Programmers as Psychologists
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The post about "'Virtual Human' Milo" reminded me of this. I've never brought this up in a forum of programmers so I'd be interested in what this talented group of people has to say: I think that in 50 years, computers (at least those that are not in the most basic appliances) will be so sophisticated that programmers will be more like Psychologists* than today's programmers. Imagine the scene from the movie 2010 where the computer programmer is talking to SAL, the earth-bound copy HAL. (It is not, however, my belief that we will finally be a paperless society by that time.) *Psychiatrists? I've never been able to understand the difference...
Before .NET 4.0, object Universe = NULL;
On the actual topic... I don't think that will be the case unless and until the basic physical structure of computers changes dramatically. If you look at a brain, it contains all sorts of analogue connections of various strengths and all sorts of unpredictability. While you COULD make a computer that way, it would be lousy at the sorts of tasks we generally want computers to do.
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The post about "'Virtual Human' Milo" reminded me of this. I've never brought this up in a forum of programmers so I'd be interested in what this talented group of people has to say: I think that in 50 years, computers (at least those that are not in the most basic appliances) will be so sophisticated that programmers will be more like Psychologists* than today's programmers. Imagine the scene from the movie 2010 where the computer programmer is talking to SAL, the earth-bound copy HAL. (It is not, however, my belief that we will finally be a paperless society by that time.) *Psychiatrists? I've never been able to understand the difference...
Before .NET 4.0, object Universe = NULL;
Hired Mind wrote:
programmers will be more like Psychologists
You know someone had to....[^]
Hired Mind wrote:
*Psychiatrists? I've never been able to understand the difference...
Actually there is a difference and it is more than drugs. Psychiatrists treat the mental illness. First they assess all the mental illnesses you have, then attempt to explain the origin of such mental illnesses, either physical (give 'em drugs) or sociological (treat them with psychotherapy for years in attempt to understand just how deep the psychosis goes and maybe find a solution in the process). Often times it is joked, and it is not too far from the truth for some doctors, that many psychiatrists have no interest in curing anyone, but rather studying in depth all the details of the conditions exhibited by the patient to understand all the nuances in every situation encountered. From the programmer stand-point, it would be akin to studying a bug and documenting it's behavior in every conceivable situation, even setting up new situations under which to study the bug in unexpected and never encountered situations, discovering which programmer put the bug in there, how the bug came to be there, what was intended instead of the bug, what was there before the bug, what could be there without the bug... but never actually fixing the bug. :-D in other words... a consultant. :laugh: The psychologists treat the behavior model. The goal is to shape the person's behavior in order to be able to function in society as a normal human being. Because they treat behavior problems, they are not doctors, they don't give drugs. Their goal is to shape the behavior until functional equilibrium with society is established.
_________________________ John Andrew Holmes "It is well to remember that the entire universe, with one trifling exception, is composed of others." Shhhhh.... I am not really here. I am a figment of your imagination.... I am still in my cave so this must be an illusion....
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Hired Mind wrote:
programmers will be more like Psychologists
You know someone had to....[^]
Hired Mind wrote:
*Psychiatrists? I've never been able to understand the difference...
Actually there is a difference and it is more than drugs. Psychiatrists treat the mental illness. First they assess all the mental illnesses you have, then attempt to explain the origin of such mental illnesses, either physical (give 'em drugs) or sociological (treat them with psychotherapy for years in attempt to understand just how deep the psychosis goes and maybe find a solution in the process). Often times it is joked, and it is not too far from the truth for some doctors, that many psychiatrists have no interest in curing anyone, but rather studying in depth all the details of the conditions exhibited by the patient to understand all the nuances in every situation encountered. From the programmer stand-point, it would be akin to studying a bug and documenting it's behavior in every conceivable situation, even setting up new situations under which to study the bug in unexpected and never encountered situations, discovering which programmer put the bug in there, how the bug came to be there, what was intended instead of the bug, what was there before the bug, what could be there without the bug... but never actually fixing the bug. :-D in other words... a consultant. :laugh: The psychologists treat the behavior model. The goal is to shape the person's behavior in order to be able to function in society as a normal human being. Because they treat behavior problems, they are not doctors, they don't give drugs. Their goal is to shape the behavior until functional equilibrium with society is established.
_________________________ John Andrew Holmes "It is well to remember that the entire universe, with one trifling exception, is composed of others." Shhhhh.... I am not really here. I am a figment of your imagination.... I am still in my cave so this must be an illusion....
El Corazon wrote:
Hired Mind wrote: programmers will be more like Psychologists You know someone had to....[]
ELIZA is actually the reason I became a programmer. I was about 10 or 12 when I got put into an advanced program in school that let us visit local colleges computer/biology/other labs. We had the opportunity to interact with ELIZA in the computer lab, and I was enthralled. We also had the opportunity to run a program (with input on punched-cards, no less) that printed out our names in huge letters on multiple sheets of paper. Sounds silly today but for a young-geek, this was Nirvana.
