What would you do?
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If you found out a ex-coworker took/stole some code from the company I still work for? (I always suspected this would happen, and now found a Silverlight app he claimed to have developed, obviously I had to look ;P ) While the section of code is trivial, the only thing he bothered to change was the namespace. The rest is pretty much identical, except for it going with EF vs Linq2SQL. - Should I report it? - Should I keep it with me as a possible future bargaining/blackmailing tool? - Should I send him an invoice for the time he wasted in my company* when he originally developed the piece of code*? - Do nothing - Blackmail him? * The one I am still working for. * I had to rewrite the whole thing anyways, as it was crap. The stolen code was what I wrote, in fact.
xacc.ide
IronScheme - 1.0 RC 1 - out now!
((λ (x) `(,x ',x)) '(λ (x) `(,x ',x))) The Scheme Programming Language – Fourth EditionI would report it, the sooner the better. I do agree that whenever someone leaves a job for another, we always take something with us. Generally, most of what we take is in our heads, but there are the occasional snippets that we either "invented" ourself or are so used to using that we just "need" it. One thing to remember, the new job has (at least should have) their own standards, so what we are accustom to just might not be acceptable in the new job because of their standards. I had to fire a man that stoled a complete system from his previous company, and told the manager that hired him that he was authorized to have it because he wrote most of it. I talked to his previous employer and found out he had not even worked on the system, but did work with the system he stoled. While working for our company, he continued to steal, or try to steal PC software is why I even starting thinking the software he brought with him was stolen.
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I wonder if you would like to have on your conscience that you ruined someone's life. Even though it is a kind of theft (actually unauthorized copying), it does not mean the perpetrator is a bad person that deservers a life ruining experience
In the abstract, morality always has a hard and often very sharp edge. That is why it is so important to adhere to the moral principles that are established within our societies, so as not to suffer the consequences found outside of the established boundaries. A “small” amount of stealing is difficult to differentiate from a “large” amount of stealing, in the abstract. If stealing cattle is wrong, then stealing one cow is every bit as bad as stealing a herd, again in the abstract. If we bend our principles at some ill-defined threshold then the ambiguity of our stated principals opens the door to bad acts of all types. Does a snippet of trivial code allow me to land on the moon sooner than my competitor? Has an inconsequential nail served to win a battle and topple a nation? Abstraction relieves me of the need to “feel”, and as a member of a civilized society, my “feelings” must be set aside for the greater good.
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Do nothing because that is a loop hole which company should take care to protect the source code.
rahul
What? "Finders keepers, losers weepers" is prevailing here? That's crap!
A loyal employee has an obligation to notify the company that its intellectual property has been compromised. If the knowledgable employee is not loyal enough to report the incident, then the company had better protect itself further by firing the employee.
It is one thing for developers to leave with code they helped develop if its later use is only for one's own educational development. That's not much different than referring to old notes and assignments from bygone school courses. That shouldn't cause too much heartburn. It is entirely another thing if that code becomes another company's product, particularly if it is a competing company. That's wrong.
Do the right thing. Report it.
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What??? So you are saying the company has to get a warrant to search employee's homes for evidence of company property (code in this case) when they leave the company?
xacc.ide
IronScheme - 1.0 RC 1 - out now!
((λ (x) `(,x ',x)) '(λ (x) `(,x ',x))) The Scheme Programming Language – Fourth Editionleppie wrote:
So you are saying the company has to get a warrant to search employee's homes for evidence of company property (code in this case) when they leave the company?
It shouldn't have got that far in the first place. The Company is obviously lax in guarding its intellectual property. Where I used to work, ANYTHING produced on a company computer was regarded by the Company as THEIR property. This was made plain in the contract of employment terms. No computer had a recordable CD/DVD drive, and USB ports were disabled. Also, all email went through a scrutinising process so that the chances of any company information actually leaving the company was miniscule. Can you imagine Microsoft letting their developers have the ability to take their code home? Somehow, I can't.
