Is this common everywhere?
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It is common everywhere but it is human nature that it is Microsoft. I've been in this business for 28 years before there was a Microsoft and someone ALWAYS has an opinion about something whether it makes sense or not. Back in the day when most of us were programming in FORTRAN I had a friend who could not understand why we were not programming in PL/1 (his favorite language). Explanations as to why you were not using PL/1 fell on deaf ears. Anyway, I use Microsoft tools when the client is a Microsoft shop and whatever else I need to use for other clients. It is whatever gets the job done. Whenever the religious zealots espouse their opinions I give them a pitying look and move on.
swmiller wrote:
Whenever the religious zealots espouse their opinions I give them a pitying look and move on.
You nailed it. Many people seem to "self-brainwash" and come to embrace a certain notion regardless of facts that contradict what they believe. Same with environmental fanatics, religious fanatics, political fanatics, so on and so forth.
Everybody SHUT UP until I finish my coffee...
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And there is a good reason. Although, many of their tools and technologies are great most are designed with a technician and a 2 year life-cycle in mind. ADO.NET and data readers solved most business software problems related to database handling. Yet, since 2001, how many technologies have spewed forth and how many, "frameworks" have leapt off the page to make this trivial concept easier? Worse, how many are no longer supported or in favor? Students need to learn the fundamental concepts of how to develop, not which button to click. Systems need to be maintainable 10 years down the road. MS isn't stupid; they provide both but the anti-MS crowd, for good reason, see the technician half and frown.
Need custom software developed? I do custom programming based primarily on MS tools with an emphasis on C# development and consulting. I also do Android Programming as I find it a refreshing break from the MS. "And they, since they Were not the one dead, turned to their affairs" -- Robert Frost
yet, your own signature indicates that you do 'custom software development based primarily on MS Tools with an emphasis on C# Development and consulting'. as spock would say...fascinating...
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Well, this is one my first posts here in the Lounge... I just wanted to expose a situation I find very often. And rant a little. Oh well. First, a disclaimer: I am currently working as a software developer in a mostly-Linux shop. We develop and maintain mission-critical systems for telecommunications. Naturally, most of work is done in C++ using vi and emacs in remote terminals. So I have no problems working with either C++, Linux, Windows or C# (which is my personal favorite). For me it is just a question of working with different tools to get the job done. But the problem is: very often I find people who seems to be completely anti-Microsoft. They would refuse to use any Microsoft technology, and when questioned why, they would just reply: "Because it is from Microsoft". It would be OK if they said: "It didn't attend our needs", "It does not have feature X", or "we needed true platform independence" (which sometimes just isn't true, as platform independence is used only as a marketing feature). But the only reason I hear is that it was not even considered because "it was from Microsoft". How could that be? By the way, in one of the most prestigiated universities here, students are supposed to know Linux and only Linux. They aren't even allowed to be creative in their user interfaces, because most of the exercises are corrected by an automated system which simply pass things to the input of a student's program and waits for an expected output. It is like if Linux and open-source software were the only truth they would need in life. For me, this whole anti-Microsoft, pro-free software fanatism is just ridiculous. I use free and open-source software, but I also use commercial ones. I actually develop free and open-source software, but I also work on a commercial one. There are people out there who thinks anything that comes from a commercial corporation is evil and should be avoided at all costs, even if this implies using sub-optimal software just because it is "libre". I don't even dare anymore to explain why my preferred language is C# to those people. When they ask, they aren't really interested in the answer. They just get amused because, in their own closed mind, anything Microsoft must suck. So, does this happen in the rest of the world as well? How do you deal with it?
Interested in Machine Learning in .NET? Check the Accord.NET Framework. See also
I beleive is just how you said: "closed mind". Closed mind people, or how I prefer to say, "squared mind" people are less likely to evolve because they don't accept new ideas, specially if it competes with their current ideas. They are unwilling to hear valid arguments even if they are true and correct. I think this kind of stubborn behaviour is just what might keep them down from evolving. But see in the bright side, if it weren't for them, people like us would have less chance to stand out from the crowd. I work at a company dominated by JAVA, I'm the ONLY employee (from more than 150) currently assigned to a .net project. So imagine how much of anti-microsoft, biased comments I hear around here. Despite no liking JAVA (there are some limitations there I don't have in C#, and a lot of other stuff...), I still would considering it depending on the project and, if the company I work for, needed me for JAVA I wouldn't simply turn it down. As once Francis Picabia said: "Our heads are round so our thoughts can change direction." To me the same kind of people that say this stuff of microsft products/technologies are usually the same people who say: "The cheaper, the better", "If it works, don't fix (improve) it", "If it does not bother me, I don't need to do anything about it." When I lived in US (for a year, in high school) I also saw a lot of that kind of stuff, not because americans are more close minded, but because most of the kids (I was 17 years old, on high school) don't really see what's surrounding their world (and ours) until they get to college. And often because they have a more strict education than I see around here. They were much more conservartive and it was more difficult to me to expose some liberal ideas. I think it happens all around the world. In some places more than others, but I beleive that in every culture this kind of thought is present.