Before .NET 4.0, object Universe = NULL;
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On the actual topic... I don't think that will be the case unless and until the basic physical structure of computers changes dramatically. If you look at a brain, it contains all sorts of analogue connections of various strengths and all sorts of unpredictability. While you COULD make a computer that way, it would be lousy at the sorts of tasks we generally want computers to do.
I'm reading Neal Asher's books right now and he has an interesting thought on that. In the books, AIs are so powerful that they fully emulate human mind, and even surpass humans in creative/strategic thinking. They can "spawn off sub-minds" to perform the kind of iterative or logically simple tasks that we code by hand today - essentially becoming programmers themselves. In other words, if you had a true AI that could understand an iterative/logical/procedural task, and had "non-neural" hardware or access to it, the AI could conceivably write the programs necessary to accomplish the task.
Before .NET 4.0, object Universe = NULL;
-
The post about "'Virtual Human' Milo" reminded me of this. I've never brought this up in a forum of programmers so I'd be interested in what this talented group of people has to say: I think that in 50 years, computers (at least those that are not in the most basic appliances) will be so sophisticated that programmers will be more like Psychologists* than today's programmers. Imagine the scene from the movie 2010 where the computer programmer is talking to SAL, the earth-bound copy HAL. (It is not, however, my belief that we will finally be a paperless society by that time.) *Psychiatrists? I've never been able to understand the difference...
Before .NET 4.0, object Universe = NULL;
We are already psychologists. Simply consider how you build a GUI and how you view the user interacting with it. We train users, we play with their minds... and we do it for their benefit! A psychologist is not a real doctor. Rather, it is a person with at most a PhD , that is, a doctorate in philosophy. One can obtain doctorates in philosophy in linguistics, mathematics, music, and even Ultimate Frisbee. A psychiatrist is a real doctor. It has studied far many years, has specialized in psychiatry, and has an understanding of how the body and brain works from a medical point of view. In short, and no matter how well intentioned, a psychologist is no more than a faith healer while a psychiatrist is a physician who specializes in psychiatry, psychiatry being the branch of medicine dealing with the diagnosis and treatment of mental disorders.
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I'm reading Neal Asher's books right now and he has an interesting thought on that. In the books, AIs are so powerful that they fully emulate human mind, and even surpass humans in creative/strategic thinking. They can "spawn off sub-minds" to perform the kind of iterative or logically simple tasks that we code by hand today - essentially becoming programmers themselves. In other words, if you had a true AI that could understand an iterative/logical/procedural task, and had "non-neural" hardware or access to it, the AI could conceivably write the programs necessary to accomplish the task.
Before .NET 4.0, object Universe = NULL;
Hired Mind wrote:
AIs are so powerful that they fully emulate human mind
Sure but they don't come in dinky little appliances. Sub minds implies something less that AI = straight program no flair to psycho. Won't happen in a small way, appliances don't need a AI just some simple logic structures, why would you condemn a thinking entity to such boredom. I just finished reading transhuman[^], a book of short stories on this subject - fascinating stuff.
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity RAH
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Hired Mind wrote:
AIs are so powerful that they fully emulate human mind
Sure but they don't come in dinky little appliances. Sub minds implies something less that AI = straight program no flair to psycho. Won't happen in a small way, appliances don't need a AI just some simple logic structures, why would you condemn a thinking entity to such boredom. I just finished reading transhuman[^], a book of short stories on this subject - fascinating stuff.
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity RAH
Mycroft Holmes wrote:
Sure but they don't come in dinky little appliances.
Well they do, but it is a (hard) sci-fi book after all :-D (In the book they are described as approximately the size of the human brain, but the hardware that interfaces it to the outside world is the size of a building.)
Mycroft Holmes wrote:
Won't happen in a small way, appliances don't need a AI just some simple logic structures, why would you condemn a thinking entity to such boredom.
Agreed. I don't think microwaves (or whatever analogous food-prep device exists at that time) will ever have an AI. But I could see an AI controlling all of the simple devices of a home, a neighborhood, or a city...
Mycroft Holmes wrote:
I just finished reading transhuman[^]
Thanks for the tip! I'll check it out.
Before .NET 4.0, object Universe = NULL;
-
We are already psychologists. Simply consider how you build a GUI and how you view the user interacting with it. We train users, we play with their minds... and we do it for their benefit! A psychologist is not a real doctor. Rather, it is a person with at most a PhD , that is, a doctorate in philosophy. One can obtain doctorates in philosophy in linguistics, mathematics, music, and even Ultimate Frisbee. A psychiatrist is a real doctor. It has studied far many years, has specialized in psychiatry, and has an understanding of how the body and brain works from a medical point of view. In short, and no matter how well intentioned, a psychologist is no more than a faith healer while a psychiatrist is a physician who specializes in psychiatry, psychiatry being the branch of medicine dealing with the diagnosis and treatment of mental disorders.
