Yes, my first customers! But i don't know how much to charge him :(
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I think Leppie might be the person who can give me the best advise (he also lives in South Africa) but, i need words of wisdom from anyone who is willing to give me some... I finally have my first customer. That is a good thing :thumbsup: The only problem is that i don't know how much he should pay me. He would like me to tell him how much i charge. This is what the project looks like: There is a database with a dozen tables. Some basic processing have to be done on those data. He want me to develop a windows application with a user interface. It is a application that will be used in a gym: Every time you go to the gym you have fill in all the exercises you have done. The program is supposed to show you your progress. There are also other details like food recommendation.... I am meeting him on Saturday to give him a presentation of what i will do. I have a UML diagram and i am done writing the prototype of my classes. But I also don't know how long i should tell him the project will take. :confused: Anybody, please, give me some words of wisdom. Please Leppie, don't let me down! Regards, Herve
"Walking on water and developing software from a specification are easy if both are frozen." - Edward V Berard
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An estimating formula I was shown recently is (2*B + E + 3*W)/6 B = best estimate (optimistic) E = expected W = worst case A good way of correcting your initial estimate on time required.
Join the cool kids - Come fold with us[^]
But in fixed price consulting projects there is another huge risk, and this must be kept in mind. The customer will "always" come with changes along the way. (modifications, extensions, he sees the first GUI : "How about adding a button for this?", "I really need a graph of this too", "I need to add this data to the database, but the app must remain compatible with the old DB" ) That will cost you extra work. So... methinks you need to have the guts to inform your customer that such changes will add to the total cost of the job. Not so east, especially if both customer and consultant are relatively fresh in the business of ordering/delivering contract work. And when he comes with those changes during the project (trust me he will, everybody does), you must stand up and hold your ground. You need to agree that: "Change Requests will be charged on a per case basis.", depending on your relation to the guy you may put it down in writing (good idea) or agree verbally. Good Luck!
..................... Life is too shor
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I had the same problem with my first customer :sigh: As I had taught myself to code - I didn't quite know what "should" be charged. I didn't feel comfortable going with a specific charge as some things may require Google investigation - and technically was furthering my career opportunities. So on that basis, I looked at how much work would be involved in creating the app (also a DB with a winforms UI), and decided on how much would I be happy in receiving as appropriate remuneration for the effort. It took about 140 hours to complete and I charged R4000, which was about R30 an hour.
I work on the principle that my clients only pay for what I know, not what I must Google, so I charge a fixed price for a number of hours, but if I quote 24 hours, I only promise delivery next week, to allow for me getting stuck etc.
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An estimating formula I was shown recently is (2*B + E + 3*W)/6 B = best estimate (optimistic) E = expected W = worst case A good way of correcting your initial estimate on time required.
Join the cool kids - Come fold with us[^]
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But in fixed price consulting projects there is another huge risk, and this must be kept in mind. The customer will "always" come with changes along the way. (modifications, extensions, he sees the first GUI : "How about adding a button for this?", "I really need a graph of this too", "I need to add this data to the database, but the app must remain compatible with the old DB" ) That will cost you extra work. So... methinks you need to have the guts to inform your customer that such changes will add to the total cost of the job. Not so east, especially if both customer and consultant are relatively fresh in the business of ordering/delivering contract work. And when he comes with those changes during the project (trust me he will, everybody does), you must stand up and hold your ground. You need to agree that: "Change Requests will be charged on a per case basis.", depending on your relation to the guy you may put it down in writing (good idea) or agree verbally. Good Luck!
..................... Life is too shor
megaadam wrote:
But in fixed price consulting projects there is another huge risk, and this must be kept in mind. The customer will "always" come with changes along the way. (modifications, extensions, he sees the first GUI : "How about adding a button for this?", "I really need a graph of this too", "I need to add this data to the database, but the app must remain compatible with the old DB" ) That will cost you extra work.
