Smacking to be outlawed ???
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Ray Cassick wrote: They rememebr it (even if you think they don't). I do. I am sorry that you were smacked out of anger, or in an otherwise inappropriate manner, and that it has clouded your judgement. No kids, right ? Either that, or they will end up in prison. I was smacked out of anger a lot, too, but that does not mean that I have some airy-fairy notion of parenting that has no basis in reality. It means that I know the difference between 'smacking' and 'beating'. It disturbs me when this is discussed how many people use the terms interchangably. Ray Cassick wrote: It's not just the fact that you say NO, it's how you say it... Ray Cassick wrote: I just do not belive in hitting children at all. Get back to me when you have kids, and if you still think that there is some magic intonation in your voice that makes a child obey you right off without any guidance, then get back to me when they are in jail. Seriously, I am sick of bleeding heart crap from people who have no idea. I am truly sorry that you've had a bad experience, but this jump from one extreme to another is what is killing society as a whole. Reasonable use of physical punishment in a consistent manner is part of teaching a child how to turn into a socially responsbile adult. 'Reasoning' with a two year old does not work, saying 'no' is meaningless if all you do when they ignore you is say 'no' again. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002 Hey, at least Logo had, at it's inception, a mechanical turtle. VB has always lacked even that... - Shog9 04-09-2002 During last 10 years, with invention of VB and similar programming environments, every ill-educated moron became able to develop software. - Alex E. - 12-Sept-2002
Christian Graus wrote: Get back to me when you have kids Christian Graus wrote: 'Reasoning' with a two year old does not work, saying 'no' is meaningless if all you do when they ignore you is say 'no' again. I have a child. Maybe I am lucky, but we are good freinds, and have a terrific relationship. Mpt to say that he stretches his wings a bit now and then and tries to assert himself. I deal with it in a non-violent manner. Do I hit? NO. Have I been known to yell LOUDLY? YES. There is always an alternative when it comes to raising a hand to a child. Period.
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For years the laws have grown more limiting on parents here, and society has declined severely because of it. You can't even spank a child - not beat, there's a huge difference - without running the risk of having your children taken from you. One phone call from a neighbor, or even the child, is enough to have Child Protective Services crash into your house without a warrant, take your children, prevent you from visiting them, have you arrested without investigation or proof, and subject you to a prolonged and expensive legal process to prove that you are a decent enough person to be allowed to see your children again in your lifetime. The children know this, and actively threaten to call anytime they disagree with anything a parent attempts to enforce. Is it any wonder that they grow up with no sense of personal responsibility or respect for law? "When in danger, fear, or doubt, run in circles, scream and shout!" - Lorelei and Lapis Lazuli Long
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Ray Cassick wrote: They rememebr it (even if you think they don't). I do. I am sorry that you were smacked out of anger, or in an otherwise inappropriate manner, and that it has clouded your judgement. No kids, right ? Either that, or they will end up in prison. I was smacked out of anger a lot, too, but that does not mean that I have some airy-fairy notion of parenting that has no basis in reality. It means that I know the difference between 'smacking' and 'beating'. It disturbs me when this is discussed how many people use the terms interchangably. Ray Cassick wrote: It's not just the fact that you say NO, it's how you say it... Ray Cassick wrote: I just do not belive in hitting children at all. Get back to me when you have kids, and if you still think that there is some magic intonation in your voice that makes a child obey you right off without any guidance, then get back to me when they are in jail. Seriously, I am sick of bleeding heart crap from people who have no idea. I am truly sorry that you've had a bad experience, but this jump from one extreme to another is what is killing society as a whole. Reasonable use of physical punishment in a consistent manner is part of teaching a child how to turn into a socially responsbile adult. 'Reasoning' with a two year old does not work, saying 'no' is meaningless if all you do when they ignore you is say 'no' again. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002 Hey, at least Logo had, at it's inception, a mechanical turtle. VB has always lacked even that... - Shog9 04-09-2002 During last 10 years, with invention of VB and similar programming environments, every ill-educated moron became able to develop software. - Alex E. - 12-Sept-2002
Christian Graus wrote: I just do not belive in hitting children at all. Get back to me when you have kids, and if you still think that there is some magic intonation in your voice that makes a child obey you right off without any guidance, then get back to me when they are in jail. This just doesn't follow: you don't smack kids and they go off the rails? What nonsense. I wasn't smacked as a child, and I don't smack my children either. I'm not a jailbird or a junkie, and I expect the statistics would show that countries where smacking has been suppressed have not sunk into lawlessness. I respected my parents without the need for it. No I don't have perfect children (thank goodness!) but there are far more effective ways to discipline *my* children. Threatening to withdraw his gameboy is pretty much the ultimate threat... Incidentally, I am not arguing that smacking should be criminalised, but I very much resent the fact that you are arguing that society would be better off if we all did it! Debbie
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The paper is running a story today to say that the gubberment is going to outlaw all smacking of children by parents, or anyone else. They claim the current law is not precise enough, so they want a blanket ban, and cite cases like a child being forced to smoke a cigarette, and then eat the butt, and a child being repeatedly prodded with an electric cattle prod. HELLO ??!?!?!??!?!!!! First of all if the current law is not sufficient to prosecute these people, then it was drafted by a moron, and secondly, people who treat their kids like that are not rational human beings and unlikely to change just because it's the law. The cattle prod tells you what locations such people tend to live in, where their children are not that likely to have contact with people able to recognise and deal with the problem. How does removing another framework of discipline for our young help them in any way ? Is this the case in other countries ? The police can pucker up and kiss my fat behind if they think I will stop guiding my children in how to grow into responsible adults on the basis of some law passed by someone who obviously has never had children ( and in this state, is probably gay ). Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002 Hey, at least Logo had, at it's inception, a mechanical turtle. VB has always lacked even that... - Shog9 04-09-2002 During last 10 years, with invention of VB and similar programming environments, every ill-educated moron became able to develop software. - Alex E. - 12-Sept-2002
Christian Graus wrote: and in this state, is probably gay Eh ? Would you like to meet my teddy bear ?
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Christian Graus wrote: I just do not belive in hitting children at all. Get back to me when you have kids, and if you still think that there is some magic intonation in your voice that makes a child obey you right off without any guidance, then get back to me when they are in jail. This just doesn't follow: you don't smack kids and they go off the rails? What nonsense. I wasn't smacked as a child, and I don't smack my children either. I'm not a jailbird or a junkie, and I expect the statistics would show that countries where smacking has been suppressed have not sunk into lawlessness. I respected my parents without the need for it. No I don't have perfect children (thank goodness!) but there are far more effective ways to discipline *my* children. Threatening to withdraw his gameboy is pretty much the ultimate threat... Incidentally, I am not arguing that smacking should be criminalised, but I very much resent the fact that you are arguing that society would be better off if we all did it! Debbie
My 18 month old doesn't have a gameboy. So sometimes you have to spank.