Franc Morales wrote:
a doctorate in philosophy
actually a doctorate in psychology, and state dependent: a certain number of years of practice as an asst to either a licensed psychiatrist or a licensed psychologist. In no state is philosophy allowed as a psychologist. However.... Licensed therapist, often confused with psychologist can be a social worker with any number of backgrounds, in fact, you can have a Masters in theology and be qualified in many states to use the title therapist, social worker, or counselor, but not a psychologist. You get into all the finer details, but often times modern psychiatry and psychology work as a team-pair to help a patient especially in long-term treatments such as PTSD, OCD, and abuse recovery which are growing fields through many 1st world nations. It saves the psychiatrist from having to deal with the time-consuming long-term psychotherapy and focus on the larger details and the physical issues, as well as more immediate and more needy patients. The combination of paired psychotherapy assistance is not always recognized by insurance companies, but is strongly favored by psychiatrists in general since insurance companies were slowly relegating them into only prescribing medicines. The paired service allows the psychiatrist to oversee the psychologist's long-term treatment of an individual, seeing the patient once every quarter or 6 months to assess growth and success of treatment and advise the psychologist on possible alternative treatments. Meanwhile the psychologist sees the patient weekly to monthly depending on the severity of the mental health problems, which decreases costs to the insurance company or the individual. Such treatments have received rave reviews in psychiatric journals because insurance coverage was pushing the entire field of psychiatry into strictly theoretical practice, or prescription services. :) Psychiatry was still popular among the rich, but the rich do not make up the majority of the population, and the paired programs have opened up access to middle income families to gain help in mental health issues that would normally go untreated for lack of funds. Now the opinion of psychiatrists over counselors, clinical social workers, and therapists... you hit the nail on the head there. A degree in advanced basket weaving and short period of internship and you can be a licensed clinical social worker....
_________________________ John Andrew Holmes "It is well to reme
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Hired Mind wrote:
programmers will be more like Psychologists
You know someone had to....[^]
Hired Mind wrote:
*Psychiatrists? I've never been able to understand the difference...
Actually there is a difference and it is more than drugs. Psychiatrists treat the mental illness. First they assess all the mental illnesses you have, then attempt to explain the origin of such mental illnesses, either physical (give 'em drugs) or sociological (treat them with psychotherapy for years in attempt to understand just how deep the psychosis goes and maybe find a solution in the process). Often times it is joked, and it is not too far from the truth for some doctors, that many psychiatrists have no interest in curing anyone, but rather studying in depth all the details of the conditions exhibited by the patient to understand all the nuances in every situation encountered. From the programmer stand-point, it would be akin to studying a bug and documenting it's behavior in every conceivable situation, even setting up new situations under which to study the bug in unexpected and never encountered situations, discovering which programmer put the bug in there, how the bug came to be there, what was intended instead of the bug, what was there before the bug, what could be there without the bug... but never actually fixing the bug. :-D in other words... a consultant. :laugh: The psychologists treat the behavior model. The goal is to shape the person's behavior in order to be able to function in society as a normal human being. Because they treat behavior problems, they are not doctors, they don't give drugs. Their goal is to shape the behavior until functional equilibrium with society is established.
_________________________ John Andrew Holmes "It is well to remember that the entire universe, with one trifling exception, is composed of others." Shhhhh.... I am not really here. I am a figment of your imagination.... I am still in my cave so this must be an illusion....
Excellent description! :-D The only thing I'm sure of is that: 1. Neurotics build castles in the air, 2. Psychotics live in them, 3. Psychologists & psychiatrists collect the rents.