Wrong, about the last part anyway.;) As someone said at a seminar I attended, thats where all the profit and money lies. So you get your customer, you draw up a contract on what is going to be done and agree on the price. When the first change request comes in you tell them it's not part of the contract and inform them that you can do it, but it will add time AND cost to the project (time and cost is decided per CR, with a relativly high cost). So the extra work will not cost you anything, it will cost the customer (and they'll really think about what CR's they actually want). I agree with you, it's something that has to be considered.
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hervebags wrote:
Please Leppie, don't let me down!
I would say about R150 - R250 an hour. But keep in mind, how long it will take. Time estimation is important here, and only you can be the judge how long it will take you. That comes with experience. I have seen supposedly experienced people completely underestimate themselves over and over by a factor of 8 (yes, eight!) times. That is a hard one, I tend to over estimate a little and give extra, or make the customer happy by coming in less than the estimate price. Also beware of possible screw ups on your part that may happen, like the dog eating your source code, etc. So to start, start with the high number, and then let the customer bargain a bit. No point going low to start with, then it will just go lower. Lastly, make sure you have a proper after sales support contract, in case you need to provide extras. Also take into consideration possible bugs to fix, that may be your fault, or just a lack of specification. Hard call again whether one should charge for bug fixes. If it is a small one, then it does not matter that much. As long as you can fix it fast (and correctly) :)
Thanks, Leppie. :thumbsup:
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Well said :)
leppie wrote:
Well said
Indeed!
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hervebags wrote:
I am meeting him on Saturday to give him a presentation of what i will do. I have a UML diagram and i am done writing the prototype of my classes.
UML? Why are you calling me names, and what's an emmal, anyway? Classes? Hey, I'm not going back to school! You can keep that sh1t! You'll be talking to a guy who runs a gym, not to a dev in the office next to yours. He won't give a bluddy blue damn how you process the data; he'll want to know about what his customers will have to do to enter data (so it had better be damned simple and intuitive), and how they'll get the feedback. Mock up a user interface, with all the things you think it needs, and print out hard copies, so he can cross out the bits he doesn't like, and draw the things that he wants.
ah, the line-feed-after-a-formatting-tag problem is fixed! What bliss!
:-D Ok, i get it. I am not gonna give him all those details. ;P
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Hmmm, I would recommend going with WinForms with C# given your experience/qualification. The jump to basic C# shouldn't be any problem, but maybe you should look at something like MS LightSwitch, which allows you to build apps using a designer and very little code. Also, you can always shout if you need any help. Where do you stay?
Brady Kelly wrote:
Also, you can always shout if you need any help. Where do you stay?
Hey, thanks. I live in Plumstead, Cape town. Do you live in Cape town too?
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Brady Kelly wrote:
Also, you can always shout if you need any help. Where do you stay?
Hey, thanks. I live in Plumstead, Cape town. Do you live in Cape town too?
No, I'm a thoroughbred Jozi boy.
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I had the same problem with my first customer :sigh: As I had taught myself to code - I didn't quite know what "should" be charged. I didn't feel comfortable going with a specific charge as some things may require Google investigation - and technically was furthering my career opportunities. So on that basis, I looked at how much work would be involved in creating the app (also a DB with a winforms UI), and decided on how much would I be happy in receiving as appropriate remuneration for the effort. It took about 140 hours to complete and I charged R4000, which was about R30 an hour.
I wouldn't mind getting R30 an hour from my first customer.
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No, I'm a thoroughbred Jozi boy.
No problem, bru. As long as we are all in Mzanzi :)
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I am a c and C++ programmer. I have about 4 years of experience with console applications. I am a researcher (computer vision). If this project was a console application i would do it in maximum 2 weeks. I have used the MFC framework before but, i'm not very familiar with it. That is the only part of the project that will take longer to do. I have been playing with windows forms this past week and it is pretty fun.
