Is .Net development really so outre?
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As far as I understand it things go something like this. Once upon a time back around the dawn of the year two thousand or so people could make vast fortunes by selling you virtual old rope on the internets. Then the big bang happened and people realised that the old rope was only virtual old rope and they'd lost all their money. But the thing was the bigwigs in tech companies thought "There must be a way to make huge amounts of money out of these internet thingies" So they set about selling digital copies of everything from music to toilet roll and thus everyone said the pc was dead. And the bigwigs looked at what they had done and thought it was good. So they said "There must be more ways to make money out these dumb err valued customers maybe we can rent them some virtual old rope or something, instead of selling them it outright." And everyone predicted the pc was dead. At the moment there's more money to be had with internet virtual old rope and I hear virtual snake oils going to be big next year. That and writing toy apps for retarded watches is a good money spinner these days. Though apparently apple's nano can now tell the time too. I suspect there will be steady work for standard pc fare in the future though not much will happen in the way of innovation as all the money is being thrown at the quick buck earners. Not that I personally feel there has been any real innovation in pc development for the last 10-20 years. It's mostly been different ways to write exactly the same thing. Though I should mention that I haven't got round to reading that book I bought about wpf yet and apparently its a dead dog already. Pity it's a Petzold too.
pseudonym67 My Articles[^] Personal Music Player[^]
pseudonym67 wrote:
Though I should mention that I haven't got round to reading that book I bought about wpf yet and apparently its a dead dog already.
Which is caninus mortis? Your book or the WPF platform? I was under the impression that WPF is the official successor to Windows Forms. Even if I am sticking to the MS platform, I would still think it's best practice to keep abreast of Microsoft's own development tools... Not to mention that I think WPF is sweeet. Routed events, control composition , command routing.... [EDIT] Hmmm I guess I'm more of a mushroom than I realized.. http://www.riagenic.com/archives/363[^] I still like WPF though. YS
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Where did you get this idea? The world is changing. So is Microsoft. Although Microsoft is not in its peak anymore, it will take a long time for it to be out. It may never be out but evolve.
TOMZ_KV
Tomz_KV wrote:
Where did you get this idea?
[Hey, I just noticed that big "Quote Selected Text" button!] Take a sample of any 20 dev related articles from the CodeProject Daily News, and read the comments. That will give you the same idea - the future of development lies not in Redmond. I'm not saying that Microsoft is going away. Just that you can get the feeling that we're second class citizens in the dev world. YS
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As far as I understand it things go something like this. Once upon a time back around the dawn of the year two thousand or so people could make vast fortunes by selling you virtual old rope on the internets. Then the big bang happened and people realised that the old rope was only virtual old rope and they'd lost all their money. But the thing was the bigwigs in tech companies thought "There must be a way to make huge amounts of money out of these internet thingies" So they set about selling digital copies of everything from music to toilet roll and thus everyone said the pc was dead. And the bigwigs looked at what they had done and thought it was good. So they said "There must be more ways to make money out these dumb err valued customers maybe we can rent them some virtual old rope or something, instead of selling them it outright." And everyone predicted the pc was dead. At the moment there's more money to be had with internet virtual old rope and I hear virtual snake oils going to be big next year. That and writing toy apps for retarded watches is a good money spinner these days. Though apparently apple's nano can now tell the time too. I suspect there will be steady work for standard pc fare in the future though not much will happen in the way of innovation as all the money is being thrown at the quick buck earners. Not that I personally feel there has been any real innovation in pc development for the last 10-20 years. It's mostly been different ways to write exactly the same thing. Though I should mention that I haven't got round to reading that book I bought about wpf yet and apparently its a dead dog already. Pity it's a Petzold too.
pseudonym67 My Articles[^] Personal Music Player[^]
I followed JSOP's posting on the tweets about WPF with some people I know at MS. The take on this from MS is that SL is being pushed harder because it's a user story - in other words, the message is about convincing people to install the SL plugin. WPF is very much alive and kicking - work is already under way on vNext, and there are some great features in there. I wouldn't give up on WPF just yet if I were you. My prediction - we'll see more convergence between WPF and SL over the next couple of years, possibly with WPF being rebranded to SL.