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Because there was a time, 10 years ago or so, when hating Microsoft was trendy and all the cool kids did it. These are the same ones that hate Microsoft now. They just don't realize it isn't cool anymore. Microsoft has some GREAT products, great tools. And if they don't use them because they are from "Microsoft", then it doesn't say much about them. I don't hate anything I haven't used, and used it enough to know it good enough. That's just blind hate, "just because". I wouldn't listen to any of their advice, their opinions would have no merit. They have nothing to back up their claims... That said, there are times when I choose Linux and other open source projects because they are the right TOOL for the job. It's like saying you don't like Craftsman because they are Sears, you'll only buy Mac or Snap-On (ok, bad analogy... Snap-On and Mac are superior). Same screwdriver, gets the same job done.
PC509 wrote:
I don't hate anything I haven't used
I wish I could say this about food... I'll never try a shrimp X|
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PC509 wrote:
I don't hate anything I haven't used
I wish I could say this about food... I'll never try a shrimp X|
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Well, this is one my first posts here in the Lounge... I just wanted to expose a situation I find very often. And rant a little. Oh well. First, a disclaimer: I am currently working as a software developer in a mostly-Linux shop. We develop and maintain mission-critical systems for telecommunications. Naturally, most of work is done in C++ using vi and emacs in remote terminals. So I have no problems working with either C++, Linux, Windows or C# (which is my personal favorite). For me it is just a question of working with different tools to get the job done. But the problem is: very often I find people who seems to be completely anti-Microsoft. They would refuse to use any Microsoft technology, and when questioned why, they would just reply: "Because it is from Microsoft". It would be OK if they said: "It didn't attend our needs", "It does not have feature X", or "we needed true platform independence" (which sometimes just isn't true, as platform independence is used only as a marketing feature). But the only reason I hear is that it was not even considered because "it was from Microsoft". How could that be? By the way, in one of the most prestigiated universities here, students are supposed to know Linux and only Linux. They aren't even allowed to be creative in their user interfaces, because most of the exercises are corrected by an automated system which simply pass things to the input of a student's program and waits for an expected output. It is like if Linux and open-source software were the only truth they would need in life. For me, this whole anti-Microsoft, pro-free software fanatism is just ridiculous. I use free and open-source software, but I also use commercial ones. I actually develop free and open-source software, but I also work on a commercial one. There are people out there who thinks anything that comes from a commercial corporation is evil and should be avoided at all costs, even if this implies using sub-optimal software just because it is "libre". I don't even dare anymore to explain why my preferred language is C# to those people. When they ask, they aren't really interested in the answer. They just get amused because, in their own closed mind, anything Microsoft must suck. So, does this happen in the rest of the world as well? How do you deal with it?
Interested in Machine Learning in .NET? Check the Accord.NET Framework. See also
I hate Microsoft (and also others), but am pragmatic enough to use whatever is best for the job. I can give my reasons: 1. I like to know that I CAN know what is under the covers. 2. I like to share my knowledge, for the betterment of the world, and to make sure that my knowledge doesn't disappear, because a company has gone out of business or given up on a product. 3. If there is a bug, I either want to be able to fix it myself, or know that the vendor will fix it. I have waited for years for fixes to Microsoft bugs while doing ridiculous workarounds. Microsoft official support is too often worthless, and I use the same venues to work around (you can't fix them) Microsoft bugs as I do open-source. 4. If I lose my job and need to keep up my skills, or decide to try to start a business on a string, it will have to be Linux, because I couldn't afford Microsoft products in those instances. 5. I like my freedom. I don't like a company forcing bad software down my throat. I have run into too many instances of having to work harder and write ugly code to get things to work in a Microsoft environment. I also don't like to have to rewrite what I've already written, because Microsoft has suddenly made what I wrote obsolete. 6. I like interoperability. Too many times, Microsoft has assumed the 800 pound gorilla stance and tried to set their own standards, rather than cooperating with the rest of the programming world. This takes away all of the joy of writing code for systems that must communicate with each other. 7. While there are many who hate Microsoft, there are just as many in influential positions who won't use anything else, because they trust big companies and big money more than small-time coders and free products. Those people keep Microsoft as the monopoly it is, force me to accept products that aren't the most optimal, and prevent me from working with my other ideals.
