert it back from a string to a comment. Make sure not to forget the triple apostrophe comments that are used in VB.Net.
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So, my team (I’m the programming manger) has been developing Web/Windows based applications using, dare I say…VB.NET (go ahead, say what you want, we like it, it does what we need it to do, and our end users/customers absolutely love what we do for them, so let the jokes fly if you must… :) ). Anyway, we just got a new Director, and his first mandate is to stop all VB.NET development and start doing it in C# (something about his prior team not being able to do something in VB.NET, like a web service, so they just switched to C#). Good news is that my team can actually code in either, though we’re much better with VB.NET so any new development won’t be too difficult. BUT! Our existing code/applications, some of which took years to write and get to the point of where they are today won’t be so much fun. So, is there any reliable tool(s) out there, that folks have actual experience with, that we can use to convert or assist us in conversion? I see plenty in my Google search, but have no personal experience. My team is small, yet we produce a high quantity (as well as very high quality) of projects for our end users and have a running list to keep us busy for a very long time. We view that as a slow down to that process (yet we don’t have any problem switching as we see either one as a viable solution for our development efforts). Thanks in advance.
I converted a couple of big applications over at my last job, the code was very poor and had been written in a hurry so to start with I wrote hundreds of unit tests as well as booked time with the testers so that I could be confident that my conversion would be bug free code. I then used sharp develop (company had no money so i forced to use a free tool) to convert the code over, (note I have not used that tool for anything older than .net 1.1). If you dont have unit tests in your code then it is a great excuss to get them in and upgrade to the latest framework. I will be honest I agree with your director though you should be moving away from vb.net as its functionlity wiht in .net is slowly reduced by microsoft. but also because though your current team is vb literate future staff wont be so much as vb is not that popular language by universitys and colleges (well atleast in the uk) using c# will allow you to confidently higher junior develeopers with java or c++ skill who will be able to hit the ground running more on the programming side as they will be use the syntax. But I knwo at this stage probably with 20 million other thing on the go this task is of low priority and is annoying, but you might consider it a good task to get new guys up to speed on your products as they convert it over and if you utilise your source control properly wiht automated testing then anyone can convert a section or write unit tests when they have a free minute. Good luck with it.
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Do you have to convert all existing code? Strike a deal with the guy to do all new stuff in C#. After all you can have solutions that include both VB.Net projects and C# projects.
Henry Minute Do not read medical books! You could die of a misprint. - Mark Twain Girl: (staring) "Why do you need an icy cucumber?" “I want to report a fraud. The government is lying to us all.” Why do programmers often confuse Halloween and Christmas? - Because 31 Oct = 25 Dec. Business Myths of the Geek #4 'What you think matters.'
An interesting move from your director if I may say so. What was his motive behind the switch? I (and my team) also code in VB.Net and this is still a very good language. There is really no difference in code apart from personal preference. This is also very much part of Microsofts software development language roadmap. The only downside I can see at this point in time is that c# tends to be the prefered so any code samples will be c# rather than VB. My view is that if you can do one or both then surly it does not matter what lanuage you code in as long as the client gets what they want. If someone were to ask me to change the code language they had better come up with a reasonable reason why! or am I missing something?
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Well, he actually hasn't started officially yet, just made a visit and we had brief conversation. But, the intention I'm seeing is that all NEW code first, followed by existing code later.
Zhat wrote:
the intention I'm seeing is that all NEW code first, followed by existing code later.
Such a waste of time and money unless there is a bonafide real world reason to change it that will benefit both customers and the product in general. If your development team are versatile enough to work in either language, then there seems like no good reason to rewrite existing code into another language other than for Mr.New Director to 'make his mark'.
---Guy H ;-)---
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So, my team (I’m the programming manger) has been developing Web/Windows based applications using, dare I say…VB.NET (go ahead, say what you want, we like it, it does what we need it to do, and our end users/customers absolutely love what we do for them, so let the jokes fly if you must… :) ). Anyway, we just got a new Director, and his first mandate is to stop all VB.NET development and start doing it in C# (something about his prior team not being able to do something in VB.NET, like a web service, so they just switched to C#). Good news is that my team can actually code in either, though we’re much better with VB.NET so any new development won’t be too difficult. BUT! Our existing code/applications, some of which took years to write and get to the point of where they are today won’t be so much fun. So, is there any reliable tool(s) out there, that folks have actual experience with, that we can use to convert or assist us in conversion? I see plenty in my Google search, but have no personal experience. My team is small, yet we produce a high quantity (as well as very high quality) of projects for our end users and have a running list to keep us busy for a very long time. We view that as a slow down to that process (yet we don’t have any problem switching as we see either one as a viable solution for our development efforts). Thanks in advance.