I have CDO, it's OCD with the letters in the right order; just as they ruddy well should be
Forgive your enemies - it messes with their heads
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Tomz_KV wrote:
Where did you get this idea?
[Hey, I just noticed that big "Quote Selected Text" button!] Take a sample of any 20 dev related articles from the CodeProject Daily News, and read the comments. That will give you the same idea - the future of development lies not in Redmond. I'm not saying that Microsoft is going away. Just that you can get the feeling that we're second class citizens in the dev world. YS
The bottom line - journalistically, sex sells. Android and iPhone are sexy and available right now (and as close to sex as computing journalists are likely to get), so it's easy to fill articles about them. Primarily this is because there's a market there for the solo developer to make a bit of money, but that doesn't mean that .NET is going anywhere soon or even second class.
yoni at jefco wrote:
That will give you the same idea - the future of development lies not in Redmond.
No, it just tells me that journalists only focus on glossies. Business applications don't really sell stories, and consequently advertising, so these sources will continue to focus on the easy targets.
I have CDO, it's OCD with the letters in the right order; just as they ruddy well should be
Forgive your enemies - it messes with their heads
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Woah - had to look up the dictionary twice there! You Afghanis sure speak some weird dialect ;P
Regards, Nish
My technology blog: voidnish.wordpress.com (recently moved from web-host to wordpress)
Nishant Sivakumar wrote:
You Afghanis sure speak some weird dialect
I just got that Afghani reference. Apparently my profile had Afghanistan as my location. I have just corrected it to my true location : The small but proud nation of Anonymous Proxy.
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Innovation has largely been happening outside of the .NET world so that what gets most of the spotlight. And most of those innovations are not built with .NET tools. The MS platform however still seems to be the goto platform (pun) for business apps. And those change at a rather slow pace so I would imagine the MS platform surviving for a while. Who knows in 10yrs time.
Todd Smith
Todd Smith wrote:
Innovation has largely been happening outside of the .NET world
That means it's stable, right?
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pseudonym67 wrote:
Though I should mention that I haven't got round to reading that book I bought about wpf yet and apparently its a dead dog already.
Which is caninus mortis? Your book or the WPF platform? I was under the impression that WPF is the official successor to Windows Forms. Even if I am sticking to the MS platform, I would still think it's best practice to keep abreast of Microsoft's own development tools... Not to mention that I think WPF is sweeet. Routed events, control composition , command routing.... [EDIT] Hmmm I guess I'm more of a mushroom than I realized.. http://www.riagenic.com/archives/363[^] I still like WPF though. YS
Indeed, I don't miss windows forms one bit since I moved on to WPF. It's only the strange and buggy designer in VS 2008 that gives me pains.
A while ago he asked me what he should have printed on my business cards. I said 'Wizard'. I read books which nobody else understand. Then I do something which nobody understands. After that the computer does something which nobody understands. When asked, I say things about the results which nobody understand. But everybody expects miracles from me on a regular basis. Looks to me like the classical definition of a wizard.
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The bottom line - journalistically, sex sells. Android and iPhone are sexy and available right now (and as close to sex as computing journalists are likely to get), so it's easy to fill articles about them. Primarily this is because there's a market there for the solo developer to make a bit of money, but that doesn't mean that .NET is going anywhere soon or even second class.
yoni at jefco wrote:
That will give you the same idea - the future of development lies not in Redmond.
No, it just tells me that journalists only focus on glossies. Business applications don't really sell stories, and consequently advertising, so these sources will continue to focus on the easy targets.
I have CDO, it's OCD with the letters in the right order; just as they ruddy well should be
Forgive your enemies - it messes with their heads
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yoni at jefco wrote:
"There are still Java and COBOL programmers" I hope a) You would not use that reasoning to advise someone to take up COBOL programming for a living b) If so, that you are not the career counselor at my son's school.
Giant legacy apps never die. With the caveat that you'll be required to work for MegaCorp and deal with the resulting bureaucratic overhead you get high job-security because finding replacements isn't easy and above average pay scales because it's necessary to entice younger devs away from newer shinier tools, or to entice senior devs to continue writing code instead of going into management.
