MS Access is NOT and Enterprise Solution
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How about Firebird?
Kevin Rucker, Application Programmer QSS Group, Inc. United States Coast Guard OSC Kevin.D.Rucker@uscg.mil "Programming is an art form that fights back." -- Chad Hower
To be honest: I don't know. When SQL Server is not an option because of the price or because SQL Server Express is too limited, I usually use Postgre SQL. It's really free, can handle huge databases and never disappointed me.
A while ago he asked me what he should have printed on my business cards. I said 'Wizard'. I read books which nobody else understand. Then I do something which nobody understands. After that the computer does something which nobody understands. When asked, I say things about the results which nobody understand. But everybody expects miracles from me on a regular basis. Looks to me like the classical definition of a wizard.
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Slacker007 wrote:
it is not dependable and it crashes all the time and is constantly prone to corruption
Sounds exactly like an "enterprise solution" to me :-\
Nemanja Trifunovic wrote:
Sounds exactly like an "enterprise solution" to me
:laugh: :laugh:
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Gosh, and I thought we (as in 'our department') were in trouble when one of our clients decided to dump the efforts we took to customize our network management system to their requirments, in favor of switching to Lotus Notes. Considering that we've only had about 50 man years of development time put into this product, and another 2-3 my to adapt it, it technically sounds like a good idea to switch to a product that has hundreds or even thousands of my gone into them, even though it's been designed as a general purpose office program rather than a specialized solution to manage the servicing of a huge telecommunication network .... not! :doh: Funny thing is - a couple of months later the company in question just vanished. No idea what happened, considering the foresight and wisdom of their management ... However, after reading your posting I now feel sorry for the poor guys designated to implement the whole maintenance stuff on Lotus notes! :omg:
Stefan63 wrote:
in favor of switching to Lotus Notes.
If I had to develop "anything" in Lotus Notes then I would walk myself out to the back field and put a bullet through my head. :) I have a hard enough time using Lotus Notes for e-mail let alone developing a solution with it.
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I totally disagree! MS Access is a much saner choice than some that I have seen. The worst are the ones that use Excel as their database. Be thankful they didn't take this route, as I am sure they considered it. You are here - through no fault of mine!
Michael Haines wrote:
I totally disagree! MS Access is a much saner choice than some that I have seen.
So you think that MS Access is a viable and good choice for an Enterprise Data Entry system with multiple concurrent users compared to let's say SQL Server or Oracle? Do expand on this because I am truly at a loss as too how this is remotely possible. :confused: I am quite sure you know that Access has nothing in regards to Stored Procs, Triggers, and other nifty little gadgets that are common place in Enterprise database applications. I have never seen Excel used as an Enterprise level database...ever. Now, that is not to say it doesn't happen, I just have never heard of that.
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I have found that the second a client finds out what can (potentially) be done with MS Access (or any other cheap solution) they then try to see how much work they can get done with this database software program. This is a bad thing in so many respects and on so many levels. I proposed C# with SQL Server - minimum. They wanted and "they payed" my company to see what I can get done with Access 2007. I told them their dreams will turn into nightmares in less than one month's time. They did not believe me. My advice and concerns have turned into reality. Microsoft Access is not meant to be a multi-user data entry system...it is not dependable and it crashes all the time and is constantly prone to corruption. Even Microsoft says that Access is not meant for this kind of work. I had no choice in the matter. I don't work for myself. I am not independently wealthy. I "need" this job right now; I have a family and bills to pay. Yet I am forced into working in a constant state of futility. Our client is a big-house and pays very well. Why couldn't they pay for the right solution to the problem the first time instead of taking the "usual" cheap man's way out is beyond me. I don't even know why my company allowed this contract to take off in the first place (a side from the money). I am emotionally spent. I need a vacation. They want me and another dumb-ass programmer to do a "complete" re-write. Thanks for reading.
Yeah, it does suck to give your professional opinion and get shot down. You were right, and now your employer should recognize that, and maybe next time your opinion might carry more weight. However, in a situation where the client is dictating the tools used in a solution, you have no choice but to give them what they are paying you for. So the gamble with Access did not result in a final product. They paid you to develop a prototype. Half the work for the final product should already be done then! You should feel good about three things: 1) you were right in the beginning 2) there is no financial loss to you or your company...the client paid for their mistake, and will still be paying for the rewrite 3) you finally get to do things your way. You should take a vacation and stop taking it personally.