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I'll try anything. I'm a little scared to try Rocky Mountain Oysters... But, I want to just to do it. :) Shrimps aren't that bad, if you like seafood. I love shrimp. Most shrimp. Some tastes bad, though.
Hehehe, I like most sea food, except oysters and shrimps... Never really tried any of those two and I don't see myself trying. Gives me goose bumps. I think it's the smell for shrimp (and the little antennas) and for oyster, well, it's ugly just to look (at least the kinds I know). It's weird the appearence of food matter to me... I don't like* ugly food :)
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Well, this is one my first posts here in the Lounge... I just wanted to expose a situation I find very often. And rant a little. Oh well. First, a disclaimer: I am currently working as a software developer in a mostly-Linux shop. We develop and maintain mission-critical systems for telecommunications. Naturally, most of work is done in C++ using vi and emacs in remote terminals. So I have no problems working with either C++, Linux, Windows or C# (which is my personal favorite). For me it is just a question of working with different tools to get the job done. But the problem is: very often I find people who seems to be completely anti-Microsoft. They would refuse to use any Microsoft technology, and when questioned why, they would just reply: "Because it is from Microsoft". It would be OK if they said: "It didn't attend our needs", "It does not have feature X", or "we needed true platform independence" (which sometimes just isn't true, as platform independence is used only as a marketing feature). But the only reason I hear is that it was not even considered because "it was from Microsoft". How could that be? By the way, in one of the most prestigiated universities here, students are supposed to know Linux and only Linux. They aren't even allowed to be creative in their user interfaces, because most of the exercises are corrected by an automated system which simply pass things to the input of a student's program and waits for an expected output. It is like if Linux and open-source software were the only truth they would need in life. For me, this whole anti-Microsoft, pro-free software fanatism is just ridiculous. I use free and open-source software, but I also use commercial ones. I actually develop free and open-source software, but I also work on a commercial one. There are people out there who thinks anything that comes from a commercial corporation is evil and should be avoided at all costs, even if this implies using sub-optimal software just because it is "libre". I don't even dare anymore to explain why my preferred language is C# to those people. When they ask, they aren't really interested in the answer. They just get amused because, in their own closed mind, anything Microsoft must suck. So, does this happen in the rest of the world as well? How do you deal with it?
Interested in Machine Learning in .NET? Check the Accord.NET Framework. See also
To answer the original question, all IT shops I've worked contain a certain number of java and open source fanboys. I find that those who really get stuck on what platform to perform their development upon lose sight of the fact that IT/IS departments exist to serve their business. So, here is some news for code zealots... business users could care less about what platform you've built your widget on as long as you provide a solution to their problem and as long as it meets their current requirements. So, if your users don't care about platform and if you have multiple options for development platforms then it really just comes down to cost. If you sit two developers down to provide the same solution with the same level of experience and one can do it in 4 weeks and the other can do it in 6 then you just identified the best option. I would argue that the platform independence, intropability, flexibility and maintainability that tools Microsoft provides cost less and are just as stable and perform just as well as any other platform out there. Only people who don't regularly use Microsoft tools typically argue with this point... which means they don't really know what they are missing. To address the cost factor up front before some naive coder tells me that Microsoft is too expensive I'll say this... on a development project what is the most expensive item on the project? Don't think too hard... really. Its the developer. The argument that, because Microsoft is a 'commercial' platform that it costs too much is misguided. If I can finish a project in 4 weeks and it takes you 6 then 2 weeks of salary just went down the drain. With at 2 weeks of salary saved, I could afford my MSDN subscription, buy pizza for the project team and take a short vacation. Then, because there is such a broad base of Microsoft skills, the person who comes in 2 years later should be able to update my code... and also, take a short vacation. In fact, I think I just need a vacation. Thanks for offering.