3x12=36 2x12=24 1x12=12 0x12=18
At the same time, it can be an awesome niche market for consultants. I'm not willing to do it, but there's some big bucks to be made. Then again, SharePoint's in almost the same ballpark, and it doesn't seem to be anywhere near as painful as it was even a year ago. I'll eventually come up with something clever to put here. Really.
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ebresie wrote:
There are still Java and COBOL programmers
I hope a) You would not use that reasoning to advise someone to take up COBOL programming for a living b) If so, that you are not the career counselor at my son's school. I think I can get a job churning my own butter too, if I apply at the correct locations in Amish Country. YS
modified on Monday, September 13, 2010 2:49 PM
I know network admin who left my previous employer and turned Amish (yes, you can!) and there is even competition in the butter churning arena. In his case, Amish furniture. He even asked if there was work he could do for us there. But because he didn't have electricity at his house, he would have to go to a neighbor's to use his computer. I didn't question it. At that point you just nod and smile politely.
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yoni at jefco wrote:
"There are still Java and COBOL programmers" I hope a) You would not use that reasoning to advise someone to take up COBOL programming for a living b) If so, that you are not the career counselor at my son's school.
Giant legacy apps never die. With the caveat that you'll be required to work for MegaCorp and deal with the resulting bureaucratic overhead you get high job-security because finding replacements isn't easy and above average pay scales because it's necessary to entice younger devs away from newer shinier tools, or to entice senior devs to continue writing code instead of going into management.
3x12=36 2x12=24 1x12=12 0x12=18
You're totally correct. There are far too many systems (specially banking ones) that work on mainframe COBOL, and it's far too risky and expensive to replace them. COBOL programmers are becoming rare to maintain these systems and when they are found, they usually get a high pay. I know some young programmers that started on COBOL, so yes, it can make a hell of a good living. Personally I'd like to stay away from it, but this doesn't mean it will disappear.
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Hi Y'all I have a question; I have been a purely Microsoft platform developer my whole career (14 yrs VB->VB.Net->c#, ASP.net, SQl server). I'm happy with it, and I think I get good work done. From reading the codeproject daily newsletter,though, and especially most of the comments of the articles posted therein, I feel somewhat of a troglodyte. I'm kind of a mushroom- I don't know really know much of what's going on in the bright "real world", so I'm interested in the opinions of the intelligent and handsome members of this lounge; Is MS platform development really on the way out? What pct of real-world (Enterprise, mission critical) systems being developed today do you think are MS vs. Non-MS? Cheers, YS
I've been developing for almost 30 years now and I'm closer to retirement (I hope) than college. I Started with Apple basic/machine language and Pascal. In College I transitioned from Pascal to C. Through most of my career I was working with several fringe technologies: Pick, Mumps, Progress (12 years). Progress was good for a while but over time MS IDEs and SQL server began to take over the Progress market (lower cost alternative to Oracle) and their main competition, Sybase. As jobs started drying up I decided to get into something mainstream and spent several years transitioning to pure .NET development. 8-10 years ago would see on Progress job a month (most were on the east coast) where before there would be several a week. Right now, I see 20-30 jobs a week on www.dice.com in my area (Dallas, Ft. Worth Texas). This has been steady even through the economy meltdown (first half of 2009 saw a 50-75% decrease but there were still jobs). If I start to see a sharp decline that is no a result of the economy will will start to get concerned. I don't see a big threat to .NET as a development platform. There are very few companies that can allocate the resources to develop an architecture as robust and complex as .NET and maintain it. A lot of the new MS stuff is built on top of .NET so you still have a good foundation if something like Silverlight gets big. Mobile is a hot topic right now (and getting a lot of press right now) but you can't run a decent sized business on a mobile phone so that means Unix and Windows servers will be around for a while. The cloud is just another iteration of an old idea. Computer Time Sharing (through 80s), Application Servers (80s and 90s) and several others I can't even remember have come and gone. In my experience, companies will ultimately want to control their data and their code. I have only been involved in a few outsourced systems (salesforce.com being the most well known) and it never seems to go well. There is almost always a requirement to modify the stock application (users are never happy with whats in the box) and they never seem to integrate well with the legacy systems. As stated before, if you're good you can transition to the new technology. The key is to stay on top of your skills and make sure they are still in demand. It took me 5 years and a 25% pay cut to transition from 100% Progress to 100% .NET. Mainly becuase I missed the downturn by 2-3 years (Damn you 90s IT boom). So that's whay I am always watching the job market. Now I'm in a stable position wo
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Innovation has largely been happening outside of the .NET world so that what gets most of the spotlight. And most of those innovations are not built with .NET tools. The MS platform however still seems to be the goto platform (pun) for business apps. And those change at a rather slow pace so I would imagine the MS platform surviving for a while. Who knows in 10yrs time.