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I have found that the second a client finds out what can (potentially) be done with MS Access (or any other cheap solution) they then try to see how much work they can get done with this database software program. This is a bad thing in so many respects and on so many levels. I proposed C# with SQL Server - minimum. They wanted and "they payed" my company to see what I can get done with Access 2007. I told them their dreams will turn into nightmares in less than one month's time. They did not believe me. My advice and concerns have turned into reality. Microsoft Access is not meant to be a multi-user data entry system...it is not dependable and it crashes all the time and is constantly prone to corruption. Even Microsoft says that Access is not meant for this kind of work. I had no choice in the matter. I don't work for myself. I am not independently wealthy. I "need" this job right now; I have a family and bills to pay. Yet I am forced into working in a constant state of futility. Our client is a big-house and pays very well. Why couldn't they pay for the right solution to the problem the first time instead of taking the "usual" cheap man's way out is beyond me. I don't even know why my company allowed this contract to take off in the first place (a side from the money). I am emotionally spent. I need a vacation. They want me and another dumb-ass programmer to do a "complete" re-write. Thanks for reading.
You never have given any details as the the number of users and amount of data that you were trying to deal with. Access apps done right, can work quite well for companies on a budget. Access apps created by people that don't know what they are doing will always fail. C# with SQL server don't make a good app. Good coding and understanding what the customer really wanted from the start, allows good apps to be written.
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You never have given any details as the the number of users and amount of data that you were trying to deal with. Access apps done right, can work quite well for companies on a budget. Access apps created by people that don't know what they are doing will always fail. C# with SQL server don't make a good app. Good coding and understanding what the customer really wanted from the start, allows good apps to be written.
You have been a member for more than 4 years with only 1 post. :confused::confused: I assure you my dear friend...I know what I'm doing. I don't know what planet you hail from but C# and SQL Server can make a damn fine app.
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You have been a member for more than 4 years with only 1 post. :confused::confused: I assure you my dear friend...I know what I'm doing. I don't know what planet you hail from but C# and SQL Server can make a damn fine app.
You still did not answer the question. How many users and how much data?
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I have found that the second a client finds out what can (potentially) be done with MS Access (or any other cheap solution) they then try to see how much work they can get done with this database software program. This is a bad thing in so many respects and on so many levels. I proposed C# with SQL Server - minimum. They wanted and "they payed" my company to see what I can get done with Access 2007. I told them their dreams will turn into nightmares in less than one month's time. They did not believe me. My advice and concerns have turned into reality. Microsoft Access is not meant to be a multi-user data entry system...it is not dependable and it crashes all the time and is constantly prone to corruption. Even Microsoft says that Access is not meant for this kind of work. I had no choice in the matter. I don't work for myself. I am not independently wealthy. I "need" this job right now; I have a family and bills to pay. Yet I am forced into working in a constant state of futility. Our client is a big-house and pays very well. Why couldn't they pay for the right solution to the problem the first time instead of taking the "usual" cheap man's way out is beyond me. I don't even know why my company allowed this contract to take off in the first place (a side from the money). I am emotionally spent. I need a vacation. They want me and another dumb-ass programmer to do a "complete" re-write. Thanks for reading.
I've worked with Access for years. It's true that the JET database that comes with Access is not designed for enterprise applications but the solution for that is simple - a SQL Server back end (Express if cost is an issue). I've built quite a few multi-user applications that use Access as a front end and I've never had a problem with dependability, crashing or corruption when using SQL Server as a back end. It's not always the right tool to use and there are some challenges to making it work but if you embrace those challenges, you might be surprised at what it can do. . .
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Haven't used it meself - but I know MySQL is in use out there inthe real world in million-hits=per-day sites Maybe you had a bad experience - and why were you updating to the newer version if it broke the application anyway - unbless there was already something wrong?
___________________________________________ .\\axxx (That's an 'M')
In fact that's where they got their break from. They were used for extremely fast reads (ideal for a Content Management System). MySQL has grown up a lot...but the question of maturity of databases is based on their size, not the number of hits. I'd go MySQL for a million records. When you start talking 50 million records; you want MSSQL, Sybase. When you start talking 500 million records+; I'd start looking at Oracle. But that's just my rule of thumb.
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You assume that being a consultant is the only way to make money. We're programmers. We can design and sell software (or ads if it's a high volume web-site).
Yes, we canTM. But it usually boils down to something from a very short list: 1. Consult - then you work for the client. 2. Be an employee - then you work for the boss. 3. Start your own company - you need money fast. So you work for someone else - Microsoft got its start selling BASIC interpreters to Apple and operating systems to IBM. 4. Start your own company and get venture capital. You work for the capitalist. Unless you have enough money of your own to fund the early stages, you're really working for someone else at the start.