Nobody can get the truth out of me because even I don't know what it is. I keep myself in a constant state of utter confusion. - Col. Flagg
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In the abstract, morality always has a hard and often very sharp edge. That is why it is so important to adhere to the moral principles that are established within our societies, so as not to suffer the consequences found outside of the established boundaries. A “small” amount of stealing is difficult to differentiate from a “large” amount of stealing, in the abstract. If stealing cattle is wrong, then stealing one cow is every bit as bad as stealing a herd, again in the abstract. If we bend our principles at some ill-defined threshold then the ambiguity of our stated principals opens the door to bad acts of all types. Does a snippet of trivial code allow me to land on the moon sooner than my competitor? Has an inconsequential nail served to win a battle and topple a nation? Abstraction relieves me of the need to “feel”, and as a member of a civilized society, my “feelings” must be set aside for the greater good.
Apparently the fate of somenoe and his family would not affect you if you did nothing wrong. But, setting aside all this conceptual establishment of right and wrong, I would not rest easy over my pillow knowing that I ruined the life of someone who never directly hurt someone emotionally or physically just because he copied a piece of code. You might say that stealing a candy bar is just as bad as stealing a bank. Or that a hungry kid stealing a bottle of milk is just as bad as a rich dude stealing from many but I don't see it that way. I don't agree with you that judging the deserving fate of someone is unatached to interpretation or situation analysis. Laws are often impartial, but if written laws by themselves were enough, judges wouldn't be necessary to decide the sentence. To me morality does not need to be the judge too. Nor I think we can determine someone's morality just by the course of one of his action, specially not knowing his beliefs or situation. If greater good means pure punishment, then totalitary nations with dictatory leaders would be the ideal way to rule a nation.
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If you found out a ex-coworker took/stole some code from the company I still work for? (I always suspected this would happen, and now found a Silverlight app he claimed to have developed, obviously I had to look ;P ) While the section of code is trivial, the only thing he bothered to change was the namespace. The rest is pretty much identical, except for it going with EF vs Linq2SQL. - Should I report it? - Should I keep it with me as a possible future bargaining/blackmailing tool? - Should I send him an invoice for the time he wasted in my company* when he originally developed the piece of code*? - Do nothing - Blackmail him? * The one I am still working for. * I had to rewrite the whole thing anyways, as it was crap. The stolen code was what I wrote, in fact.
xacc.ide
IronScheme - 1.0 RC 1 - out now!
((λ (x) `(,x ',x)) '(λ (x) `(,x ',x))) The Scheme Programming Language – Fourth Edition1: Stealing is wrong - you better be 100% correct before throwing someone under the bus 2: Blackmail is as wrong as stealing: if you're moved by a theft and even consider blackmail: you're an accomplice My own integrity: If I write code; I have a copy for my own reference unless client has stated specific rules they expect followed. If a client says from the onset there code is not to leave or they expect full ownership of any code I write for them and believe me they say as much if they are concerned usually in an NDA or something; It stays in their house. I also don't bring in my own code to such folks unless there is a clear line between "Wrote this for YOU; this is code I'm letting you use" and I document it as such and they understand. Data: Never goes anywhere! Structures; test data.. but live stuff... stays in said clients folder or databases only as long as is warranted by assigned responsibility: no responsibility for it? Cool: Delete it! The last thing I want to do is take intellectual property from anyone; likewise I expect mine to be respected. Besides: everytime I personally had code I wrote for a client I have never used it for more than a reference on "what I did to solve for x"... or what usually happens: This is an example of what never to do... because frankly I usually am handed a system that already exists and am asked to make it do something new or talk to some other system... all of which usually means I'm inheriting someone else's design. My Jegas Application Server is my own web server/crm/integration software designed from the ground up in a non-mainstream language so all the code is my own and not from clients: but it's where it is today from all the experience I have on what not to do. It's not perfect: but it's pretty awesome. Besides... didn't you say the code this fellow allegedly grabbed was trivial? Like what? A 20 line code snip? You think this guy has the wherewithall to write that little bit of code from scratch if he wanted? I usually leave employers on a good note and they usually don't care if your moral fiber is solid in my experience. I got to tell you the comment about someone taking code from one company and using it to build a system for a new employer.. that sounds completely over the line of what is just to me personally. Building a good data model can take a long time: somehow this bothers me much more than some silverlight code snip that does some little thing. Probably because of it's monetary worth seems closer to grand theft auto th
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leppie wrote:
So you are saying the company has to get a warrant to search employee's homes for evidence of company property (code in this case) when they leave the company?
It shouldn't have got that far in the first place. The Company is obviously lax in guarding its intellectual property. Where I used to work, ANYTHING produced on a company computer was regarded by the Company as THEIR property. This was made plain in the contract of employment terms. No computer had a recordable CD/DVD drive, and USB ports were disabled. Also, all email went through a scrutinising process so that the chances of any company information actually leaving the company was miniscule. Can you imagine Microsoft letting their developers have the ability to take their code home? Somehow, I can't.
Nobody can get the truth out of me because even I don't know what it is. I keep myself in a constant state of utter confusion. - Col. Flagg
Euhemerus wrote:
Can you imagine Microsoft letting their developers have the ability to take their code home? Somehow, I can't.
why not? it is how they started after all!
You cant outrun the world, but there is no harm in getting a head start
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Apparently the fate of somenoe and his family would not affect you if you did nothing wrong. But, setting aside all this conceptual establishment of right and wrong, I would not rest easy over my pillow knowing that I ruined the life of someone who never directly hurt someone emotionally or physically just because he copied a piece of code. You might say that stealing a candy bar is just as bad as stealing a bank. Or that a hungry kid stealing a bottle of milk is just as bad as a rich dude stealing from many but I don't see it that way. I don't agree with you that judging the deserving fate of someone is unatached to interpretation or situation analysis. Laws are often impartial, but if written laws by themselves were enough, judges wouldn't be necessary to decide the sentence. To me morality does not need to be the judge too. Nor I think we can determine someone's morality just by the course of one of his action, specially not knowing his beliefs or situation. If greater good means pure punishment, then totalitary nations with dictatory leaders would be the ideal way to rule a nation.
Dictatorships, generally speaking, arise where societal rules are applied haphazardly. One law, one punishment, without ambiguity or gradients of degree, can be effective. Things fall apart when we begin to assign shades or degrees to morality. That leads to the haphazard or unequal application of justice. There can be no grey, only stark contrasts, or we end up where you and I find ourselves now. We both realize that there is a “wrong”; we have a consensus there, just as the morality that I am thinking about is a consensus morality and not one established by an outside entity. We, you and I, are tripping over the what-to-do about it part of the problem. That is where another consensus must be established. My preference is toward the reduction of complexity and ambiguity in both our rules and our consequences.
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If you found out a ex-coworker took/stole some code from the company I still work for? (I always suspected this would happen, and now found a Silverlight app he claimed to have developed, obviously I had to look ;P ) While the section of code is trivial, the only thing he bothered to change was the namespace. The rest is pretty much identical, except for it going with EF vs Linq2SQL. - Should I report it? - Should I keep it with me as a possible future bargaining/blackmailing tool? - Should I send him an invoice for the time he wasted in my company* when he originally developed the piece of code*? - Do nothing - Blackmail him? * The one I am still working for. * I had to rewrite the whole thing anyways, as it was crap. The stolen code was what I wrote, in fact.
xacc.ide
IronScheme - 1.0 RC 1 - out now!