Todd Smith
Todd Smith wrote:
The MS platform however still seems to be the goto platform (pun) for business apps.
Inadvisable pun. I suggest you switch your choice of words. Just in case. Gotta take a break now... YS
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Hi Y'all I have a question; I have been a purely Microsoft platform developer my whole career (14 yrs VB->VB.Net->c#, ASP.net, SQl server). I'm happy with it, and I think I get good work done. From reading the codeproject daily newsletter,though, and especially most of the comments of the articles posted therein, I feel somewhat of a troglodyte. I'm kind of a mushroom- I don't know really know much of what's going on in the bright "real world", so I'm interested in the opinions of the intelligent and handsome members of this lounge; Is MS platform development really on the way out? What pct of real-world (Enterprise, mission critical) systems being developed today do you think are MS vs. Non-MS? Cheers, YS
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Hi Y'all I have a question; I have been a purely Microsoft platform developer my whole career (14 yrs VB->VB.Net->c#, ASP.net, SQl server). I'm happy with it, and I think I get good work done. From reading the codeproject daily newsletter,though, and especially most of the comments of the articles posted therein, I feel somewhat of a troglodyte. I'm kind of a mushroom- I don't know really know much of what's going on in the bright "real world", so I'm interested in the opinions of the intelligent and handsome members of this lounge; Is MS platform development really on the way out? What pct of real-world (Enterprise, mission critical) systems being developed today do you think are MS vs. Non-MS? Cheers, YS
If .NET is dead or dying, that would mean that the companies that use it are moving to another platform. So, what platform are they moving to? The only reason that you get this impression from reading the CodeProject discussion boards is because people love to make themselves seem smart, and bashing .NET seems to be one way to do that for some. You need to look no further than this thread to see the phenomenom in action. You ask a legitimate question about your concern with .NET and the discussion ends up talking about other platforms until it ends up with the ever-tiring COBOL discussion. NOTE: This sequence of events could have been predicted by any number of the smart people that read this board.
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yoni at jefco wrote:
"There are still Java and COBOL programmers" I hope a) You would not use that reasoning to advise someone to take up COBOL programming for a living b) If so, that you are not the career counselor at my son's school.
Giant legacy apps never die. With the caveat that you'll be required to work for MegaCorp and deal with the resulting bureaucratic overhead you get high job-security because finding replacements isn't easy and above average pay scales because it's necessary to entice younger devs away from newer shinier tools, or to entice senior devs to continue writing code instead of going into management.
3x12=36 2x12=24 1x12=12 0x12=18
Dan Neely wrote:
to entice senior devs to continue writing code instead of going into management.
While I probably don't fit into the handsome group here and that my belonging to the intelligent group is often in question, that's never stopped me from offering my opinion before. There are just too many business Microsoft-only shops to ever think that Microsoft development products (.NET or whatever comes down the line next) would ever be out-dated in the near future. Predictions beyond the near future are more likely to be completely bogus. Remember the "no one ever got fired for buying IBM" quote of the past. Now for the reason for the quoted text above ... I'm nearing the end of my career as a programmer and many years of that long career someone tried to convince me to go into management as an advancement. I always avoided it, sometimes resulting in damage to that career (i.e. lower pay), because I didn't see it as an advancement in my intended career but as a complete change of career. I didn't want to be a manager, I wanted to be a programmer, even though many companies and managers thought it was a "natural" progression to the point of discriminating against older programmers who chose not to become managers. No one ever tried to pay me more to stay in programming. I was more often looked down on for being an old programmer. I find it interesting that others might have had the opposite experience.