Joel Palmer Data Integration Engineer
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Well, this is one my first posts here in the Lounge... I just wanted to expose a situation I find very often. And rant a little. Oh well. First, a disclaimer: I am currently working as a software developer in a mostly-Linux shop. We develop and maintain mission-critical systems for telecommunications. Naturally, most of work is done in C++ using vi and emacs in remote terminals. So I have no problems working with either C++, Linux, Windows or C# (which is my personal favorite). For me it is just a question of working with different tools to get the job done. But the problem is: very often I find people who seems to be completely anti-Microsoft. They would refuse to use any Microsoft technology, and when questioned why, they would just reply: "Because it is from Microsoft". It would be OK if they said: "It didn't attend our needs", "It does not have feature X", or "we needed true platform independence" (which sometimes just isn't true, as platform independence is used only as a marketing feature). But the only reason I hear is that it was not even considered because "it was from Microsoft". How could that be? By the way, in one of the most prestigiated universities here, students are supposed to know Linux and only Linux. They aren't even allowed to be creative in their user interfaces, because most of the exercises are corrected by an automated system which simply pass things to the input of a student's program and waits for an expected output. It is like if Linux and open-source software were the only truth they would need in life. For me, this whole anti-Microsoft, pro-free software fanatism is just ridiculous. I use free and open-source software, but I also use commercial ones. I actually develop free and open-source software, but I also work on a commercial one. There are people out there who thinks anything that comes from a commercial corporation is evil and should be avoided at all costs, even if this implies using sub-optimal software just because it is "libre". I don't even dare anymore to explain why my preferred language is C# to those people. When they ask, they aren't really interested in the answer. They just get amused because, in their own closed mind, anything Microsoft must suck. So, does this happen in the rest of the world as well? How do you deal with it?
Interested in Machine Learning in .NET? Check the Accord.NET Framework. See also
There is actually a semi-valid reason for saying "because it's Microsoft". I used to be a Microsoft basher too. The reason was not so simple as "it doesn't have feature X". It was more nebulous - like Microsoft, through shady/illegal business practices, bullied their way into being ubiquitous, and then wasn't responsible enough to put out high-enough quality and secure software. They didn't respond well to user complaints or developer questions, because they didn't have to. This pissed a lot of people off. Yes, their C++ compiler had some bugs and implemented some things wrong, but it wasn't just application Y, it was a pattern that repeated. So it got a bad reputation. Having said all that, I've changed my opinion because I find Visual Studio 2008/2010, C# and .NET 3.5/4.0 a very good platform to develop with. They have made more of an effort to improve things. Consider .NET Entity Framework 4.0 improving on 3.0. I've read more than one story of a dev shop using NHibernate (open source) because EF 3.0 was insufficient, and then switching back to EF 4.0 because it was better than NHibernate.
modified on Thursday, October 28, 2010 1:55 PM
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Well, this is one my first posts here in the Lounge... I just wanted to expose a situation I find very often. And rant a little. Oh well. First, a disclaimer: I am currently working as a software developer in a mostly-Linux shop. We develop and maintain mission-critical systems for telecommunications. Naturally, most of work is done in C++ using vi and emacs in remote terminals. So I have no problems working with either C++, Linux, Windows or C# (which is my personal favorite). For me it is just a question of working with different tools to get the job done. But the problem is: very often I find people who seems to be completely anti-Microsoft. They would refuse to use any Microsoft technology, and when questioned why, they would just reply: "Because it is from Microsoft". It would be OK if they said: "It didn't attend our needs", "It does not have feature X", or "we needed true platform independence" (which sometimes just isn't true, as platform independence is used only as a marketing feature). But the only reason I hear is that it was not even considered because "it was from Microsoft". How could that be? By the way, in one of the most prestigiated universities here, students are supposed to know Linux and only Linux. They aren't even allowed to be creative in their user interfaces, because most of the exercises are corrected by an automated system which simply pass things to the input of a student's program and waits for an expected output. It is like if Linux and open-source software were the only truth they would need in life. For me, this whole anti-Microsoft, pro-free software fanatism is just ridiculous. I use free and open-source software, but I also use commercial ones. I actually develop free and open-source software, but I also work on a commercial one. There are people out there who thinks anything that comes from a commercial corporation is evil and should be avoided at all costs, even if this implies using sub-optimal software just because it is "libre". I don't even dare anymore to explain why my preferred language is C# to those people. When they ask, they aren't really interested in the answer. They just get amused because, in their own closed mind, anything Microsoft must suck. So, does this happen in the rest of the world as well? How do you deal with it?