((λ (x) `(,x ',x)) '(λ (x) `(,x ',x))) The Scheme Programming Language – Fourth EditionFrom the replies some people consider it theft. But is it? The first company isn't denied the use of the code simply because the second company has the same (or similar) code. (There is a whole philosophical debate raging on this issue regarding copyright at the moment.) I accept that if a company has invested in some development it feels gives them a competative edge over a rival then it will want to protect that investment. So the question becomes is the second company in this case a rival to the first? If not then where's the harm? And as a practical matter, unless every developer is given an amnesia pill at the end of their employment then they will always be taking some of a company's code with them when they leave. Usually not whole solutions, but code snippets and approaches (in their head at least). And all companies benefit from this when they hire experienced staff. I'm not saying what this person did wasn't wrong. It's not theft in the proper use of the term, but it *may* be harm. Any response should be based on how much. More specifically, if there is harm, or you think there may be harm, then flag this issue up with your line manager. That is your duty and responsibility as an employee.
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Dictatorships, generally speaking, arise where societal rules are applied haphazardly. One law, one punishment, without ambiguity or gradients of degree, can be effective. Things fall apart when we begin to assign shades or degrees to morality. That leads to the haphazard or unequal application of justice. There can be no grey, only stark contrasts, or we end up where you and I find ourselves now. We both realize that there is a “wrong”; we have a consensus there, just as the morality that I am thinking about is a consensus morality and not one established by an outside entity. We, you and I, are tripping over the what-to-do about it part of the problem. That is where another consensus must be established. My preference is toward the reduction of complexity and ambiguity in both our rules and our consequences.
I agree, the consensus to be reached is only the what to do about it. While I agree there must be punishment for morality deviation. I hardly beleive today we (me, you or justice system) can stablish the appropriate punishment. An easy example is how people are punished very differently in different nations. in some nations, people get their hand cut-off for stealing, in others 5 years of jail, while others will give 15 years... This goes on forever with different types of crimes and punishments (some I beleive are very cruel). Which one is the more appropriate? Really, I don't know. It's here where it comes individuality... Everyone will have a different opinion for what would be an apropriate punishment and I beleive we will never agree. In my heart and conscience I would NEVER ruin someone's life for stealing some code, specially if it does not do harm to anyone, or at least does not make anyone suffer. On the other other side, I will see the man who burned a child, burn the same way. Although I wouldn't be the one to light the fire. Reduction of complexity and ambiguity work very well in some cases. But my preference is that in a case like this, everything should be carefully analyzed, because pain might not hurt, until it reaches you. I beleive in charity, forgivness and kindness. As long as justice does not come in the way of those three, I beleive in that too. To me there is no way to reuce that complexity, it's far too easy to judge others. But I care about people and I couldn't do it just like that. I respect your opinion, just don't agree with it. [Edit] In this case what I would do is what I already said in the commment to the OP, as below: Before making your decision, consider these: 1 - It's possible that you might mess his life up real good, will you feel good about it? Has he done anything to you to deserve this? Not that I'm in favor of revenge, but maybe he doesn't even deserve it. 2 - Does this application compete with the one in your company? Is "his" application by any means interfering with your job / company 3 - What will you get by reporting him? If I were you, I'd talk to him (mail, phone, whatever) and tell him that I know about it, that I will not report him this time, but that he should be careful with this kind of stuff as he might be not so lucky next time. [/Edit]
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Following your argument to a conclusion; as long as I can get it out of your house, it's OK for me to steal all your stuff and the police shouldn't bother investigating because it's your fault for having a rubbish deterrent in place. Fine - just post your address please and I'll be round later with a van.
I have CDO, it's OCD with the letters in the right order; just as they ruddy well should be
Forgive your enemies - it messes with their heads
You guys are busting me up! ;P
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ChrisElston wrote:
My contract is very clear on that.
Never make contracts with the Devil. What I do at home is my business. Do you really think a company would take responsibility for anything happening outside the company ground/hours?
xacc.ide
IronScheme - 1.0 RC 1 - out now!
((λ (x) `(,x ',x)) '(λ (x) `(,x ',x))) The Scheme Programming Language – Fourth EditionSo, if I am working on a project or some code for the company at home during the night and I get hurt (it can happen), is the company responsible? Can I claim Workman's Compensation? Is it the same as an on the job injury? Is there a lawyer in the room?
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Do nothing because that is a loop hole which company should take care to protect the source code.
rahul
rah_sin wrote:
Do nothing because that is a loop hole which company should take care to protect the source code.
I like how this was marked as an "official" answer. :laugh:
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From the replies some people consider it theft. But is it? The first company isn't denied the use of the code simply because the second company has the same (or similar) code. (There is a whole philosophical debate raging on this issue regarding copyright at the moment.) I accept that if a company has invested in some development it feels gives them a competative edge over a rival then it will want to protect that investment. So the question becomes is the second company in this case a rival to the first? If not then where's the harm? And as a practical matter, unless every developer is given an amnesia pill at the end of their employment then they will always be taking some of a company's code with them when they leave. Usually not whole solutions, but code snippets and approaches (in their head at least). And all companies benefit from this when they hire experienced staff. I'm not saying what this person did wasn't wrong. It's not theft in the proper use of the term, but it *may* be harm. Any response should be based on how much. More specifically, if there is harm, or you think there may be harm, then flag this issue up with your line manager. That is your duty and responsibility as an employee.
I believe that the whole problem that we have all discussed is made more problematic by the nature of the creation. If our subject was a concern with a stapler that someone had allegedly stolen, even though there are millions of staplers just like the one in question, then we might react differently. They stole MY stapler, not one exactly like it, but MINE. The end use of the stolen stapler, to bind together slanderous and false allegations of theft perhaps, would be a totally separate issue. As, I think, is any attention to the end use of the stolen item. He stole my pistol. He drove nails with it at his summer cabin in the mountains. He stole my pistol! Because we concern ourselves with bits here in this realm, I think we fool ourselves into seeing a less dreadful problem (Yes, stealing staplers, and pistols, is a DREADFUL problem in this country :laugh: )! Is my code less valuable to me or to the owner, as a stapler or a pistol might be “valuable” for a given purpose, simply because I can’t hold it in my hand and hurt myself? Is the offense less egregious because my creation is made of bits? I think not. By the way, I just have to get me some of those amnesia pills. Then I will be able to forget about how much I have forgotten! :laugh:
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If you found out a ex-coworker took/stole some code from the company I still work for? (I always suspected this would happen, and now found a Silverlight app he claimed to have developed, obviously I had to look ;P ) While the section of code is trivial, the only thing he bothered to change was the namespace. The rest is pretty much identical, except for it going with EF vs Linq2SQL. - Should I report it? - Should I keep it with me as a possible future bargaining/blackmailing tool? - Should I send him an invoice for the time he wasted in my company* when he originally developed the piece of code*? - Do nothing - Blackmail him? * The one I am still working for. * I had to rewrite the whole thing anyways, as it was crap. The stolen code was what I wrote, in fact.
xacc.ide
IronScheme - 1.0 RC 1 - out now!
((λ (x) `(,x ',x)) '(λ (x) `(,x ',x))) The Scheme Programming Language – Fourth EditionSimple - report him to the company. Theft is theft. He was paid to write code for the company - not for himself. I understand that it can be difficult to separate certain bits of IP that one creates over a period of time, but there is a big difference between taking the concept of IP and re-using it vs. literally copying/pasting. When people do that and setup shop as competition how can someone even question the legal, let alone moral wrongs being done? I'm sure he's fine with the idea right up until he hires someone and they take off with "his" code.
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Euhemerus wrote:
Can you imagine Microsoft letting their developers have the ability to take their code home? Somehow, I can't.
why not? it is how they started after all!
You cant outrun the world, but there is no harm in getting a head start
Why not? Surely that's obvious. If Microsoft's developers could take code home, it wouldn't be too difficult, I wouldn't have thought, to get a complete copy of the Windows and/or Office source code. Imagine the uproar if that were leaked onto the Web by a disgruntled employee.
