Is this common everywhere?
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César de Souza wrote:
So, does this happen in the rest of the world as well?
Yes, lots, just talk to anyone who has a Mac.
Just say 'NO' to evaluated arguments for diadic functions! Ash
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Bruce Patin wrote:
1. I like to know that I CAN know what is under the covers.
I know for a fact that the .Net API for email uses a cached connection. I know that because I looked at the code. I do not want ever look at the TCP stack for windows. Nor Linux. So exactly how is that different than what you do?
Bruce Patin wrote:
2. I like to share my knowledge, for the betterment of the world, and to make sure that my knowledge doesn't disappear, because a company has gone out of business or given up on a product.
I like getting paid to work. And thankfully the companies that I work for like getting paid for what they produce so that they can continue to pay me for working. That is true of the shops that I have worked for that do windows and those that do linux as well. And since I am almost always in a work for hire position what I produce is not mine to keep regardless of the companies situation (still around or bankrupt). And almost all companies are the same except those that specifically target open source products. And that is a difference in product space and has nothing to do with platforms - with ActiveState being a prime example.
Bruce Patin wrote:
. If there is a bug, I either want to be able to fix it myself, or know that the vendor will fix it. I have waited for years for fixes to Microsoft bugs while doing ridiculous workarounds. Microsoft official support is too often worthless, and I use the same venues to work around (you can't fix them) Microsoft bugs as I do open-source.
I produce products with delivery dates. I don't have time to wait for even open source delivery cycles especially those with a large developer base. So work arounds are a fact of life.
Bruce Patin wrote:
4. If I lose my job and need to keep up my skills, or decide to try to start a business on a string, it will have to be Linux, because I couldn't afford Microsoft products in those instances.
Exactly how long are you planning on being unemployed and actively keeping up your skill sets? Exactly what skill sets do you think would decay due to a lack of the newest release to such an extreme degree that you couldn't get a job? What experience set do you have such that if you were not unemployed for a long period that the skill set itself, not recent usage
I was unemployed once for 9 months. During that time, I took on a few small contract jobs, but had to turn some down, because I did not have access to the kind of systems I needed to test my work, and couldn't afford at that time to buy or get access to them. I don't have time to respond to all of your replies. Let's just say that I am a bit of an idealist. Also, after I wrote this post, I realized that what I most hate about Microsoft is not that their "standards" were different, but that they deliberately made them different several times to keep competitors from encroaching on their monopoly, in fact killing the competitor's business. This not only makes programming more difficult and time-consuming, for which I would not expect to get paid more, but decreases customer choices, and the choices I can offer to my customers. Their exclusive deals with distributors also props up their monopoly, and I basically see them as the backyard bully. As far as keeping up with changes, with every release of Visual Studio and .NET, there has always been some code changes I have had to make. I dislike that SQL Server Reporting Services is almost never in sync, requiring that I keep two versions of Visual Studio installed to work on what should be one solution. In spite of this, I agree that Java is a bit worse than .NET. Microsoft does occasionally do things right. And the last thing I hate, is every time Bill Gates lies about "innovation", which Microsoft does not generally do, to justify government support for his unethical business practices.
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Well, this is one my first posts here in the Lounge... I just wanted to expose a situation I find very often. And rant a little. Oh well. First, a disclaimer: I am currently working as a software developer in a mostly-Linux shop. We develop and maintain mission-critical systems for telecommunications. Naturally, most of work is done in C++ using vi and emacs in remote terminals. So I have no problems working with either C++, Linux, Windows or C# (which is my personal favorite). For me it is just a question of working with different tools to get the job done. But the problem is: very often I find people who seems to be completely anti-Microsoft. They would refuse to use any Microsoft technology, and when questioned why, they would just reply: "Because it is from Microsoft". It would be OK if they said: "It didn't attend our needs", "It does not have feature X", or "we needed true platform independence" (which sometimes just isn't true, as platform independence is used only as a marketing feature). But the only reason I hear is that it was not even considered because "it was from Microsoft". How could that be? By the way, in one of the most prestigiated universities here, students are supposed to know Linux and only Linux. They aren't even allowed to be creative in their user interfaces, because most of the exercises are corrected by an automated system which simply pass things to the input of a student's program and waits for an expected output. It is like if Linux and open-source software were the only truth they would need in life. For me, this whole anti-Microsoft, pro-free software fanatism is just ridiculous. I use free and open-source software, but I also use commercial ones. I actually develop free and open-source software, but I also work on a commercial one. There are people out there who thinks anything that comes from a commercial corporation is evil and should be avoided at all costs, even if this implies using sub-optimal software just because it is "libre". I don't even dare anymore to explain why my preferred language is C# to those people. When they ask, they aren't really interested in the answer. They just get amused because, in their own closed mind, anything Microsoft must suck. So, does this happen in the rest of the world as well? How do you deal with it?