Jason Henderson
start page ; articles henderson is coming henderson is an opponent's worst nightmare * googlism * -
The paper is running a story today to say that the gubberment is going to outlaw all smacking of children by parents, or anyone else. They claim the current law is not precise enough, so they want a blanket ban, and cite cases like a child being forced to smoke a cigarette, and then eat the butt, and a child being repeatedly prodded with an electric cattle prod. HELLO ??!?!?!??!?!!!! First of all if the current law is not sufficient to prosecute these people, then it was drafted by a moron, and secondly, people who treat their kids like that are not rational human beings and unlikely to change just because it's the law. The cattle prod tells you what locations such people tend to live in, where their children are not that likely to have contact with people able to recognise and deal with the problem. How does removing another framework of discipline for our young help them in any way ? Is this the case in other countries ? The police can pucker up and kiss my fat behind if they think I will stop guiding my children in how to grow into responsible adults on the basis of some law passed by someone who obviously has never had children ( and in this state, is probably gay ). Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002 Hey, at least Logo had, at it's inception, a mechanical turtle. VB has always lacked even that... - Shog9 04-09-2002 During last 10 years, with invention of VB and similar programming environments, every ill-educated moron became able to develop software. - Alex E. - 12-Sept-2002
And how is this a government function? Christ, like DSS doesn't f**k up enough already. The real problem is we don't allow judges to judge anymore. For some stupid-ass reason lawmakers started to think they could write an exact punishment for every situation, then having failed at that, they simply decide to ban in sweeping reforms like this. It preposterous and unproductive. F*&^ing liberals!!!!:mad: BW "I'm coming with you! I got you fired, it's the least I can do. Well, the least I could do is absolutely nothing, but I'll go you one better and come along!" - Homer J. Simpson
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My 18 month old doesn't have a gameboy. So sometimes you have to spank.
Jason Henderson
start page ; articles henderson is coming henderson is an opponent's worst nightmare * googlism * -
It would be nice to know which country's laws people were referring to in this discussion! Debbie
Debs wrote: It would be nice to know which country's laws people were referring to in this discussion! The US, in my case. For the others, click on the poster's icon to check their bios - country of origin is included there.:) "When in danger, fear, or doubt, run in circles, scream and shout!" - Lorelei and Lapis Lazuli Long
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Christian Graus wrote: and in this state, is probably gay Eh ? Would you like to meet my teddy bear ?
I think what Christian was implying was, given the demographics of the political district in which he lives, there's a good chance the man is homosexual... Shog9 ------
The Army's on Ecstasy, so they say - I read all about it in USA Today. They stepped up urine testing to make it go away, 'cause it's hard to kill the enemy on ol' MDMA...- Oysterhead
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I usually find a "time-out" works better than anything else. Anna :rose: "Be yourself - not what others think you should be"
- Marcia GraeschHe doesn't understand what a timeout is either. Raising my voice seems to work but only sometimes.
Jason Henderson
start page ; articles henderson is coming henderson is an opponent's worst nightmare * googlism * -
KaЯl wrote: Why ? Everybody has been a child before, we all know the problem seen from the other point of view No, you don't. You remember not liking being punished. I wrote my mother a letter, telling her why I thought she was a terrible parent. I so wish I had waited until I had kids before presuming to talk about what is good and bad. I still think she was a bad parent, but I no longer expect parents to have all the answers, because I know what it's like to be one. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002 Hey, at least Logo had, at it's inception, a mechanical turtle. VB has always lacked even that... - Shog9 04-09-2002 During last 10 years, with invention of VB and similar programming environments, every ill-educated moron became able to develop software. - Alex E. - 12-Sept-2002
My mother, has actually asked me where she went wrong. Sounds harsh, maybe, but I understood the specific points she was refering to. I told her what's the difference. It's way past changing, and things are good the way they are now anyway. I say this, only because, even though I don't have children, I understand that people who have children do not have some magical ability given them during pregnancy that gives them all wisdom and knowledge regarding proper parenting skills. People make mistakes, but most parents do the best they know how to, and generally do an incredible job. BW "I'm coming with you! I got you fired, it's the least I can do. Well, the least I could do is absolutely nothing, but I'll go you one better and come along!" - Homer J. Simpson
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Christian Graus wrote: I just do not belive in hitting children at all. Get back to me when you have kids, and if you still think that there is some magic intonation in your voice that makes a child obey you right off without any guidance, then get back to me when they are in jail. This just doesn't follow: you don't smack kids and they go off the rails? What nonsense. I wasn't smacked as a child, and I don't smack my children either. I'm not a jailbird or a junkie, and I expect the statistics would show that countries where smacking has been suppressed have not sunk into lawlessness. I respected my parents without the need for it. No I don't have perfect children (thank goodness!) but there are far more effective ways to discipline *my* children. Threatening to withdraw his gameboy is pretty much the ultimate threat... Incidentally, I am not arguing that smacking should be criminalised, but I very much resent the fact that you are arguing that society would be better off if we all did it! Debbie
Spanking has its place as a means to get a childs attention if all else fails. If done, it should be one smack, swift, not very hard, but enough to get them to listen to you. Then you can continue to discilpine. It should also not be used very often, as it an exclamation saying "Hey!! Kid! I'm telling you stop, and you will listen". I have no children, so maybe I'm talking trash, but it seems reasonable, and worked for me as a child. BW "I'm coming with you! I got you fired, it's the least I can do. Well, the least I could do is absolutely nothing, but I'll go you one better and come along!" - Homer J. Simpson
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He doesn't understand what a timeout is either. Raising my voice seems to work but only sometimes.