So basically you have no experience building applications with a UI. As BC suggested go with winforms and C#, the transition will be pretty painless. As the project will not be specified in detail and the specification will not be signed off and nailed down I suggest you double the 2 weeks development time. This will cover you for some scope creep and testing, you probably have not factored in testing. I used to take the 2 weeks, double it and then double it again, this would be my opening estimate, then allow the client to wittle it down by 10-15% to make them feel better and you might break even. I'd use BCs hourly rate. [edit] for gods sake factor in down stream support, this sent me broke when I was doing this type of work [/edit]
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity RAH
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An estimating formula I was shown recently is (2*B + E + 3*W)/6 B = best estimate (optimistic) E = expected W = worst case A good way of correcting your initial estimate on time required.
Join the cool kids - Come fold with us[^]
That makes it about R6000. Not bad. :)
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But in fixed price consulting projects there is another huge risk, and this must be kept in mind. The customer will "always" come with changes along the way. (modifications, extensions, he sees the first GUI : "How about adding a button for this?", "I really need a graph of this too", "I need to add this data to the database, but the app must remain compatible with the old DB" ) That will cost you extra work. So... methinks you need to have the guts to inform your customer that such changes will add to the total cost of the job. Not so east, especially if both customer and consultant are relatively fresh in the business of ordering/delivering contract work. And when he comes with those changes during the project (trust me he will, everybody does), you must stand up and hold your ground. You need to agree that: "Change Requests will be charged on a per case basis.", depending on your relation to the guy you may put it down in writing (good idea) or agree verbally. Good Luck!
..................... Life is too shor
Thanks. Very good advice.:thumbsup: I don't want to give the guy a hard time though. He is my first customer
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Ditto. I charge 30% to start, 30% on delivery of a working prototype, 30% on going into production, and 10% after three months warranty, or close of last bug reported during warranty, whichever is the later. Never had a payment problem.
Thank. I think i will do the same.
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I think Leppie might be the person who can give me the best advise (he also lives in South Africa) but, i need words of wisdom from anyone who is willing to give me some... I finally have my first customer. That is a good thing :thumbsup: The only problem is that i don't know how much he should pay me. He would like me to tell him how much i charge. This is what the project looks like: There is a database with a dozen tables. Some basic processing have to be done on those data. He want me to develop a windows application with a user interface. It is a application that will be used in a gym: Every time you go to the gym you have fill in all the exercises you have done. The program is supposed to show you your progress. There are also other details like food recommendation.... I am meeting him on Saturday to give him a presentation of what i will do. I have a UML diagram and i am done writing the prototype of my classes. But I also don't know how long i should tell him the project will take. :confused: Anybody, please, give me some words of wisdom. Please Leppie, don't let me down! Regards, Herve
Rate Calculator[^] Bill hourly
Need custom software developed? I do custom programming based primarily on MS tools with an emphasis on C# development and consulting. I also do Android Programming as I find it a refreshing break from the MS. "And they, since they Were not the one dead, turned to their affairs" -- Robert Frost
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But in fixed price consulting projects there is another huge risk, and this must be kept in mind. The customer will "always" come with changes along the way. (modifications, extensions, he sees the first GUI : "How about adding a button for this?", "I really need a graph of this too", "I need to add this data to the database, but the app must remain compatible with the old DB" ) That will cost you extra work. So... methinks you need to have the guts to inform your customer that such changes will add to the total cost of the job. Not so east, especially if both customer and consultant are relatively fresh in the business of ordering/delivering contract work. And when he comes with those changes during the project (trust me he will, everybody does), you must stand up and hold your ground. You need to agree that: "Change Requests will be charged on a per case basis.", depending on your relation to the guy you may put it down in writing (good idea) or agree verbally. Good Luck!
..................... Life is too shor
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Rate Calculator[^] Bill hourly
Need custom software developed? I do custom programming based primarily on MS tools with an emphasis on C# development and consulting. I also do Android Programming as I find it a refreshing break from the MS. "And they, since they Were not the one dead, turned to their affairs" -- Robert Frost
Thanks, the calculator is quite helpful! :thumbsup: