The Tiger Mother and the lounge... [modified] THIS IS NOT ME, JUST AN EXCERPT FROM AN ARTICLE
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wizardzz wrote:
What is it about these 2 instruments that is different than any other instrument?
Those two instruments are seen as the "pinnacle" of the classical music instruments, where one can be a superstar soloist (i.e. you can train and practice mostly alone).
Watched code never compiles.
Yes and no. The same can be said of the Cello. Ditto for the most of the other orchestral instruments, though their tend to be more concertoes for hte violin than others. And what about the voice? The only valid difference I can see is that violin/cello/viola/classical guitar and piano all lend themselves to polyphony/counterpoint. That's a crucial and useful part of learning music theory both as a performer, and as a composer. You could argue that out of all of these, you could drop the strings entirely (not a bad idea, I HATE the violin and viola) and just practice the piano.
¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF! Personal 3D projects Just Say No to Web 2 Point Blow
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Anyone read this? http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html[^] Pasting an excerpt here: //BOF EXCERPT //*****THIS A EXCERPT FROM THE ARTICLE, NOT MY OWN DEEDS***** A lot of people wonder how Chinese parents raise such stereotypically successful kids. They wonder what these parents do to produce so many math whizzes and music prodigies, what it’s like inside the family, and whether they could do it too. Well, I can tell them, because I’ve done it. Here are some things my daughters, Sophia and Louisa, were never allowed to do: •attend a sleepover •have a playdate •be in a school play •complain about not being in a school play •watch TV or play computer games •choose their own extracurricular activities •get any grade less than an A •not be the No. 1 student in every subject except gym and drama •play any instrument other than the piano or violin •not play the piano or violin //EOF EXCERPT what do you think?
modified on Friday, January 28, 2011 11:23 AM
OK, let me try again, having read the article. I would agree that a lot of western parents think kids will just raise themselves. I'd say I reach a happy medium. I know when my kids have homework, and I help with it, or make sure it gets done. I also want my kids to be kids, to enjoy their lives, and to do things like music, because they like them. Both my kids play an instrument, the older one practices a lot more, and she enjoys it a lot more having found she likes it, than if I was forcing her to do it.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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My first instinct was that this was really absurd, and that she was bringing up her kids with extremely strict rules. And that they'd grow up missing out on a lot of fun. But now I think that it's not as simple as that. Kids don't all behave the same, and most kids are strongly affected by their upbringing. To these kids, from a very early age, the idea strongly fed into their minds is that they need to study, excel at academics, and then when they become doctors and lawyers with stunning salaries, then they can enjoy life. So perhaps the kids don't really grow up in an unhappy state. I reckon there will be the odd moment when they see other kids have fun and may wish they could do that too. But that happens even to normally brought up kids when they see friends having fun with drugs and high school sex. But they know it's wrong, because their parents taught them it's wrong and they move on. Similarly these Asian kids will wish they could have sleep over parties and xbox games too, but they are programmed into thinking that these are all wrong and that their main aim should be their future. This is probably analogous to religious values that parents give their kids. Christian parents bring up their kids as Christians, Muslims, Jews, Hindus etc. probably do the same. To a non-religious person, this would seem like the wrong thing to do , but eventually it's the parents' decision and the kids grow up with these beliefs strongly ingrained into their minds. Religious values, career goals etc. are things where most kids never get a choice. Very early on, parents feed them with what they think is the best way to do these things. So very few kids ever know any better. Eventually, we should not be quick to judge. Sometimes when you look deeper, and try and empathize with how a different mindset would perceive a situation, things look a lot different from what they did originally.
Regards, Nish
Latest article: Code Project Posts Analyzer for Windows Phone 7 My technology blog: voidnish.wordpress.com
Nishant Sivakumar wrote:
Eventually, we should not be quick to judge. Sometimes when you look deeper, and try and empathize with how a different mindset would perceive a situation, things look a lot different from what they did originally.
I know that not "all" Chinese parents raise their children this way but I know that "many" Chinese parents raise their children this (not just a Chinese thing either) way...I went to private school for 10+ years any many Chinese (and other cultures) raise there kids like this...some even worse. You are right, we should not be quick to judge and I am very guilty of this. However, I have seen it, been around it, and I know that it messes up the kids in the long run.
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I wish, IMO, a cello is a lot more "musical" than a violin and a lot more sexier. But a violin is easier to handle for kids.
Watched code never compiles.
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really, this is not what i am doing to my daughters... i don't even have two daugters!!! it's an excerpt from a WSJ article!!!!
I feel for you :) Sometimes the people here gang up on the newbies. Flame first and ask questions later... or sometimes not ask questions at all. Some of the reactions are, well, vitriolic. It's not such a bad place to hang out, really.... :doh:
Cheers, विक्रम (Have gone past my troika - 4 CCCs!) "We have already been through this, I am not going to repeat myself." - fat_boy, in a global warming thread :doh:
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Yes and no. The same can be said of the Cello. Ditto for the most of the other orchestral instruments, though their tend to be more concertoes for hte violin than others. And what about the voice? The only valid difference I can see is that violin/cello/viola/classical guitar and piano all lend themselves to polyphony/counterpoint. That's a crucial and useful part of learning music theory both as a performer, and as a composer. You could argue that out of all of these, you could drop the strings entirely (not a bad idea, I HATE the violin and viola) and just practice the piano.
¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF! Personal 3D projects Just Say No to Web 2 Point Blow
Yeah, I'd have thought that counterpoint on a violin is hard, whereas on a guitar or piano, you can play many notes and have them all ring out.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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iris.frigole wrote:
Jim, this is not me. It's an article I came across and just wanted to know what people thought of it.
:laugh: I feel for you man. Some of the reactions you got have been hilarious! Oh well, the good thing is they all probably think you own the Wall Street Journal :-D
Regards, Nish
Latest article: Code Project Posts Analyzer for Windows Phone 7 My technology blog: voidnish.wordpress.com
:laugh:
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Nishant Sivakumar wrote:
Eventually, we should not be quick to judge. Sometimes when you look deeper, and try and empathize with how a different mindset would perceive a situation, things look a lot different from what they did originally.
I know that not "all" Chinese parents raise their children this way but I know that "many" Chinese parents raise their children this (not just a Chinese thing either) way...I went to private school for 10+ years any many Chinese (and other cultures) raise there kids like this...some even worse. You are right, we should not be quick to judge and I am very guilty of this. However, I have seen it, been around it, and I know that it messes up the kids in the long run.
Slacker007 wrote:
However, I have seen it, been around it, and I know that it messes up the kids in the long run.
That is my personal theory too. It happens with 2nd generation Indian Americans too. Most of them are surgeons, lawyers or high-end management types making stunning salaries and living in mansions in upscale neighborhoods. But when you talk with them it seems as if they miss the spark of life. I don't really know how to explain that, but you will know what I mean if you've talked to such people.
Regards, Nish
Latest article: Code Project Posts Analyzer for Windows Phone 7 My technology blog: voidnish.wordpress.com
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not every one can be no.1 that is for sure... being good at something is a goal that can be achieved, being number one is not
It's an interesting article, but I think the whole 'what do they do over there' attitude fails to consider that there are dumb kids in China, we just don't read about them. Either way, I think the core issue is parents defining themselves by a narrow band of what their kids do.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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Exactly. My mother never did; she let us make our own decisions, and gave us all the support she could. But only as long as we would accept the consequences. Seems to have worked: I haven't gone on a killing spree yet!
Real men don't use instructions. They are only the manufacturers opinion on how to put the thing together.
Well, I hope I turned out OK, despite my mother's shortcomings...
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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changed the title of the post to avoid the flames, will be more careful next time i post for sure :)
I truly apologize to you openly for my outburst. I am not a mean spirited person (at least most of the time) and, again, I am glad that you don't want to raise your children this way.
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Sorry, I am just trying to give you a hard time :-)
Regards, Nish
Latest article: Code Project Posts Analyzer for Windows Phone 7 My technology blog: voidnish.wordpress.com
np :thumbsup:
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OK, let me try again, having read the article. I would agree that a lot of western parents think kids will just raise themselves. I'd say I reach a happy medium. I know when my kids have homework, and I help with it, or make sure it gets done. I also want my kids to be kids, to enjoy their lives, and to do things like music, because they like them. Both my kids play an instrument, the older one practices a lot more, and she enjoys it a lot more having found she likes it, than if I was forcing her to do it.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
Thank you for your reply. Medium term is where virtue is, they say in Spanish. I mostly disagree with the author views, but there is truth in this //BOF EXCERPT nothing is fun until you're good at it. To get good at anything you have to work, //EOF EXCERPT PS: i think i shouldn't have posted the excerpt in the original post, just read the article or not
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Anyone read this? http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html[^] Pasting an excerpt here: //BOF EXCERPT //*****THIS A EXCERPT FROM THE ARTICLE, NOT MY OWN DEEDS***** A lot of people wonder how Chinese parents raise such stereotypically successful kids. They wonder what these parents do to produce so many math whizzes and music prodigies, what it’s like inside the family, and whether they could do it too. Well, I can tell them, because I’ve done it. Here are some things my daughters, Sophia and Louisa, were never allowed to do: •attend a sleepover •have a playdate •be in a school play •complain about not being in a school play •watch TV or play computer games •choose their own extracurricular activities •get any grade less than an A •not be the No. 1 student in every subject except gym and drama •play any instrument other than the piano or violin •not play the piano or violin //EOF EXCERPT what do you think?
modified on Friday, January 28, 2011 11:23 AM
iris.frigole wrote:
what do you think?
I think those Chinese children will grow up to inherit what their parents currently own...a good deal of the U.S. debt. Giving up TV is a small price to pay for such a powerful position.
"One man's wage rise is another man's price increase." - Harold Wilson
"Fireproof doesn't mean the fire will never come. It means when the fire comes that you will be able to withstand it." - Michael Simmons
"Man who follows car will be exhausted." - Confucius
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Thank you for your reply. Medium term is where virtue is, they say in Spanish. I mostly disagree with the author views, but there is truth in this //BOF EXCERPT nothing is fun until you're good at it. To get good at anything you have to work, //EOF EXCERPT PS: i think i shouldn't have posted the excerpt in the original post, just read the article or not
iris.frigole wrote:
i think i shouldn't have posted the excerpt in the original post,
Maybe...maybe not. By the way, welcome to the Code Project. I assure you that we all are a bunch of entertaining misfits of one kind or another and the Lounge can be extremely habit forming. Cheers. :-D
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Thank you for your reply. Medium term is where virtue is, they say in Spanish. I mostly disagree with the author views, but there is truth in this //BOF EXCERPT nothing is fun until you're good at it. To get good at anything you have to work, //EOF EXCERPT PS: i think i shouldn't have posted the excerpt in the original post, just read the article or not
I think posting what you did was fine, you just needed to post the link so there was a context. And I agree. It's not fun until you're good at it, and kids need to learn to do the work, for school at a minimum, and for things like music, they need some prompting, but, I play myself, so I can show them what the end result looks like, and I always took the attitude that if they were to have a good attitude towards the instrument, they needed to be guided more than forced. My son plays drums and guitar, my daughter plays clarinet, piano and some guitar/bass. She is very good, he is average, but they both have fun, and both have a solid grounding if they want to take it further as they get older.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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iris.frigole wrote:
i think i shouldn't have posted the excerpt in the original post,
Maybe...maybe not. By the way, welcome to the Code Project. I assure you that we all are a bunch of entertaining misfits of one kind or another and the Lounge can be extremely habit forming. Cheers. :-D
thank you very much :)
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Next time I think you should make your post more "clear" as to what you are saying and what the article excerpt is saying. I don't think I was the only one here that misunderstood your post. I am glad to hear that you don't feel this way. :)
It was pretty clear to me (as he originally posted) it was a post about the article, not about his own parenting. Personally, I think what the article describes is going a bit overboard, but I think pushing your children to excel is good. The main thing I get out of it is being *involved* in your child's education. And not just being passive and not letting the "gov'ment" do whatever...
"If your actions inspire others to dream more, learn more, do more and become more, you are a leader." - John Quincy Adams
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Vikram A Punathambekar wrote:
while the rest are flaming and insulting the OP
Poor OP. He posts a link. First sentence, he asks if anyone has read the article. Second sentence, he says he's posting an excerpt. And yet people overlooked all that! Truly unbelievable if you ask me :-)
Regards, Nish
Latest article: Code Project Posts Analyzer for Windows Phone 7 My technology blog: voidnish.wordpress.com
Iris sounds like a she to me :) The OP did edit their post, so I have no idea what it originally looked like. However, the reaction is far too harsh. CP can be very unwelcoming at times :| DD and blatant leering sexism, for instance X|
Cheers, विक्रम (Have gone past my troika - 4 CCCs!) "We have already been through this, I am not going to repeat myself." - fat_boy, in a global warming thread :doh:
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Anyone read this? http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html[^] Pasting an excerpt here: //BOF EXCERPT //*****THIS A EXCERPT FROM THE ARTICLE, NOT MY OWN DEEDS***** A lot of people wonder how Chinese parents raise such stereotypically successful kids. They wonder what these parents do to produce so many math whizzes and music prodigies, what it’s like inside the family, and whether they could do it too. Well, I can tell them, because I’ve done it. Here are some things my daughters, Sophia and Louisa, were never allowed to do: •attend a sleepover •have a playdate •be in a school play •complain about not being in a school play •watch TV or play computer games •choose their own extracurricular activities •get any grade less than an A •not be the No. 1 student in every subject except gym and drama •play any instrument other than the piano or violin •not play the piano or violin //EOF EXCERPT what do you think?
modified on Friday, January 28, 2011 11:23 AM
I'd read that article a while back. I've heard as much before about the Asian way of education. It's hyper competitiveness and parents living through their kids. Anytime a parent implies or says directly that they won't love their kid because they're not doing what the parent wants them to achieve is emotional black mail. That's a form of power over another. It's manipulative and deceitful. I haven't read her book, but she goes into much greater depth than the article of course does. It's a lot more balanced from what I heard her explain. She learned some things about the process that she doesn't say in her article. Parents who are so disapproving of their childrens' accomplishments are the ones who don't really love them, just like to show case them like expensive cars and big houses. I've run into a few of them they're very selfish people. At the NYTimes a columnists rebuffed her article. I think his name was David Brook. He seems to value socializing more. He's on the other side of that coin. I've also met too many people who get ahead not in what they know or what they can do but in who they know at places like the golf course. As a programmer don't you guys value problem solving and critical thinking pretty high?
That's called seagull management (or sometimes pigeon management)... Fly in, flap your arms and squawk a lot, crap all over everything and fly out again... by _Damian S_