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I have found that the second a client finds out what can (potentially) be done with MS Access (or any other cheap solution) they then try to see how much work they can get done with this database software program. This is a bad thing in so many respects and on so many levels. I proposed C# with SQL Server - minimum. They wanted and "they payed" my company to see what I can get done with Access 2007. I told them their dreams will turn into nightmares in less than one month's time. They did not believe me. My advice and concerns have turned into reality. Microsoft Access is not meant to be a multi-user data entry system...it is not dependable and it crashes all the time and is constantly prone to corruption. Even Microsoft says that Access is not meant for this kind of work. I had no choice in the matter. I don't work for myself. I am not independently wealthy. I "need" this job right now; I have a family and bills to pay. Yet I am forced into working in a constant state of futility. Our client is a big-house and pays very well. Why couldn't they pay for the right solution to the problem the first time instead of taking the "usual" cheap man's way out is beyond me. I don't even know why my company allowed this contract to take off in the first place (a side from the money). I am emotionally spent. I need a vacation. They want me and another dumb-ass programmer to do a "complete" re-write. Thanks for reading.
I used access a lot to prototype. If your client is not able to specify his needs and expectations in full (not unusual), Access might be your solution. Just make sure that your client agrees that you will build the final solution with some proper tools. Not too hard to port an access solution to a c#/sqlserver solution. This can be an efficient approach. One of my first employers put it like this: "you have to build your dreamhouse twice.", justifying prototyping.
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You still did not answer the question. How many users and how much data?
Why did you 1 vote me? A lot of users and a lot of data.
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Johnny J. wrote:
What does it matter that what you do is stupid and irrelevant and will become obsolete in a month - it puts food on the table, right?
It matters to me. It matters that I do a job the "right" way regardless of how obsolete it will become.
Slacker007 wrote:
It matters to me. It matters that I do a job the "right" way regardless of how obsolete it will become.
In terms of professional conduct all that matters to me is that there is some way for me to express my concerns about specific technical choices that have been imposed on me. After that, professionally, I am not responsible for monetary damages that result from their poor choice. If I considered that using the technology might result in physical danger to someone I would just refuse to work on it. In that situation I would also make it clear that I would not refrain from publicly pointing out a dangerous implementation either.
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I have found that the second a client finds out what can (potentially) be done with MS Access (or any other cheap solution) they then try to see how much work they can get done with this database software program. This is a bad thing in so many respects and on so many levels. I proposed C# with SQL Server - minimum. They wanted and "they payed" my company to see what I can get done with Access 2007. I told them their dreams will turn into nightmares in less than one month's time. They did not believe me. My advice and concerns have turned into reality. Microsoft Access is not meant to be a multi-user data entry system...it is not dependable and it crashes all the time and is constantly prone to corruption. Even Microsoft says that Access is not meant for this kind of work. I had no choice in the matter. I don't work for myself. I am not independently wealthy. I "need" this job right now; I have a family and bills to pay. Yet I am forced into working in a constant state of futility. Our client is a big-house and pays very well. Why couldn't they pay for the right solution to the problem the first time instead of taking the "usual" cheap man's way out is beyond me. I don't even know why my company allowed this contract to take off in the first place (a side from the money). I am emotionally spent. I need a vacation. They want me and another dumb-ass programmer to do a "complete" re-write. Thanks for reading.
On this planet I see stupid people everywhere...
Steve Naidamast Black Falcon Software, Inc. blackfalconsoftware@ix.netcom.com
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I have found that the second a client finds out what can (potentially) be done with MS Access (or any other cheap solution) they then try to see how much work they can get done with this database software program. This is a bad thing in so many respects and on so many levels. I proposed C# with SQL Server - minimum. They wanted and "they payed" my company to see what I can get done with Access 2007. I told them their dreams will turn into nightmares in less than one month's time. They did not believe me. My advice and concerns have turned into reality. Microsoft Access is not meant to be a multi-user data entry system...it is not dependable and it crashes all the time and is constantly prone to corruption. Even Microsoft says that Access is not meant for this kind of work. I had no choice in the matter. I don't work for myself. I am not independently wealthy. I "need" this job right now; I have a family and bills to pay. Yet I am forced into working in a constant state of futility. Our client is a big-house and pays very well. Why couldn't they pay for the right solution to the problem the first time instead of taking the "usual" cheap man's way out is beyond me. I don't even know why my company allowed this contract to take off in the first place (a side from the money). I am emotionally spent. I need a vacation. They want me and another dumb-ass programmer to do a "complete" re-write. Thanks for reading.