Jason Henderson
start page ; articles henderson is coming henderson is an opponent's worst nightmare * googlism *Jason Henderson wrote: He doesn't understand what a timeout is either. Raising my voice seems to work but only sometimes. That's a shame. I hate it when I can't find any other way to make them listen and have to resort to smacking them. :(( Aaron (he was 2 in July) will stand in the corner if told he's to have a timeout. Ciaran (4 last July) will scream and pound on the door but I just ignore him until he calms down. Once he does, I'll explain to him why he was given a timeout and give him a hug to show him it doesn't change how I feel about him. Anna :rose: "Be yourself - not what others think you should be"
- Marcia Graesch -
My 18 month old doesn't have a gameboy. So sometimes you have to spank.
Jason Henderson
start page ; articles henderson is coming henderson is an opponent's worst nightmare * googlism * -
Christian Graus wrote: and in this state, is probably gay Eh ? Would you like to meet my teddy bear ?
I have nothing against gay women per se, but having said that, our public service is overrun by man hating, militant lesbians. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002 Hey, at least Logo had, at it's inception, a mechanical turtle. VB has always lacked even that... - Shog9 04-09-2002 During last 10 years, with invention of VB and similar programming environments, every ill-educated moron became able to develop software. - Alex E. - 12-Sept-2002
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Christian Graus wrote: I just do not belive in hitting children at all. Get back to me when you have kids, and if you still think that there is some magic intonation in your voice that makes a child obey you right off without any guidance, then get back to me when they are in jail. This just doesn't follow: you don't smack kids and they go off the rails? What nonsense. I wasn't smacked as a child, and I don't smack my children either. I'm not a jailbird or a junkie, and I expect the statistics would show that countries where smacking has been suppressed have not sunk into lawlessness. I respected my parents without the need for it. No I don't have perfect children (thank goodness!) but there are far more effective ways to discipline *my* children. Threatening to withdraw his gameboy is pretty much the ultimate threat... Incidentally, I am not arguing that smacking should be criminalised, but I very much resent the fact that you are arguing that society would be better off if we all did it! Debbie
Debs wrote: This just doesn't follow: you don't smack kids and they go off the rails? No, if you don't discipline a child, then they are going to have no guidance as to what is right and wrong, and it's a toss of the dice if they end up in jail or not. Debs wrote: Threatening to withdraw his gameboy is pretty much the ultimate threat... That worked when he was 2, did it ? Debs wrote: but I very much resent the fact that you are arguing that society would be better off if we all did it! Fine - if both you and your children have been able to respond to other forms of discipline, then I'm all for it. But the legal moves afoot here in Tasmania tend to promote 'reasoning' with your child. I've been watching 'The Human Body', an excellent BBC series, and it states that the human brain becomes capable of empathy at about 6. There is certainly no way when my two year old is DESTROYING things that I can expect to discuss with him why this is a bad thing. Debs wrote: I respected my parents without the need for it. If you're claiming you were born respecting your parents authority so they never had to punish you, you did what they said of your own volition when you always had to option to draw on the walls, stay up late and throw rocks at the windows, then you were a miracle baby. Could you make some for the rest of us ? Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002 Hey, at least Logo had, at it's inception, a mechanical turtle. VB has always lacked even that... - Shog9 04-09-2002 During last 10 years, with invention of VB and similar programming environments, every ill-educated moron became able to develop software. - Alex E. - 12-Sept-2002
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Spanking has its place as a means to get a childs attention if all else fails. If done, it should be one smack, swift, not very hard, but enough to get them to listen to you. Then you can continue to discilpine. It should also not be used very often, as it an exclamation saying "Hey!! Kid! I'm telling you stop, and you will listen". I have no children, so maybe I'm talking trash, but it seems reasonable, and worked for me as a child. BW "I'm coming with you! I got you fired, it's the least I can do. Well, the least I could do is absolutely nothing, but I'll go you one better and come along!" - Homer J. Simpson
My goodness - someone with no kids who is making a sensible statement in this thread !!! I agree - smacking should be one only, controlled, and a mechanism for re-enforcement of discussion of what is right and wrong. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002 Hey, at least Logo had, at it's inception, a mechanical turtle. VB has always lacked even that... - Shog9 04-09-2002 During last 10 years, with invention of VB and similar programming environments, every ill-educated moron became able to develop software. - Alex E. - 12-Sept-2002
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Christian Graus wrote: Get back to me when you have kids Christian Graus wrote: 'Reasoning' with a two year old does not work, saying 'no' is meaningless if all you do when they ignore you is say 'no' again. I have a child. Maybe I am lucky, but we are good freinds, and have a terrific relationship. Mpt to say that he stretches his wings a bit now and then and tries to assert himself. I deal with it in a non-violent manner. Do I hit? NO. Have I been known to yell LOUDLY? YES. There is always an alternative when it comes to raising a hand to a child. Period.
Ray Cassick wrote: I have a child. Maybe I am lucky, but we are good freinds, and have a terrific relationship. You're not lucky, you've obviously worked at it. It doesn't happen any other way. To restate - I have two. My six year old daughter gets a smack from time to time, and my two year old son rarely does. The reason is that he does not respond to being smacked, he is just as upset by being told 'no' ( which didn't phase Hannah at all ) and either way tends to keep doing wrong until he is sent to his room. I don't smack because I like to, if it does not work in disciplining him, there is no point, so he gets sent to his room. The point is that I have an amazing relationship with Hannah, Calvin tends to prefer his mother. So it does not follow that physical discipline will capsise a relationship with a child. Ray Cassick wrote: Mpt to say that he stretches his wings a bit now and then and tries to assert himself. I bet he does :-) Ray Cassick wrote: Have I been known to yell LOUDLY? YES. To be honest, yelling loud shows that you have lost control, a controlled smack to me is more consistent with the goal of teaching the child, rather than just losing your temper and being free to because you're the biggest. Ray Cassick wrote: There is always an alternative when it comes to raising a hand to a child. You'll note that I am not stupid enough to claim that all children need to be smacked, I am just saying that it is an effective form of discipline for some children and should not be banned by law. I've seen the usual alternative, it's brats running around the supermarket, playing on the roads, spitting on their teachers and generally growing up with the mistaken idea that they can do what they want. I presume this is not what you mean by 'spreading his wings', but one mistake too many parents make is to not be able to see their child through other peoples eyes. 'Look how advanced he is, he can flick matchs and he's only three', sort of thing. If you want to yell your guts out, do so. My mother did the same and while it taught me to do what she wanted, it did not teach me to respect her. I say again that every child is different, but my 6 year old has had her share of smacks and the end result is that she knows when I say to do something I mean it, I mean it for her own benefit, and she loves me to bits. Christian No offense, but I don't really wan
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Why are you so defensive and touchy? You post something here and ask about how things are in different countries.. then you critise. When I used the word "beat", I meant "beat". When I said, "smack".. I meant "smack". In this country, people still "beat" children! Why can't I enter this debate if I don't have children? You are not the only man with a child! I have cousins, friend's children who look up to me... I've been a child! You are not very open-minded.