Interested in Machine Learning in .NET? Check the Accord.NET Framework. See also
i have a usually see the opposite reaction... people bend over backwards for anything Microsoft. i work in a moslty mircosoft-shop. we deal extensively in communications, databases, and UI is of secondary concern. and yet those who work here, all too often, are fanatics for and of Microsoft. that isnt any better. fanaticism one way or the other is no solution. i have to say, i hate a lot of things about microsoft. the ubiquity and the hollier-than-thou attitude... but when it comes to making development tools, by and large, they are right on the money... they know how to build a good product. and it is simply because there is a profit to be made. free and open-source software has its uses, but sometimes there just has to be a good comercial product to get it done... capitalism is the way.
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Well, this is one my first posts here in the Lounge... I just wanted to expose a situation I find very often. And rant a little. Oh well. First, a disclaimer: I am currently working as a software developer in a mostly-Linux shop. We develop and maintain mission-critical systems for telecommunications. Naturally, most of work is done in C++ using vi and emacs in remote terminals. So I have no problems working with either C++, Linux, Windows or C# (which is my personal favorite). For me it is just a question of working with different tools to get the job done. But the problem is: very often I find people who seems to be completely anti-Microsoft. They would refuse to use any Microsoft technology, and when questioned why, they would just reply: "Because it is from Microsoft". It would be OK if they said: "It didn't attend our needs", "It does not have feature X", or "we needed true platform independence" (which sometimes just isn't true, as platform independence is used only as a marketing feature). But the only reason I hear is that it was not even considered because "it was from Microsoft". How could that be? By the way, in one of the most prestigiated universities here, students are supposed to know Linux and only Linux. They aren't even allowed to be creative in their user interfaces, because most of the exercises are corrected by an automated system which simply pass things to the input of a student's program and waits for an expected output. It is like if Linux and open-source software were the only truth they would need in life. For me, this whole anti-Microsoft, pro-free software fanatism is just ridiculous. I use free and open-source software, but I also use commercial ones. I actually develop free and open-source software, but I also work on a commercial one. There are people out there who thinks anything that comes from a commercial corporation is evil and should be avoided at all costs, even if this implies using sub-optimal software just because it is "libre". I don't even dare anymore to explain why my preferred language is C# to those people. When they ask, they aren't really interested in the answer. They just get amused because, in their own closed mind, anything Microsoft must suck. So, does this happen in the rest of the world as well? How do you deal with it?
Interested in Machine Learning in .NET? Check the Accord.NET Framework. See also
Lots of people who have been in IT for a long time (for myself it's 20 years) have seen Microsoft at their worst. Their business practices and quality of software left a lot to be desired. Too many people have been burnt too many times by Microsoft, and that sticks around for a long time. They were also anti-open source and anti-linux and have only recently (partly) started turning the ship around. It's natural FLOSS and Linux fans to be very wary of them, they had (have?) good reason to be! I deal with it by agreeing with people, but say that some parts of the company are changing.
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I'm not trying to take sides, but have you ever considered that people can have different views on what's funny and not?
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HimanshuJoshi wrote:
Hey linux and opensource is the final answer to everything
So, Linux == 42 ?
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Henry Minute wrote:
MDL=>Moshu wrote: I would totally eradicate the monetary system from the face of this planet Interesting. How would that work for the elderly or infirm members of society?
Easy, in such a system they would have to be the food.
He said, "Boy I'm just old and lonely, But thank you for your concern, Here's wishing you a Happy New Year." I wished him one back in return.