Nobody can get the truth out of me because even I don't know what it is. I keep myself in a constant state of utter confusion. - Col. Flagg
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If you found out a ex-coworker took/stole some code from the company I still work for? (I always suspected this would happen, and now found a Silverlight app he claimed to have developed, obviously I had to look ;P ) While the section of code is trivial, the only thing he bothered to change was the namespace. The rest is pretty much identical, except for it going with EF vs Linq2SQL. - Should I report it? - Should I keep it with me as a possible future bargaining/blackmailing tool? - Should I send him an invoice for the time he wasted in my company* when he originally developed the piece of code*? - Do nothing - Blackmail him? * The one I am still working for. * I had to rewrite the whole thing anyways, as it was crap. The stolen code was what I wrote, in fact.
xacc.ide
IronScheme - 1.0 RC 1 - out now!
((λ (x) `(,x ',x)) '(λ (x) `(,x ',x))) The Scheme Programming Language – Fourth EditionI seems that it should be OK to take code you write when you leave as long as: I does not contain any company trade secrets. I is not code developed by others not you. It is excerpted rather than copied where possible. It is not covered by work-for-hire contract clause complications. After all the code may be your credentials going forward with your career.
"Coding for fun and profit ... mostly fun"
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leppie wrote:
So you are saying the company has to get a warrant to search employee's homes for evidence of company property (code in this case) when they leave the company?
It shouldn't have got that far in the first place. The Company is obviously lax in guarding its intellectual property. Where I used to work, ANYTHING produced on a company computer was regarded by the Company as THEIR property. This was made plain in the contract of employment terms. No computer had a recordable CD/DVD drive, and USB ports were disabled. Also, all email went through a scrutinising process so that the chances of any company information actually leaving the company was miniscule. Can you imagine Microsoft letting their developers have the ability to take their code home? Somehow, I can't.
Nobody can get the truth out of me because even I don't know what it is. I keep myself in a constant state of utter confusion. - Col. Flagg
Wow, so you really think you can stop code from being stolen?? Several things come to mind. Mostly I wonder how much my productivity would be hampered by the inability to copy a file from one place to another. Now I work as an internal developer, but I copy files to a thumb drive to take to a user's desk sometimes. But even if that avenue was broken, can you really stop all forms of text from leaving the doors? I don't believe you can. Another thing to consider is that if the author can get the source code, then everyone in the world can get said source code. Then again, I am not sure how he can see the back end source.
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Wait, then who is? Everyone at the company is an employee. Are you saying that the only people who should care when someone steals from their company are the stockholders?
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Wow, so you really think you can stop code from being stolen?? Several things come to mind. Mostly I wonder how much my productivity would be hampered by the inability to copy a file from one place to another. Now I work as an internal developer, but I copy files to a thumb drive to take to a user's desk sometimes. But even if that avenue was broken, can you really stop all forms of text from leaving the doors? I don't believe you can. Another thing to consider is that if the author can get the source code, then everyone in the world can get said source code. Then again, I am not sure how he can see the back end source.
Kirk Wood wrote:
Mostly I wonder how much my productivity would be hampered by the inability to copy a file from one place to another
Err, it's saved on a company server....and accessed from there, ACLs ring any bells?
Kirk Wood wrote:
But even if that avenue was broken, can you really stop all forms of text from leaving the doors? I don't believe you can.
Off the top of my head, if you can't copy to any external media (cd, floppy, usb stick) that only leaves over the network. Any company worth its salt will have that covered as well. Ask yourself this question, how much proprietary software source code has been leaked onto the Internet? Are you really telling me that a disgruntled employee wouldn't leak if they could get a copy of it? These companies will have their source code well locked down. I'd be surprised if they were even allowed to print any of it. I don't even work in the IT/software industry, I'm an engineer with experience of working for a multinational bearing & steel company that very closely guards company information to the point of near paranoia.
Nobody can get the truth out of me because even I don't know what it is. I keep myself in a constant state of utter confusion. - Col. Flagg