Interested in Machine Learning in .NET? Check the Accord.NET Framework. See also
Dear Cesar: Welcome to the world of Computers !! Truth is what you see around you is very much alike anywhere over the world. I started as programmer in 1973. I am talking about FORTRAN, PL1, Pascal. At the time, we dispised guys programming in COBOL, because it was for BUSINESS !!!!-can you believe how misguided we were ????-and we considered ourselves-each of us- some sort of geniouses and the more difficult the programming language was, the better our ego felt, although it was really painful to master the language.At the time we were called systems engineers, because we really were.We had to deeply and in an integrated way analyze a system before we mechanized it/computerized it. We had to write the code entirely by ourselves, optimized it-memory capacity at the time was microscopic by today standards.The de-bugging process was entirely by hand, hundreds of pages spread on the floor, checking command line by line. Before you fall asleep with this boring/jurassic story, i will tell you that most of what you see around you, is about sore egos. Bill Gates and Steve Jobs-giant egos themselves-dared to make a lot of money simplifying computing enough to reach normal, standard people. Their genious showed when they saw the opportunity to change the world not through us, geeks, but through the common guy. And through the commom guy they reach the gold pot.....the BUSINESS OWNERS, who needed tools to simplify their common people employees and make them much more efficient or at least effective. I used to work for the government, military and private companies. I used to work in mainframes-IBM & Burroughs-AppleTalk,Ethernet, wireless, microwave, satellite, HF,Citrix, VPN networks, security-physical & electronic-, Business continuity & Recovery, telephony-PBX & IP-, Data Centers,Backup Ops.,university professor, etc. Therefore, i seen the same you see around. In my humble opinion, you have master the profession or are about to, when you said that using open source or commencial/propietary is a matter of choosing the right tool to solve the problem at hand in the most efficient way, which generally is the most economical way. Here lies the secret.....ECONOMIC WAY ! Bill Gates and Steve Jobs saw this clearly and made inmense fortunes in the process. The secret of our profession lies knowing several OS:Windows, Linux, OS. You should know several programming languages:assembly, C, Java, PHP. And you should be familiar with the Security, Network and Telecommunications fundamentals, if you want to fully understand the nature
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Dear Cesar: Welcome to the world of Computers !! Truth is what you see around you is very much alike anywhere over the world. I started as programmer in 1973. I am talking about FORTRAN, PL1, Pascal. At the time, we dispised guys programming in COBOL, because it was for BUSINESS !!!!-can you believe how misguided we were ????-and we considered ourselves-each of us- some sort of geniouses and the more difficult the programming language was, the better our ego felt, although it was really painful to master the language.At the time we were called systems engineers, because we really were.We had to deeply and in an integrated way analyze a system before we mechanized it/computerized it. We had to write the code entirely by ourselves, optimized it-memory capacity at the time was microscopic by today standards.The de-bugging process was entirely by hand, hundreds of pages spread on the floor, checking command line by line. Before you fall asleep with this boring/jurassic story, i will tell you that most of what you see around you, is about sore egos. Bill Gates and Steve Jobs-giant egos themselves-dared to make a lot of money simplifying computing enough to reach normal, standard people. Their genious showed when they saw the opportunity to change the world not through us, geeks, but through the common guy. And through the commom guy they reach the gold pot.....the BUSINESS OWNERS, who needed tools to simplify their common people employees and make them much more efficient or at least effective. I used to work for the government, military and private companies. I used to work in mainframes-IBM & Burroughs-AppleTalk,Ethernet, wireless, microwave, satellite, HF,Citrix, VPN networks, security-physical & electronic-, Business continuity & Recovery, telephony-PBX & IP-, Data Centers,Backup Ops.,university professor, etc. Therefore, i seen the same you see around. In my humble opinion, you have master the profession or are about to, when you said that using open source or commencial/propietary is a matter of choosing the right tool to solve the problem at hand in the most efficient way, which generally is the most economical way. Here lies the secret.....ECONOMIC WAY ! Bill Gates and Steve Jobs saw this clearly and made inmense fortunes in the process. The secret of our profession lies knowing several OS:Windows, Linux, OS. You should know several programming languages:assembly, C, Java, PHP. And you should be familiar with the Security, Network and Telecommunications fundamentals, if you want to fully understand the nature
Dante, your post is basically unreadable. It's like trying to figure out what's in a Word doc by reading it with Notepad. Just sayin', in case you want someone to ever pay attention to you....
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Well, this is one my first posts here in the Lounge... I just wanted to expose a situation I find very often. And rant a little. Oh well. First, a disclaimer: I am currently working as a software developer in a mostly-Linux shop. We develop and maintain mission-critical systems for telecommunications. Naturally, most of work is done in C++ using vi and emacs in remote terminals. So I have no problems working with either C++, Linux, Windows or C# (which is my personal favorite). For me it is just a question of working with different tools to get the job done. But the problem is: very often I find people who seems to be completely anti-Microsoft. They would refuse to use any Microsoft technology, and when questioned why, they would just reply: "Because it is from Microsoft". It would be OK if they said: "It didn't attend our needs", "It does not have feature X", or "we needed true platform independence" (which sometimes just isn't true, as platform independence is used only as a marketing feature). But the only reason I hear is that it was not even considered because "it was from Microsoft". How could that be? By the way, in one of the most prestigiated universities here, students are supposed to know Linux and only Linux. They aren't even allowed to be creative in their user interfaces, because most of the exercises are corrected by an automated system which simply pass things to the input of a student's program and waits for an expected output. It is like if Linux and open-source software were the only truth they would need in life. For me, this whole anti-Microsoft, pro-free software fanatism is just ridiculous. I use free and open-source software, but I also use commercial ones. I actually develop free and open-source software, but I also work on a commercial one. There are people out there who thinks anything that comes from a commercial corporation is evil and should be avoided at all costs, even if this implies using sub-optimal software just because it is "libre". I don't even dare anymore to explain why my preferred language is C# to those people. When they ask, they aren't really interested in the answer. They just get amused because, in their own closed mind, anything Microsoft must suck. So, does this happen in the rest of the world as well? How do you deal with it?
Interested in Machine Learning in .NET? Check the Accord.NET Framework. See also
I was one of those who disliked microsoft because it is microsoft. At the time I switched to linux, I switched for many reasons, top 2 are A. I didn't care for microsoft's business tactics. I don't support anything gates did with i.e. or the license agreement to sell microsoft products and I don't agree with ballmer, just don't like the corportate idiot. MS support was crappy, costly and useless. If you don't agree with the system, why support the system by using the products/giving them money and attention? B. microsoft technologies weren't even close to good enough, C# was still in v1 or v2. I tried v1 and didn't fall in love with it then. The microsoft API has always been wtf? I could never get used to it... I felt that it was really hacked together. Windows XP had just came around and I didn't like it, tired of the crap with it. The linux api was easier to deal with and felt more natural and easily understandable, none of the tools cost an arm and a leg, I had way more choices open to me on what I could do with linux. Linux's openness and the intelligence behind the tools and api and ease of learning (I learned to code on some old unix systems originally) was more to my style. I quickly found that with linux, I wasn't missing much, except games... and that's still true today. I just fell in love with it (and still love it to this day). Linux allows a startup to startup with less cash upfront, less time invested in learning (if you know unix and if you went to a good uni, you should understand it), less problems, less security overhead, less computational power required and scalability is awesome. Support is awesome also. These are the reasons became a "I hate microsh*t" and "windon't do *" person. It was a clear difference in philosophy's. The easiest way to deal with me was to just ignore me and let it go. After a quick rant I would just stop, I said my peace. I talk in past tense because today I'm back to using ms technologies and have fallen in love with c# v4, .NET and linq, but honestly I wouldn't use it in a professional project because they aren't that great for cross platform use. I like products that reach all the people, not some of the people (I prefer desktop development to web and phone development), for this, Qt is probably the best to reach everyone in *nix, windows and mac worlds (Java swig is a pain and annoying). In web (ui is cross platform by default), open source products again allow the more secure system and better use of resources (though just a quick note, I don't use php for
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Well, this is one my first posts here in the Lounge... I just wanted to expose a situation I find very often. And rant a little. Oh well. First, a disclaimer: I am currently working as a software developer in a mostly-Linux shop. We develop and maintain mission-critical systems for telecommunications. Naturally, most of work is done in C++ using vi and emacs in remote terminals. So I have no problems working with either C++, Linux, Windows or C# (which is my personal favorite). For me it is just a question of working with different tools to get the job done. But the problem is: very often I find people who seems to be completely anti-Microsoft. They would refuse to use any Microsoft technology, and when questioned why, they would just reply: "Because it is from Microsoft". It would be OK if they said: "It didn't attend our needs", "It does not have feature X", or "we needed true platform independence" (which sometimes just isn't true, as platform independence is used only as a marketing feature). But the only reason I hear is that it was not even considered because "it was from Microsoft". How could that be? By the way, in one of the most prestigiated universities here, students are supposed to know Linux and only Linux. They aren't even allowed to be creative in their user interfaces, because most of the exercises are corrected by an automated system which simply pass things to the input of a student's program and waits for an expected output. It is like if Linux and open-source software were the only truth they would need in life. For me, this whole anti-Microsoft, pro-free software fanatism is just ridiculous. I use free and open-source software, but I also use commercial ones. I actually develop free and open-source software, but I also work on a commercial one. There are people out there who thinks anything that comes from a commercial corporation is evil and should be avoided at all costs, even if this implies using sub-optimal software just because it is "libre". I don't even dare anymore to explain why my preferred language is C# to those people. When they ask, they aren't really interested in the answer. They just get amused because, in their own closed mind, anything Microsoft must suck. So, does this happen in the rest of the world as well? How do you deal with it?