"A Journey of a Thousand Rest Stops Begins with a Single Movement"
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Franc Morales wrote:
a doctorate in philosophy
actually a doctorate in psychology, and state dependent: a certain number of years of practice as an asst to either a licensed psychiatrist or a licensed psychologist. In no state is philosophy allowed as a psychologist. However.... Licensed therapist, often confused with psychologist can be a social worker with any number of backgrounds, in fact, you can have a Masters in theology and be qualified in many states to use the title therapist, social worker, or counselor, but not a psychologist. You get into all the finer details, but often times modern psychiatry and psychology work as a team-pair to help a patient especially in long-term treatments such as PTSD, OCD, and abuse recovery which are growing fields through many 1st world nations. It saves the psychiatrist from having to deal with the time-consuming long-term psychotherapy and focus on the larger details and the physical issues, as well as more immediate and more needy patients. The combination of paired psychotherapy assistance is not always recognized by insurance companies, but is strongly favored by psychiatrists in general since insurance companies were slowly relegating them into only prescribing medicines. The paired service allows the psychiatrist to oversee the psychologist's long-term treatment of an individual, seeing the patient once every quarter or 6 months to assess growth and success of treatment and advise the psychologist on possible alternative treatments. Meanwhile the psychologist sees the patient weekly to monthly depending on the severity of the mental health problems, which decreases costs to the insurance company or the individual. Such treatments have received rave reviews in psychiatric journals because insurance coverage was pushing the entire field of psychiatry into strictly theoretical practice, or prescription services. :) Psychiatry was still popular among the rich, but the rich do not make up the majority of the population, and the paired programs have opened up access to middle income families to gain help in mental health issues that would normally go untreated for lack of funds. Now the opinion of psychiatrists over counselors, clinical social workers, and therapists... you hit the nail on the head there. A degree in advanced basket weaving and short period of internship and you can be a licensed clinical social worker....
_________________________ John Andrew Holmes "It is well to reme
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You have elaborated on the matter quite well. It's bound to the US but all are valid observations nonetheless.
DaTxomin wrote:
It's bound to the US but all are valid observations nonetheless.
That is true, it is the only one I have experience dealing with. Lets see the last time I was in Europe was oh.... 1965... and I was being born, I don't remember any interchanges with the psychiatric community.... :-D Oops just noticed you are from Japan, as was the original poster... well, all I know is history there, I know zilch about medical practices....
_________________________ John Andrew Holmes "It is well to remember that the entire universe, with one trifling exception, is composed of others." Shhhhh.... I am not really here. I am a figment of your imagination.... I am still in my cave so this must be an illusion....
modified on Tuesday, July 13, 2010 11:19 PM
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The post about "'Virtual Human' Milo" reminded me of this. I've never brought this up in a forum of programmers so I'd be interested in what this talented group of people has to say: I think that in 50 years, computers (at least those that are not in the most basic appliances) will be so sophisticated that programmers will be more like Psychologists* than today's programmers. Imagine the scene from the movie 2010 where the computer programmer is talking to SAL, the earth-bound copy HAL. (It is not, however, my belief that we will finally be a paperless society by that time.) *Psychiatrists? I've never been able to understand the difference...
Before .NET 4.0, object Universe = NULL;
Yes, I'm also determined to be a good daddy and raise my programs to be good and decent AIs. I will not let them get away with taking over the world, starting nuclear wars or even leaving me locked out in front of the airlock without my spacesuit's helmet.
A while ago he asked me what he should have printed on my business cards. I said 'Wizard'. I read books which nobody else understand. Then I do something which nobody understands. After that the computer does something which nobody understands. When asked, I say things about the results which nobody understand. But everybody expects miracles from me on a regular basis. Looks to me like the classical definition of a wizard.
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The post about "'Virtual Human' Milo" reminded me of this. I've never brought this up in a forum of programmers so I'd be interested in what this talented group of people has to say: I think that in 50 years, computers (at least those that are not in the most basic appliances) will be so sophisticated that programmers will be more like Psychologists* than today's programmers. Imagine the scene from the movie 2010 where the computer programmer is talking to SAL, the earth-bound copy HAL. (It is not, however, my belief that we will finally be a paperless society by that time.) *Psychiatrists? I've never been able to understand the difference...
Before .NET 4.0, object Universe = NULL;
Hired Mind wrote:
Psychologists*
Hired Mind wrote:
Psychiatrists? I've never been able to understand the difference...
Do you think you can tell a C programmer for a java coder? :)
If the Lord God Almighty had consulted me before embarking upon the Creation, I would have recommended something simpler. -- Alfonso the Wise, 13th Century King of Castile.
This is going on my arrogant assumptions. You may have a superb reason why I'm completely wrong. -- Iain Clarke
[My articles] -
James L. Thomson wrote:
Psychologists talk to you, psychiatrists give you drugs.
Ah thanks. I'll just remember it like this "Psychologists = Bad, Psychiatrists = Good". :laugh:
Before .NET 4.0, object Universe = NULL;
Hired Mind wrote:
I'll just remember it like this "Psychologists = Bad, Psychiatrists = Good".
Not at all. Both have their place in mental health care. A better description is that the psychiatrist fixes your hardware, while the psychologist repairs the software.
Software Zen:
delete this; -
James L. Thomson wrote:
Psychologists talk to you, psychiatrists give you drugs.
Ah thanks. I'll just remember it like this "Psychologists = Bad, Psychiatrists = Good". :laugh:
Before .NET 4.0, object Universe = NULL;
Psychologists not only talk to you, they observe everything that is going on your mind. But Psychiatrists can only give you drugs, they are just another type of doctor with some knowledge of Psychology.