Pett wrote: When I used the word "beat", I meant "beat". When I said, "smack".. I meant "smack". I was commenting about a number of past discussions where people used the terms interchangably. I said smack, they said beat. Pett wrote: In this country, people still "beat" children! Then someone should beat the crap out of them. Pett wrote: Why can't I enter this debate if I don't have children? You can, but only if you admit ignorance to begin with. Pett wrote: You are not the only man with a child! That's good news, otherwise who would she marry ? Pett wrote: I have cousins, friend's children who look up to me... I've been a child! In none of those cases were you responsible for helping a young life evolve into a human being capable of participating in society. Pett wrote: You are not very open-minded. You've only just noticed ? Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002 Hey, at least Logo had, at it's inception, a mechanical turtle. VB has always lacked even that... - Shog9 04-09-2002 During last 10 years, with invention of VB and similar programming environments, every ill-educated moron became able to develop software. - Alex E. - 12-Sept-2002
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Debs wrote: This just doesn't follow: you don't smack kids and they go off the rails? No, if you don't discipline a child, then they are going to have no guidance as to what is right and wrong, and it's a toss of the dice if they end up in jail or not. Debs wrote: Threatening to withdraw his gameboy is pretty much the ultimate threat... That worked when he was 2, did it ? Debs wrote: but I very much resent the fact that you are arguing that society would be better off if we all did it! Fine - if both you and your children have been able to respond to other forms of discipline, then I'm all for it. But the legal moves afoot here in Tasmania tend to promote 'reasoning' with your child. I've been watching 'The Human Body', an excellent BBC series, and it states that the human brain becomes capable of empathy at about 6. There is certainly no way when my two year old is DESTROYING things that I can expect to discuss with him why this is a bad thing. Debs wrote: I respected my parents without the need for it. If you're claiming you were born respecting your parents authority so they never had to punish you, you did what they said of your own volition when you always had to option to draw on the walls, stay up late and throw rocks at the windows, then you were a miracle baby. Could you make some for the rest of us ? Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002 Hey, at least Logo had, at it's inception, a mechanical turtle. VB has always lacked even that... - Shog9 04-09-2002 During last 10 years, with invention of VB and similar programming environments, every ill-educated moron became able to develop software. - Alex E. - 12-Sept-2002
Christian Graus wrote: No, if you don't discipline a child, then they are going to have no guidance as to what is right and wrong, and it's a toss of the dice if they end up in jail or not. Originally, you were equating discipline inextricably with smacking in your quote. It doesn't always, and, indeed you yourself say as much elsewhere. Christian Graus wrote: That worked when he was 2, did it ? No of course it didn't. I didn't mean it a literal advice for all parents everywhere to use for all children at all ages. It was a tongue-in-cheek comment to imply I had more ways of disciplining my children than hitting them. I wouldn't be so arrogant as to imply that my way of parenting is ideal for everyone. It works for me, and I resent anyone else telling me how I should do it. Your original rant was against the powers-that-be trying to enforce their set of rules on you, yet you appear to be trying to tell me that your way of parenting is better than mine? It isn't not for *my* kids, but I'm not trying to tell you that my way would work better than yours. Christian Graus wrote: If you're claiming you were born respecting your parents authority so they never had to punish you, you did what they said of your own volition when you always had to option to draw on the walls, stay up late and throw rocks at the windows, then you were a miracle baby. Could you make some for the rest of us ? Excuse me, but where exactly did I say I had no punishments, no discipline? Again, you are misinterpreting my comment that I was not hit as a child to mean I had no discipline. The two are not inextricably linked, you know? Debbie