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The hate for Micro$oft started that dark day when Gates accused all of us of being pirates (him selling of $4 of papertape for $400 was not piracy, but good business sense). It picked up speed when he branched out into OSes (that he bought from someone else for a song). Then it really became disgust as Windows running on top of DOS would check to see whose OS it was running on and in an incredible display of FUD would pop up the dialog box saying that running Windows on an OS other than MS-DOS could make it unstable. As though it was the fault of the OS that Windows was unstable... The years we had to suffer with the one line editor EDLIN did not end until Digital Research added a full screen editor to their DOS and finally forced Bill to spend some time and money upgrading their product. Followed by the days of WINTEL, when processes were made as inefficient as possible to force the sale of faster processors and more memory, which iterated until today. Standards? We don't need no stinkin' standards! We are the standard! And so began "Embrace, Expand, Extinguish" as the mindset for corporate dominance. I'll admit I like the dotNet environment, but it has taken them far too long to finally figure out how to write programs.
Psychosis at 10 Film at 11
BrainiacV wrote:
The hate for Micro**$**oft...
-1 on your geek points for the dollar sign in place of the S. You don't like Microsoft, that's fine, you're entitled, but at least be adult about it instead of hacking up the company's name like some script kiddie Linux fanatic.
Mike Poz
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Alexander DiMauro wrote:
Microsoft have changed a lot just over the past few years, opening up, listening to the community, even releasing a lot of open source code. They have been slowly giving the detractors some of what they want...but it still doesn't make them happy. Nothing ever will. They are so completely closed minded.
I sincerely doubt that it entirely by choice. There are several major court ordered decisions that have had a serious impact on that. And it took repeated attempts to get to that point as well.
jschell wrote:
There are several major court ordered decisions that have had a serious impact on that. And it took repeated attempts to get to that point as well.
What Microsoft was found guilt of used to be called "hard ball business practices" in the US. In my opinion there's too much "socialist" slant in the business world now. I'm sorry, but not all businesses are created equal, take Opera for example. Their browser is OK. JUST OK. It's not amazing, it doesn't signal the second coming of Christ, yet they whined to the EC about how they don't have a fare share of the browser market. That's pure bullcrap to me. If their product truly was worth using, they would have a larger user base. Look at Firefox, that browser went from basically being unknown to having a fairly substantial chunk of browser usage share. And yes, I did try Opera, it was just OK, nothing special and really not worth the time it took to download and install.
Mike Poz
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Well, this is one my first posts here in the Lounge... I just wanted to expose a situation I find very often. And rant a little. Oh well. First, a disclaimer: I am currently working as a software developer in a mostly-Linux shop. We develop and maintain mission-critical systems for telecommunications. Naturally, most of work is done in C++ using vi and emacs in remote terminals. So I have no problems working with either C++, Linux, Windows or C# (which is my personal favorite). For me it is just a question of working with different tools to get the job done. But the problem is: very often I find people who seems to be completely anti-Microsoft. They would refuse to use any Microsoft technology, and when questioned why, they would just reply: "Because it is from Microsoft". It would be OK if they said: "It didn't attend our needs", "It does not have feature X", or "we needed true platform independence" (which sometimes just isn't true, as platform independence is used only as a marketing feature). But the only reason I hear is that it was not even considered because "it was from Microsoft". How could that be? By the way, in one of the most prestigiated universities here, students are supposed to know Linux and only Linux. They aren't even allowed to be creative in their user interfaces, because most of the exercises are corrected by an automated system which simply pass things to the input of a student's program and waits for an expected output. It is like if Linux and open-source software were the only truth they would need in life. For me, this whole anti-Microsoft, pro-free software fanatism is just ridiculous. I use free and open-source software, but I also use commercial ones. I actually develop free and open-source software, but I also work on a commercial one. There are people out there who thinks anything that comes from a commercial corporation is evil and should be avoided at all costs, even if this implies using sub-optimal software just because it is "libre". I don't even dare anymore to explain why my preferred language is C# to those people. When they ask, they aren't really interested in the answer. They just get amused because, in their own closed mind, anything Microsoft must suck. So, does this happen in the rest of the world as well? How do you deal with it?