You are fucking right. Is not an Enterprise solution. -Access is not a Database server. Which means I cannot be use by different computers on different locations. -The information in Access could be copy by any person just by doing copy-paste and anyone who has access could just check the info in your db. Because the info is in plain file with no security at all. Fuck it, recommend MySQL, is for free, (cheaper than Access). Well the server cost a couple of bucks like 60 dlls every year or less. Access could be use by local businesses like Pop's groceries stores, maybe get trace or save records of a local raffles in your town fair or school practices for developer students. I remember when I have to do a Convention Register Web app with text files, are fucking kidding me? Text files. It barely worked. But it worked because we only used it for one day and we use a server. So I can understand your pain my friend. You have to let them know that Access is Mothafucking bullshit as on security as on performance. It crashes a lot if is used by many people. I cannot response to several request (like search, and data manipulation) at the same time, so you can tell your clients that this performance issue will affect their data and it will cost them money.
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There are other options, such as MySQL, that provide enterprise databases that don't break the bank. Bit of a learning curve if its new to you, but worth considering.
It's the answer, write the data layer separately, and in one month when they come burning on fire, move the solution to MySql, i have done heavy applications on mysql, and are still running. In other hand i think that someone with your capabilities and honesty most get into a Business-Software-Man. Think about it!
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I have found that the second a client finds out what can (potentially) be done with MS Access (or any other cheap solution) they then try to see how much work they can get done with this database software program. This is a bad thing in so many respects and on so many levels. I proposed C# with SQL Server - minimum. They wanted and "they payed" my company to see what I can get done with Access 2007. I told them their dreams will turn into nightmares in less than one month's time. They did not believe me. My advice and concerns have turned into reality. Microsoft Access is not meant to be a multi-user data entry system...it is not dependable and it crashes all the time and is constantly prone to corruption. Even Microsoft says that Access is not meant for this kind of work. I had no choice in the matter. I don't work for myself. I am not independently wealthy. I "need" this job right now; I have a family and bills to pay. Yet I am forced into working in a constant state of futility. Our client is a big-house and pays very well. Why couldn't they pay for the right solution to the problem the first time instead of taking the "usual" cheap man's way out is beyond me. I don't even know why my company allowed this contract to take off in the first place (a side from the money). I am emotionally spent. I need a vacation. They want me and another dumb-ass programmer to do a "complete" re-write. Thanks for reading.
My first job in IT saw the company I worked for using access for all their databases. These databases were accessed over WAN links by upwards of 30 people at a time! Watching all the frustration produced was not entertaining at all. The only reason this was happening is because the IT person making these databases was all they knew and they were very close with the IT director who themselves wasn't even an IT person by profession (a masters in counseling does not equal IT director but somehow in this company, it did). They just didn't know any better. Over a few years time I was able to change their minds and set up a sql 2K system using vb web forms and some win forms but it was a painful transition since the technology wasn't known by the IT director or his right hand girl (the access developer who also wasn't professionally trained in any IT technologies or methodologies in any way (a music degree landed her the IT job?!)). This was another classic situation where the higher ups hate not being in control (they didn't know how to work with the technologies so that made them nervous and suspicious in everything I did for them even though it was my job to do so). Thankfully, I moved on from that crazy place (pun intended).
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I used access a lot to prototype. If your client is not able to specify his needs and expectations in full (not unusual), Access might be your solution. Just make sure that your client agrees that you will build the final solution with some proper tools. Not too hard to port an access solution to a c#/sqlserver solution. This can be an efficient approach. One of my first employers put it like this: "you have to build your dreamhouse twice.", justifying prototyping.
robbertnix wrote:
I used access a lot to prototype.
I do too as well. However, in this case "prototyping" was not the intention. Porting this to SQL Server is no big deal to me. It's just extra work. This stuff happens all the time in our profession but sometimes it just get to me.
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Michael Haines wrote:
I totally disagree! MS Access is a much saner choice than some that I have seen.
So you think that MS Access is a viable and good choice for an Enterprise Data Entry system with multiple concurrent users compared to let's say SQL Server or Oracle? Do expand on this because I am truly at a loss as too how this is remotely possible. :confused: I am quite sure you know that Access has nothing in regards to Stored Procs, Triggers, and other nifty little gadgets that are common place in Enterprise database applications. I have never seen Excel used as an Enterprise level database...ever. Now, that is not to say it doesn't happen, I just have never heard of that.
I am not advocating MS Access as the right solution for anything. I am merely pointing out that there are worse choices. By the way, "Enterprise" is a marketing term that can mean a wide variety of things. It does not always mean that stored procedures, triggers, or other gadgets are necessary to provide a viable solution. You are here - through no fault of mine!