Never used it but been told about SharpDevelop's inbuilt Converter http://www.icsharpcode.net/OpenSource/SD/Features.aspx[^] (various to various) or online: http://codeconverter.sharpdevelop.net/[^]
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So, my team (I’m the programming manger) has been developing Web/Windows based applications using, dare I say…VB.NET (go ahead, say what you want, we like it, it does what we need it to do, and our end users/customers absolutely love what we do for them, so let the jokes fly if you must… :) ). Anyway, we just got a new Director, and his first mandate is to stop all VB.NET development and start doing it in C# (something about his prior team not being able to do something in VB.NET, like a web service, so they just switched to C#). Good news is that my team can actually code in either, though we’re much better with VB.NET so any new development won’t be too difficult. BUT! Our existing code/applications, some of which took years to write and get to the point of where they are today won’t be so much fun. So, is there any reliable tool(s) out there, that folks have actual experience with, that we can use to convert or assist us in conversion? I see plenty in my Google search, but have no personal experience. My team is small, yet we produce a high quantity (as well as very high quality) of projects for our end users and have a running list to keep us busy for a very long time. We view that as a slow down to that process (yet we don’t have any problem switching as we see either one as a viable solution for our development efforts). Thanks in advance.
I have been programming for over 50 years in 13 different programming languages and will always choose the language based on what are the requirements of the application. If it’s mathematical number crunching, then it’s FORTRAN. If it requires lots of bit level manipulations then use assembler, otherwise use what is the fastest and most stable and what the shop is most comfortable is with. Personally I use VB when I can. I feel it is very fast, efficient and stable. I think that if he insists on switching languages then maintain old applications in their current language(s), develop new in C#. I have managed large programming shops and his rule sucks. By the way; how long has he been out of college?:~
The Old Guy
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So, my team (I’m the programming manger) has been developing Web/Windows based applications using, dare I say…VB.NET (go ahead, say what you want, we like it, it does what we need it to do, and our end users/customers absolutely love what we do for them, so let the jokes fly if you must… :) ). Anyway, we just got a new Director, and his first mandate is to stop all VB.NET development and start doing it in C# (something about his prior team not being able to do something in VB.NET, like a web service, so they just switched to C#). Good news is that my team can actually code in either, though we’re much better with VB.NET so any new development won’t be too difficult. BUT! Our existing code/applications, some of which took years to write and get to the point of where they are today won’t be so much fun. So, is there any reliable tool(s) out there, that folks have actual experience with, that we can use to convert or assist us in conversion? I see plenty in my Google search, but have no personal experience. My team is small, yet we produce a high quantity (as well as very high quality) of projects for our end users and have a running list to keep us busy for a very long time. We view that as a slow down to that process (yet we don’t have any problem switching as we see either one as a viable solution for our development efforts). Thanks in advance.
It's generally not a matter of if it can be done, in code all things are possible. Rather it is should it be, is it cost effective? Migrating code always introduces errors, even the most experienced programmer can introduce unintended consequences. Depending on the nature of the software application (I work in medical) will it require a complete review process? (..and lot's of time & money) If it does the same thing with little or no added benefit, the answer is NO! The risk does not warrant change for the sake of change, “If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it”
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Ignore the telerik online converter. It's crap. If you have A LOT of code, it might be worth buying a commercial convesrion product. In the end (and going either way in the conversion) not everything is going to convert. I've had to go through this process a couple of times, and it's not too god-awful bad. I would assign one guy the task of initial conversion, and have him comment the code where he had to manually convert something so you can be aware of the "sticking points". After the converter guy can get an application to compile and run reasonably weel, turn the other devs loose on testing it, and you should end up with a decent conversion in minimal time.
.45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly
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"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997
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"The staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - J. Jystad, 2001Thanks, yes I saw that online, tried some simple code conversions, but couldn't say how well it might perform until I run some heavy code through it. But there are several other converters out there, both free and for purchase. We'll just keep testing as best we can until a formal decision has been made to actually convert our existing code. Hopefully he'll stay focused on new code and leave conversion alone.
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Zhat wrote:
the intention I'm seeing is that all NEW code first, followed by existing code later.
Such a waste of time and money unless there is a bonafide real world reason to change it that will benefit both customers and the product in general. If your development team are versatile enough to work in either language, then there seems like no good reason to rewrite existing code into another language other than for Mr.New Director to 'make his mark'.
---Guy H ;-)---
Well, he has his reasons of course, but we're not done with our discussion either (he and I). We're not actually doing anything yet, just researching. I'll spend some more time with him discussing this further, as I don't see a valid reason for converting existing apps...New code is different though, but it'll be part of my discusion.
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An interesting move from your director if I may say so. What was his motive behind the switch? I (and my team) also code in VB.Net and this is still a very good language. There is really no difference in code apart from personal preference. This is also very much part of Microsofts software development language roadmap. The only downside I can see at this point in time is that c# tends to be the prefered so any code samples will be c# rather than VB. My view is that if you can do one or both then surly it does not matter what lanuage you code in as long as the client gets what they want. If someone were to ask me to change the code language they had better come up with a reasonable reason why! or am I missing something?
db7uk wrote:
An interesting move from your director if I may say so. What was his motive behind the switch?
Well, apparently his team found "something" that they weren't able to do in VB.NET, so they tried it in C# and got it to work...therefore logic dictates that C# trumps VB.NET as an overall solution to all problems (I heartedly disagree with this thought, but hey I've yet to see anything that can be done in C# that can't be done in VB.NET, but there could be those cases).
db7uk wrote:
If someone were to ask me to change the code language they had better come up with a reasonable reason why! or am I missing something?
First off, Directors don't need reasons, they are the reason, but I know this guy and he's been with our bigger organization for well over 25 years, so he must have good reason. But, the discussion isn't finished by any means. Good thing about being a manager and coder is that I can basically provide the up/down side to doing this, provide good examples and suggestions (from all you kind folks) as to why we should attempt conversion and then see what happens. At the end of the day, regardless of the decision, we'll do what we're tasked to do, amke it work for our end users and drink a cold beer after...it's what we do best (not just the beer part).
modified on Friday, June 25, 2010 10:57 AM
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The is a free add-on for (the free) Reflector that will allow you to convert entire assemblies between C# and VB.Net. The only problem I found was that it doesn't like to convert "on error goto" stuff in VB.Net to C# (ran into that problem when trying to convert from VB6 to VB.Net to C#). Oh, and comments are removed from the code. If you want to keep the comments, you can do a find/replace and replace:
' Some comment.
With:
dim commentVariable as string = "Some comment."
Then, when you're in C#, you can convert it back from a string to a comment. Make sure not to forget the triple apostrophe comments that are used in VB.Net.
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I converted a couple of big applications over at my last job, the code was very poor and had been written in a hurry so to start with I wrote hundreds of unit tests as well as booked time with the testers so that I could be confident that my conversion would be bug free code. I then used sharp develop (company had no money so i forced to use a free tool) to convert the code over, (note I have not used that tool for anything older than .net 1.1). If you dont have unit tests in your code then it is a great excuss to get them in and upgrade to the latest framework. I will be honest I agree with your director though you should be moving away from vb.net as its functionlity wiht in .net is slowly reduced by microsoft. but also because though your current team is vb literate future staff wont be so much as vb is not that popular language by universitys and colleges (well atleast in the uk) using c# will allow you to confidently higher junior develeopers with java or c++ skill who will be able to hit the ground running more on the programming side as they will be use the syntax. But I knwo at this stage probably with 20 million other thing on the go this task is of low priority and is annoying, but you might consider it a good task to get new guys up to speed on your products as they convert it over and if you utilise your source control properly wiht automated testing then anyone can convert a section or write unit tests when they have a free minute. Good luck with it.
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Never used it but been told about SharpDevelop's inbuilt Converter http://www.icsharpcode.net/OpenSource/SD/Features.aspx[^] (various to various) or online: http://codeconverter.sharpdevelop.net/[^]
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I have been programming for over 50 years in 13 different programming languages and will always choose the language based on what are the requirements of the application. If it’s mathematical number crunching, then it’s FORTRAN. If it requires lots of bit level manipulations then use assembler, otherwise use what is the fastest and most stable and what the shop is most comfortable is with. Personally I use VB when I can. I feel it is very fast, efficient and stable. I think that if he insists on switching languages then maintain old applications in their current language(s), develop new in C#. I have managed large programming shops and his rule sucks. By the way; how long has he been out of college?:~
The Old Guy
Well, I've also been coding for many years and in several different languages. On every job I went to, there was the "favorite" langauge of choice, I didn't question it, I learned and embraced it and made it work the best I could, which the vast majority of the time worked well. Now, I've been here 3.5 years, we've been using VB.NET ever since it first came out and the team started doing development in the .NET framework. We're very comfortable with it, and it works for everything we've attempted. Now, our new director isn't actually new to the company, as we are part of a larger group with several other companies doing very similar things that we do, just in different geographic locations. He's been with our larger group for over 25 years, which is when he graduated from college if I understand correctly. With that said, there's no "final" decision. We spoke about it, he said that's what he wants to do, but we're not through with the descussion by any means. It's my job to provide good/bad reasons for doing new code in C# as well as trying to convert existing VB.NET code to C# and the pitfalls that can (and will) occur. It's input from you guys that give me good point of reasons when we do continue the discussion early next week.
modified on Friday, June 25, 2010 11:02 AM