Interested in Machine Learning in .NET? Check the Accord.NET Framework. See also
It isn't so much that I hate Microsoft, as I hate buggy poorly written software that gives me no end of hassle. I also dislike paying exorbitant fees for same said software. If I'm given a choice between using two buggy poorly written software, I'll choose the one that is free. If one works dramatically better and costs only a little money, I'll often choose that. It really comes down to me being cheap for most things.
ragnaroknrol: Yes, but comparing a rabid wolverine gnawing on your face while stabbing you with a fountain pen to Vista is likely to make the wolverine look good, so it isn't exactly that big of a compliment.
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Dante, your post is basically unreadable. It's like trying to figure out what's in a Word doc by reading it with Notepad. Just sayin', in case you want someone to ever pay attention to you....
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To answer the original question, all IT shops I've worked contain a certain number of java and open source fanboys. I find that those who really get stuck on what platform to perform their development upon lose sight of the fact that IT/IS departments exist to serve their business. So, here is some news for code zealots... business users could care less about what platform you've built your widget on as long as you provide a solution to their problem and as long as it meets their current requirements. So, if your users don't care about platform and if you have multiple options for development platforms then it really just comes down to cost. If you sit two developers down to provide the same solution with the same level of experience and one can do it in 4 weeks and the other can do it in 6 then you just identified the best option. I would argue that the platform independence, intropability, flexibility and maintainability that tools Microsoft provides cost less and are just as stable and perform just as well as any other platform out there. Only people who don't regularly use Microsoft tools typically argue with this point... which means they don't really know what they are missing. To address the cost factor up front before some naive coder tells me that Microsoft is too expensive I'll say this... on a development project what is the most expensive item on the project? Don't think too hard... really. Its the developer. The argument that, because Microsoft is a 'commercial' platform that it costs too much is misguided. If I can finish a project in 4 weeks and it takes you 6 then 2 weeks of salary just went down the drain. With at 2 weeks of salary saved, I could afford my MSDN subscription, buy pizza for the project team and take a short vacation. Then, because there is such a broad base of Microsoft skills, the person who comes in 2 years later should be able to update my code... and also, take a short vacation. In fact, I think I just need a vacation. Thanks for offering.
Joel Palmer Data Integration Engineer
Joel@Novaspect wrote:
I would argue that the platform independence, intropability, flexibility and maintainability that tools Microsoft provides cost less and are just as stable and perform just as well as any other platform out there. Only people who don't regularly use Microsoft tools typically argue with this point... which means they don't really know what they are missing. To address the cost factor up front before some naive coder tells me that Microsoft is too expensive I'll say this... on a development project what is the most expensive item on the project? Don't think too hard... really. Its the developer. The argument that, because Microsoft is a 'commercial' platform that it costs too much is misguided. If I can finish a project in 4 weeks and it takes you 6 then 2 weeks of salary just went down the drain. With at 2 weeks of salary saved, I could afford my MSDN subscription, buy pizza for the project team and take a short vacation. Then, because there is such a broad base of Microsoft skills, the person who comes in 2 years later should be able to update my code... and also, take a short vacation.
Excellent words. Thanks.