Interested in Machine Learning in .NET? Check the Accord.NET Framework. See also
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Well, this is one my first posts here in the Lounge... I just wanted to expose a situation I find very often. And rant a little. Oh well. First, a disclaimer: I am currently working as a software developer in a mostly-Linux shop. We develop and maintain mission-critical systems for telecommunications. Naturally, most of work is done in C++ using vi and emacs in remote terminals. So I have no problems working with either C++, Linux, Windows or C# (which is my personal favorite). For me it is just a question of working with different tools to get the job done. But the problem is: very often I find people who seems to be completely anti-Microsoft. They would refuse to use any Microsoft technology, and when questioned why, they would just reply: "Because it is from Microsoft". It would be OK if they said: "It didn't attend our needs", "It does not have feature X", or "we needed true platform independence" (which sometimes just isn't true, as platform independence is used only as a marketing feature). But the only reason I hear is that it was not even considered because "it was from Microsoft". How could that be? By the way, in one of the most prestigiated universities here, students are supposed to know Linux and only Linux. They aren't even allowed to be creative in their user interfaces, because most of the exercises are corrected by an automated system which simply pass things to the input of a student's program and waits for an expected output. It is like if Linux and open-source software were the only truth they would need in life. For me, this whole anti-Microsoft, pro-free software fanatism is just ridiculous. I use free and open-source software, but I also use commercial ones. I actually develop free and open-source software, but I also work on a commercial one. There are people out there who thinks anything that comes from a commercial corporation is evil and should be avoided at all costs, even if this implies using sub-optimal software just because it is "libre". I don't even dare anymore to explain why my preferred language is C# to those people. When they ask, they aren't really interested in the answer. They just get amused because, in their own closed mind, anything Microsoft must suck. So, does this happen in the rest of the world as well? How do you deal with it?
Interested in Machine Learning in .NET? Check the Accord.NET Framework. See also
Encourage this blinkered attitude. These ignorant bozos are your future competitors.
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How dare you! The days when we Mac users spent more time bashing you PC lusers for using ugly, underpowered machines, than actually using our Macs are long gone... :laugh:
Eduardo León
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Well, this is one my first posts here in the Lounge... I just wanted to expose a situation I find very often. And rant a little. Oh well. First, a disclaimer: I am currently working as a software developer in a mostly-Linux shop. We develop and maintain mission-critical systems for telecommunications. Naturally, most of work is done in C++ using vi and emacs in remote terminals. So I have no problems working with either C++, Linux, Windows or C# (which is my personal favorite). For me it is just a question of working with different tools to get the job done. But the problem is: very often I find people who seems to be completely anti-Microsoft. They would refuse to use any Microsoft technology, and when questioned why, they would just reply: "Because it is from Microsoft". It would be OK if they said: "It didn't attend our needs", "It does not have feature X", or "we needed true platform independence" (which sometimes just isn't true, as platform independence is used only as a marketing feature). But the only reason I hear is that it was not even considered because "it was from Microsoft". How could that be? By the way, in one of the most prestigiated universities here, students are supposed to know Linux and only Linux. They aren't even allowed to be creative in their user interfaces, because most of the exercises are corrected by an automated system which simply pass things to the input of a student's program and waits for an expected output. It is like if Linux and open-source software were the only truth they would need in life. For me, this whole anti-Microsoft, pro-free software fanatism is just ridiculous. I use free and open-source software, but I also use commercial ones. I actually develop free and open-source software, but I also work on a commercial one. There are people out there who thinks anything that comes from a commercial corporation is evil and should be avoided at all costs, even if this implies using sub-optimal software just because it is "libre". I don't even dare anymore to explain why my preferred language is C# to those people. When they ask, they aren't really interested in the answer. They just get amused because, in their own closed mind, anything Microsoft must suck. So, does this happen in the rest of the world as well? How do you deal with it?
Interested in Machine Learning in .NET? Check the Accord.NET Framework. See also
Yes. I totally agree with César de Souza's point of view. Actually FOSS decreases the productivity of the quality software and whole software industry and ultimately the global economy. All Closed source software are not good but most are.
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Yes. I totally agree with César de Souza's point of view. Actually FOSS decreases the productivity of the quality software and whole software industry and ultimately the global economy. All Closed source software are not good but most are.
Shameer.123 wrote:
Yes. I totally agree with César de Souza's point of view. Actually FOSS decreases the productivity of the quality software and whole software industry and ultimately the global economy. All Closed source software are not good but most are.
Actually, this is not what I said. I never said FOSS was bad. It is just that fanaticism (of any kind) seems to turn anything that could be good into something bad. Cheers, César
Interested in Machine Learning in .NET? Check the Accord.NET Framework. See also Handwriting Recognition Revisited: Kernel Support Vector Machines
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well,microsoft is indeed a great company which promote the development of PC revolution.I am fond of products by microsoft,now,i am turning to linux because i wanna learn more and meet my job requirements. :)
Microsoft did NOT support the PC revolution, which was going strong without them. What they did was to simplify the PC revolution a bit by killing off competitors using illegal and unethical practices.
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BrainiacV wrote:
The hate for Micro**$**oft...
-1 on your geek points for the dollar sign in place of the S. You don't like Microsoft, that's fine, you're entitled, but at least be adult about it instead of hacking up the company's name like some script kiddie Linux fanatic.
Mike Poz
I give two bits about what my geek points are. I've been dealing with your God Gates since he lied to MITS (are you old enough to remember that?) that he had a BASIC interpreter and then stole university computer time to write it. Gates has never been a true believer, it has always been about the $$$. I'm just using the spelling he should have used.
Psychosis at 10 Film at 11
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jschell wrote:
There are several major court ordered decisions that have had a serious impact on that. And it took repeated attempts to get to that point as well.
What Microsoft was found guilt of used to be called "hard ball business practices" in the US. In my opinion there's too much "socialist" slant in the business world now. I'm sorry, but not all businesses are created equal, take Opera for example. Their browser is OK. JUST OK. It's not amazing, it doesn't signal the second coming of Christ, yet they whined to the EC about how they don't have a fare share of the browser market. That's pure bullcrap to me. If their product truly was worth using, they would have a larger user base. Look at Firefox, that browser went from basically being unknown to having a fairly substantial chunk of browser usage share. And yes, I did try Opera, it was just OK, nothing special and really not worth the time it took to download and install.
Mike Poz
Yeah, Opera is not worth the time, especially since MSIE comes prepackaged in the OS. Why bother following standards when you can make them up as you go, knowing most users don't know you can have multiple browsers loaded and running. Careful, you might break something and once you lose MSIE, you're screwed.
Psychosis at 10 Film at 11
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To answer the original question, all IT shops I've worked contain a certain number of java and open source fanboys. I find that those who really get stuck on what platform to perform their development upon lose sight of the fact that IT/IS departments exist to serve their business. So, here is some news for code zealots... business users could care less about what platform you've built your widget on as long as you provide a solution to their problem and as long as it meets their current requirements. So, if your users don't care about platform and if you have multiple options for development platforms then it really just comes down to cost. If you sit two developers down to provide the same solution with the same level of experience and one can do it in 4 weeks and the other can do it in 6 then you just identified the best option. I would argue that the platform independence, intropability, flexibility and maintainability that tools Microsoft provides cost less and are just as stable and perform just as well as any other platform out there. Only people who don't regularly use Microsoft tools typically argue with this point... which means they don't really know what they are missing. To address the cost factor up front before some naive coder tells me that Microsoft is too expensive I'll say this... on a development project what is the most expensive item on the project? Don't think too hard... really. Its the developer. The argument that, because Microsoft is a 'commercial' platform that it costs too much is misguided. If I can finish a project in 4 weeks and it takes you 6 then 2 weeks of salary just went down the drain. With at 2 weeks of salary saved, I could afford my MSDN subscription, buy pizza for the project team and take a short vacation. Then, because there is such a broad base of Microsoft skills, the person who comes in 2 years later should be able to update my code... and also, take a short vacation. In fact, I think I just need a vacation. Thanks for offering.
