Happy Birthday Google
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Mark Wallace wrote:
That may mean that the clueless can find their way here, but it also means that those who do know what they're doing can get what they need from here, too.
I admire your sense of humor bro. I would like to know only one thing, before opening CP for the first time, how did you have an idea about the conent present in the site/page ?!?! Whether you accept or not, everyone is clueless (with clueless I mean naïve/beginner) for the first time.
Sucess is going from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm.
modified on Monday, September 27, 2010 3:35 AM
To add to Mark's point - one thing that you see a lot in the forums here is somebody voting you down because you don't supply them with the code to solve their problem. They seem to labour under the misapprehsion that this is rentacoder, and take it as a personal affront that you don't do their thinking for them.
I have CDO, it's OCD with the letters in the right order; just as they ruddy well should be
Forgive your enemies - it messes with their heads
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Sushant Joshi wrote:
Whether you accept or not, everyone is clueless (with clueless I mean naïve/beginner) for the first time.
Very true. I've also heard the same sentiment expressed as: "There are no difficult problems. There are only easy problems I don't yet know how to solve." and "Everything is difficult until you know how to do it."
Electron Shepherd wrote:
Very true. I've also heard the same sentiment expressed as: "There are no difficult problems. There are only easy problems I don't yet know how to solve." and "Everything is difficult until you know how to do it."
Or, more cruelly, as You ARE the weakest link!"
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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Sushant Joshi wrote:
I don't believe that people are simply downloading the stuff from net and directly pasting it all over without knowing a bit of it.
You need to follow programming forums a bit more :)
Aamir Butt wrote:
You need to follow programming forums a bit more
I do follow sir, and I myself have posted both questions and answers on several forums including few products which we use in our project. My statement was regarding the same, for example, I am using a third-party tool in my application, it is not possible for every developer to know every possible function/feature of the tool, and I believe that if (s)he is stuck at some point; I don't feel that it is crime for developer to search on the net or post on the forum of the tool (as most of the licensed tools provide 1 yr priority support) so that (s)he can get ideas and proceed with the deliverables.
Sucess is going from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm.
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Sushant Joshi wrote:
I don't believe that people are simply downloading the stuff from net and directly pasting it all over without knowing a bit of it.
You don't help out much in the forums do you? :-D
I have CDO, it's OCD with the letters in the right order; just as they ruddy well should be
Forgive your enemies - it messes with their heads
Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
You don't help out much in the forums do you?
I do, however, may not be as much as you. However, I myself have posted both questions and answers (relatively less) on several forums including few products which we use in our project. For example, I am using a third-party tool in my application, it is not possible for me to know every possible function/feature of the tool(s) and then only proceed for the coding phase. Whenever, we procure a tool, we check for few features which we need, do check if any other team in the organization has used the features with tool et al. Now, in the midst of coding if I am stuck at some point; I don't feel that it is crime to search on the net or post on the forum of the tool (as most of the licensed tools provide one yr priority support) so that we can get ideas and proceed with the deliverables.
Sucess is going from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm.
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Sushant Joshi wrote:
I don't believe that people are simply downloading the stuff from net and directly pasting it all over without knowing a bit of it.
Niave or stupid?
Two heads are better than one.
Norm .net wrote:
Niave or stupid?
Please be clear so that I can resond accordingly.
Sucess is going from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm.
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To add to Mark's point - one thing that you see a lot in the forums here is somebody voting you down because you don't supply them with the code to solve their problem. They seem to labour under the misapprehsion that this is rentacoder, and take it as a personal affront that you don't do their thinking for them.
I have CDO, it's OCD with the letters in the right order; just as they ruddy well should be
Forgive your enemies - it messes with their heads
Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
To add to Mark's point - one thing that you see a lot in the forums here is somebody voting you down because you don't supply them with the code to solve their problem. They seem to labour under the misapprehsion that this is rentacoder, and take it as a personal affront that you don't do their thinking for them.
Hmm .. If some one votes down an article just b'cause the author has not responded and provided them snippets, it is unacceptable. However, I was just advocating that it is perfectly fine to use Google as tool to gain knowledge and learn new things, as everyone is not equally intelligent and experienced. Hence, it would be unfair to call the people as inefficient, clueless and disintrested.
Sucess is going from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm.
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Sushant Joshi wrote:
Whether you accept or not, everyone is clueless (with clueless I mean naïve/beginner) for the first time.
No argument here (although I think you either misunderstood what I wrote or you're replying to the wrong person). Cluelessness is themed, though, and has depth -- and applies to everything, not just coding. For example, I jump from project to project, and project element to project element, so frequently that I can find being myself clueless several times a week, and have to spend a lot of time trying to understand WTF I'm looking at, reading up, and tinkering to see how things really work. Some of the things I have problems with, I could implement very easily in other ways, and people who know the (for me, new) way could well look down at me as clueless -- until they have to implement it in a (for them, new) way that I'm familiar with, when I could look down on them as being clueless. So we're all clueless, really. And the average Barbie would look down on almost everyone in CP for not knowing enough about different brands of eye shadow (maybe not DD -- have you seen the black line around the daleks' eyeballs?). So I don't have a problem with cluelessness, as long as it's accompanied by a willingness to learn, rather than "SNED CODS PLEEZZZ!"
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
Appreciate your point :)
Sucess is going from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm.
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Arun Jacob wrote:
Orkut got attacked
:omg: Nah, Indians don't mind; have moved to Facebook (finally...) :)
:laugh:
Sucess is going from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm.
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Arun Jacob wrote:
Orkut got attacked
:omg: Nah, Indians don't mind; have moved to Facebook (finally...) :)
SQL.NET wrote:
Nah, Indians don't mind; have moved to Facebook (finally...)
orkut also made a newer version similar to facebook. :)
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...with the main side effect IMO of making it easier for technically clueless people to take on programming work, and students to cheat on their homework... Hmm, and this place here did not help at all?
A while ago he asked me what he should have printed on my business cards. I said 'Wizard'. I read books which nobody else understand. Then I do something which nobody understands. After that the computer does something which nobody understands. When asked, I say things about the results which nobody understand. But everybody expects miracles from me on a regular basis. Looks to me like the classical definition of a wizard.
This place, as you put it, is here to help reputable professionals and motivated hobbyists do their jobs. It is not here to provide a free ride to shiftless morons who'd rather cheat their way through life than work.
Software Zen:
delete this;
Fold With Us![^] -
Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
To add to Mark's point - one thing that you see a lot in the forums here is somebody voting you down because you don't supply them with the code to solve their problem. They seem to labour under the misapprehsion that this is rentacoder, and take it as a personal affront that you don't do their thinking for them.
Hmm .. If some one votes down an article just b'cause the author has not responded and provided them snippets, it is unacceptable. However, I was just advocating that it is perfectly fine to use Google as tool to gain knowledge and learn new things, as everyone is not equally intelligent and experienced. Hence, it would be unfair to call the people as inefficient, clueless and disintrested.
Sucess is going from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm.
Christian and Mark both eloquently point out that Google has lowered the barrier to entry to such a point that people who are eminently unsuited to a programming job are actually getting employed as coders. A lot of it is to do with the outsourcing culture, where companies have effectively become bodyshoppers, with people becoming commodities and not skilled workers. Imagine if Google offered access to information on how to perform brain surgery - would you like to see that in the hands of the unwashed masses? I know I wouldn't.
I have CDO, it's OCD with the letters in the right order; just as they ruddy well should be
Forgive your enemies - it messes with their heads
-
Christian and Mark both eloquently point out that Google has lowered the barrier to entry to such a point that people who are eminently unsuited to a programming job are actually getting employed as coders. A lot of it is to do with the outsourcing culture, where companies have effectively become bodyshoppers, with people becoming commodities and not skilled workers. Imagine if Google offered access to information on how to perform brain surgery - would you like to see that in the hands of the unwashed masses? I know I wouldn't.
I have CDO, it's OCD with the letters in the right order; just as they ruddy well should be
Forgive your enemies - it messes with their heads
True but programming has a different skill set. After all, it's not brain surgery.
Henry Minute Do not read medical books! You could die of a misprint. - Mark Twain Girl: (staring) "Why do you need an icy cucumber?" “I want to report a fraud. The government is lying to us all.”
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Christian and Mark both eloquently point out that Google has lowered the barrier to entry to such a point that people who are eminently unsuited to a programming job are actually getting employed as coders. A lot of it is to do with the outsourcing culture, where companies have effectively become bodyshoppers, with people becoming commodities and not skilled workers. Imagine if Google offered access to information on how to perform brain surgery - would you like to see that in the hands of the unwashed masses? I know I wouldn't.
I have CDO, it's OCD with the letters in the right order; just as they ruddy well should be
Forgive your enemies - it messes with their heads
Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
outsourcing culture, where companies have effectively become bodyshoppers, with people becoming commodities and not skilled workers.
Here it is (I was anticipating this response), so you are fine if a dumb ass in UK, Canada or US who cannot even create a web page is paid heavily to support application with less than one ticket per week. However, you have issues when the same work is done lot cheaper in India, Vietnam, Philippines or China. I object the use of phrase - "outsourcing culture". A good developer is a good developer, he can be in any part of the world. Similarly, a bad developer is a bad developer and (s)he should not be tagged based on his work location or ethnicity.
Sucess is going from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm.
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Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
You don't help out much in the forums do you?
I do, however, may not be as much as you. However, I myself have posted both questions and answers (relatively less) on several forums including few products which we use in our project. For example, I am using a third-party tool in my application, it is not possible for me to know every possible function/feature of the tool(s) and then only proceed for the coding phase. Whenever, we procure a tool, we check for few features which we need, do check if any other team in the organization has used the features with tool et al. Now, in the midst of coding if I am stuck at some point; I don't feel that it is crime to search on the net or post on the forum of the tool (as most of the licensed tools provide one yr priority support) so that we can get ideas and proceed with the deliverables.
Sucess is going from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm.
Sushant Joshi wrote:
Whenever, we procure a tool, we check for few features which we need, do check if any other team in the organization has used the features with tool et al. Now, in the midst of coding if I am stuck at some point; I don't feel that it is crime to search on the net or post on the forum of the tool (as most of the licensed tools provide one yr priority support) so that we can get ideas and proceed with the deliverables.
Nobody suggested that you shouldn't search for help. Only an idiot would attempt to keep banging away at a problem without seeing if somebody else has encountered and solved a problem before. The problem occurs when somebody asks for an entire application/algorithm without attempting to do any work on it.
I have CDO, it's OCD with the letters in the right order; just as they ruddy well should be
Forgive your enemies - it messes with their heads
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Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
outsourcing culture, where companies have effectively become bodyshoppers, with people becoming commodities and not skilled workers.
Here it is (I was anticipating this response), so you are fine if a dumb ass in UK, Canada or US who cannot even create a web page is paid heavily to support application with less than one ticket per week. However, you have issues when the same work is done lot cheaper in India, Vietnam, Philippines or China. I object the use of phrase - "outsourcing culture". A good developer is a good developer, he can be in any part of the world. Similarly, a bad developer is a bad developer and (s)he should not be tagged based on his work location or ethnicity.
Sucess is going from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm.
Sushant Joshi wrote:
Here it is (I was anticipating this response), so you are fine if a dumb ass in UK, Canada or US who cannot even create a web page is paid heavily to support application with less than one ticket per week. However, you have issues when the same work is done lot cheaper in India, Vietnam, Philippines or China.
Get off your high horse - stop imagining racism where none exists. At no point did I target any nation - I'm one of the few here who doesn't (you might actually want to check my posts on this topic). I have been in the industry a very long time, and bodyshopping/outsourcing predates getting people from another country involved - I'm very careful not to suggest otherwise; outsourcing used to be a company hiring a consultancy to come in and cram a project with people and then getting hammered by unskilled devs who haven't got a clue. The culture was always, bring in a number of skilled developers for the first month or two of a project, and then replace them with any numpty who happened to walk by the office door regardless of skillset. Now, maybe you want to apologise - I'm bloody angry with you right now. [Edit]The term you should find objectionable is offshoring[/Edit]
I have CDO, it's OCD with the letters in the right order; just as they ruddy well should be
Forgive your enemies - it messes with their heads
My blog | My articles | MoXAML PowerToys | Onyx
modified on Monday, September 27, 2010 7:22 AM
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Christian and Mark both eloquently point out that Google has lowered the barrier to entry to such a point that people who are eminently unsuited to a programming job are actually getting employed as coders. A lot of it is to do with the outsourcing culture, where companies have effectively become bodyshoppers, with people becoming commodities and not skilled workers. Imagine if Google offered access to information on how to perform brain surgery - would you like to see that in the hands of the unwashed masses? I know I wouldn't.
I have CDO, it's OCD with the letters in the right order; just as they ruddy well should be
Forgive your enemies - it messes with their heads
Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
Imagine if Google offered access to information on how to perform brain surgery
I just Googled it -- well worth the effort!
SNED NIFEZ PLEEZZZ!
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Sushant Joshi wrote:
Here it is (I was anticipating this response), so you are fine if a dumb ass in UK, Canada or US who cannot even create a web page is paid heavily to support application with less than one ticket per week. However, you have issues when the same work is done lot cheaper in India, Vietnam, Philippines or China.
Get off your high horse - stop imagining racism where none exists. At no point did I target any nation - I'm one of the few here who doesn't (you might actually want to check my posts on this topic). I have been in the industry a very long time, and bodyshopping/outsourcing predates getting people from another country involved - I'm very careful not to suggest otherwise; outsourcing used to be a company hiring a consultancy to come in and cram a project with people and then getting hammered by unskilled devs who haven't got a clue. The culture was always, bring in a number of skilled developers for the first month or two of a project, and then replace them with any numpty who happened to walk by the office door regardless of skillset. Now, maybe you want to apologise - I'm bloody angry with you right now. [Edit]The term you should find objectionable is offshoring[/Edit]
I have CDO, it's OCD with the letters in the right order; just as they ruddy well should be
Forgive your enemies - it messes with their heads
My blog | My articles | MoXAML PowerToys | Onyx
modified on Monday, September 27, 2010 7:22 AM
Cool .. thanks for providing the background. Appreciate your views.
Sucess is going from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm.
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Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
Imagine if Google offered access to information on how to perform brain surgery
I just Googled it -- well worth the effort!
SNED NIFEZ PLEEZZZ!
Cool.:cool:
I have CDO, it's OCD with the letters in the right order; just as they ruddy well should be
Forgive your enemies - it messes with their heads
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Cool .. thanks for providing the background. Appreciate your views.
Sucess is going from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm.
I'm sorry I got angry there. It's one of my pet hates - racism of any description.
I have CDO, it's OCD with the letters in the right order; just as they ruddy well should be
Forgive your enemies - it messes with their heads
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This place, as you put it, is here to help reputable professionals and motivated hobbyists do their jobs. It is not here to provide a free ride to shiftless morons who'd rather cheat their way through life than work.
Software Zen:
delete this;
Fold With Us![^]Yes, certainly. The problem is, that such people will always exist and try to use anything they can for their purposes. Is Google to blame for that? Or 'this place'? And what are the alternatives?
A while ago he asked me what he should have printed on my business cards. I said 'Wizard'. I read books which nobody else understand. Then I do something which nobody understands. After that the computer does something which nobody understands. When asked, I say things about the results which nobody understand. But everybody expects miracles from me on a regular basis. Looks to me like the classical definition of a wizard.