Interested in Machine Learning in .NET? Check the Accord.NET Framework. See also Handwriting Recognition Revisited: Kernel Support Vector Machines
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Joel@Novaspect wrote:
I would argue that the platform independence, intropability, flexibility and maintainability that tools Microsoft provides cost less and are just as stable and perform just as well as any other platform out there. Only people who don't regularly use Microsoft tools typically argue with this point... which means they don't really know what they are missing. To address the cost factor up front before some naive coder tells me that Microsoft is too expensive I'll say this... on a development project what is the most expensive item on the project? Don't think too hard... really. Its the developer. The argument that, because Microsoft is a 'commercial' platform that it costs too much is misguided. If I can finish a project in 4 weeks and it takes you 6 then 2 weeks of salary just went down the drain. With at 2 weeks of salary saved, I could afford my MSDN subscription, buy pizza for the project team and take a short vacation. Then, because there is such a broad base of Microsoft skills, the person who comes in 2 years later should be able to update my code... and also, take a short vacation.
Excellent words. Thanks.
Interested in Machine Learning in .NET? Check the Accord.NET Framework. See also Handwriting Recognition Revisited: Kernel Support Vector Machines
Sorry, Joel's on vacation right now and cannot respond to this message. :-D
Joel Palmer Data Integration Engineer
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Jeff: My apoligies for the writting style or lack thereoff k Thank you very much for the advice k i will re-do it k BT. Dante
Must... find... white-space.
Joel Palmer Data Integration Engineer
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My question is this: why is there still such a disconnect between the academic world and the professional world? I work with C# and .NET all day long. That's not to say I love .NET all of the time, but it does get the job done quite often. It puts food on the table for my family. I've taken CS classes at two different universities. One university focused more on the practical and business side of programming. The other was very academic. I understand the importance of learning assembly and other such topics in academics, but the "software development" class I took was so mathematical and so far away from anything I ever do in the professional world. I say that because I was working full-time doing development while taking this class. Why haven't some CS departments put more focus on the professional aspect of development?
At my university (20 years ago)... Computer Science was a B.S. (science) degree that with a few extra electives could launch an Engineering (P.E.) career path. Data structures, OS design, compiler design, language design/parsing, etc. MIS was a B.A. (business) degree, Basic, COBOL, using IBM mainframes, systems administration, etc. 2 very different approaches. I think the same still holds true at my alma mater today. Current day, I work with a few, technical C.S. style people that support a bunch of MIS programmers. Some of the MIS code is not the most efficient, but until something REALLY needs tuning, why worry about it.
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Dante, your post is basically unreadable. It's like trying to figure out what's in a Word doc by reading it with Notepad. Just sayin', in case you want someone to ever pay attention to you....
Dear Cesar: Welcome to the world of Computers…truth is what you see around you is very much alike anywhere over the world. I started as programmer in 1973. I am talking about FORTRAN, PL1, and Pascal. At the time, we despised guys programming in COBOL, because it was for BUSINESS… can you believe how misguided we were???? We considered ourselves-each of us- some sort of geniuses and the more difficult the programming language was, the better our ego felt, although it was really painful to master the language. At the time we were called systems engineers, because we really were. We had to deeply and in an integrated way analyze a system before we mechanized it/computerized it. We had to write the code entirely by ourselves and super-optimized it, because memory capacity at the time was microscopic by today standards. The de-bugging process was entirely by hand, hundreds of pages spread on the floor, checking command line by line. Before you fall asleep with this boring story, i will tell you that most of what you see around you, is about sore egos. Bill Gates and Steve Jobs, giant egos themselves, dared to make a lot of money simplifying computing enough to reach normal, standard people. Their genius showed when they saw the opportunity to change the world not through us, geeks, but through the common guy. Through the common guy they reach the gold pot.....the BUSINESS OWNERS, who needed tools to simplify their common people employees and make them much more efficient or at least effective. I used to work for the government, military and private companies. Therefore, i seen the same you see around. In my humble opinion, you have master the profession or are about to, when you said that using open source or commencial/propietary is a matter of choosing the right tool to solve the problem at hand in the most efficient way, which generally is the most economical way. Here lies the secret..... ECONOMIC WAY ! Bill Gates and Steve Jobs saw this clearly and made immense fortunes in the process. The secret of our profession lies knowing several OS: Windows, Linux and OSx. You should know several programming languages: assembly, C, Java, and PHP. You should be familiar with the Security, Network and Telecommunications fundamentals, if you want to fully understand the nature of Cyber Space.....the NEW WORLD. My people always managed themselves by the " La forza dei fatti " -The force of the facts saying. It means we cannot deny the fact that proprietary code-Microsoft & Appl
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Must... find... white-space.
Joel Palmer Data Integration Engineer