Joel Palmer Data Integration Engineer
Joel@Novaspect wrote:
To address the cost factor up front before some naive coder tells me that Microsoft is too expensive I'll say this... on a development project what is the most expensive item on the project? Don't think too hard... really. Its the developer. The argument that, because Microsoft is a 'commercial' platform that it costs too much is misguided. If I can finish a project in 4 weeks and it takes you 6 then 2 weeks of salary just went down the drain. With at 2 weeks of salary saved, I could afford my MSDN subscription, buy pizza for the project team and take a short vacation. Then, because there is such a broad base of Microsoft skills, the person who comes in 2 years later should be able to update my code... and also, take a short vacation.
I'd love to agree with you, but the bean counters I've always encountered all my career seem to think software is expensive and my time is "free". Suppose I propose purchasing a piece of software that would cut my development time by half. To to bean counter they still have to pay me for the whole time AND they have to pay for the software as well. Productivity is not something that shows up on the bottom line. Anymore I just buy the software/hardware myself and then submit a reimbursement request. I am no longer going to beat my head again a wall because management or a bean counter wants to plead poverty (while having the money to fly around the country and buying themselves company cars). Now they have to justify not paying me rather than me justifying why I need something. If I'm paying for it out of my own pocket, it is necessary and as cheap as possible, I cannot be accused of being a kid in a candy store with expense money.
Psychosis at 10 Film at 11
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Westley Cooper-Thorn wrote:
I am a Microsoft developer, and have been for 15 years because MS have always made it easy for me to do my job - develop great apps within a familiar environment, while enabling other developers to understand my work and get the support I need, when I need it. I have always found myself in extremely high demand especially in the larger corps such as banking in London. ... How to deal with it: learn another programming language and earn less money and implement solutions that cost less or move on and earn more money, providing better solutions where you are appreciated as an MS developer.
In my experiencein the US, MS developers, as a group and across the board, will earn less than unix developers.
Westley Cooper-Thorn wrote:
I, along with collegues like our systems running on MS solutions as they are the best all-in-one for what we need. .net offers a forced, high standard model of programming.
Nothing but a subjective preference phrased to suggest that it is objective. If not then please provide that measured statistics that back it up. You can replace MS/.net in the above with almost any technical terms and find comments almost exactly the same in some forum.
Subjective, Schnubjective. Of course you can replace the above text. I was sharing what I see as fact in my environment. Appreciated comments!
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Well, this is one my first posts here in the Lounge... I just wanted to expose a situation I find very often. And rant a little. Oh well. First, a disclaimer: I am currently working as a software developer in a mostly-Linux shop. We develop and maintain mission-critical systems for telecommunications. Naturally, most of work is done in C++ using vi and emacs in remote terminals. So I have no problems working with either C++, Linux, Windows or C# (which is my personal favorite). For me it is just a question of working with different tools to get the job done. But the problem is: very often I find people who seems to be completely anti-Microsoft. They would refuse to use any Microsoft technology, and when questioned why, they would just reply: "Because it is from Microsoft". It would be OK if they said: "It didn't attend our needs", "It does not have feature X", or "we needed true platform independence" (which sometimes just isn't true, as platform independence is used only as a marketing feature). But the only reason I hear is that it was not even considered because "it was from Microsoft". How could that be? By the way, in one of the most prestigiated universities here, students are supposed to know Linux and only Linux. They aren't even allowed to be creative in their user interfaces, because most of the exercises are corrected by an automated system which simply pass things to the input of a student's program and waits for an expected output. It is like if Linux and open-source software were the only truth they would need in life. For me, this whole anti-Microsoft, pro-free software fanatism is just ridiculous. I use free and open-source software, but I also use commercial ones. I actually develop free and open-source software, but I also work on a commercial one. There are people out there who thinks anything that comes from a commercial corporation is evil and should be avoided at all costs, even if this implies using sub-optimal software just because it is "libre". I don't even dare anymore to explain why my preferred language is C# to those people. When they ask, they aren't really interested in the answer. They just get amused because, in their own closed mind, anything Microsoft must suck. So, does this happen in the rest of the world as well? How do you deal with it?
Interested in Machine Learning in .NET? Check the Accord.NET Framework. See also
If you think that's tough, try being a VB application developer.... I wrote my first program for money in 1979 for a Radioshak TRS80 - CPM Anyone remember that? Operating systems and languages come and go, it's all just tools and synatx. In my limited experience end users never give a single thought to the language or operating system, only the results. All the rest is insecure people defending what they "Know".