DotNet reflector. Is this right?
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It makes no difference I guess, seeing that I bought a licence from Red Gate for what used to be Lutz Roeder's freeware product. I ran into problems with Red Gate's version so I wanted to see if Roeder's original version worked. When I ran it, I was prompted to update which I declined. Red Gate then took it upon themselves to then delete the original exe file. This got me thinking that Red Gate are entitled to protect their paid-for investment but what right do they have to delete what was a 100% legal freeware app? I've not violated any law that I can see. It's a bit like saying that because you drive an older model car, when the manufacturer brings out a new car and gives you the option to trade it in you have the right to say no. After all, it's your old car. Because you said no, they impound your old car and crush it leaving you with nothing. Where exactly is it written that I gave Red Gate permission to delete files from my disk drive. I never said they could. It's my property so what gives them the right to interfere with my personal property? I have no problem with having purchased the licence but I really resent what they assumed they could do. As it is, I've since learned that Reflector is not the same product it used to be. It's as if Red Gate started at the top (thanks to Lutz for putting them there) and then they worked their way downward! I'm not happy with Red Gate and less than happy with a product that crashes when I try to use it. For that privilege, I wasted £72. I'm hoping that you can learn a lesson from my experience. Don't assume the Reflector is what it used to be. Save your money and research other tools which it looks like some are still free. I won't get my money back from Red Gate. Don't waste yours either. Sorry if I'm pissed with Red Gate but I expected better than what they charged me for.
I don't know if you read the terms of service you agreed to when you installed the Red Gate verson, who ever does, but if there is no provision for them to delete things from your machine I would report it to the authorities as a violation of your privacy. I don't know what the laws are like in the UK but in the US it is a criminal offense to access another persons computer without permission. They may be criminally liable which makes it easier to get them to stop because when fighting a company with deep pockets for legal expenses an individual doesn't stand a chance, but the government has even deeper pockets and the threat of imprisonment to back them.
Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
Think inside the box! ProActive Secure Systems
I'm on-line therefore I am. JimmyRopes -
I don't know if you read the terms of service you agreed to when you installed the Red Gate verson, who ever does, but if there is no provision for them to delete things from your machine I would report it to the authorities as a violation of your privacy. I don't know what the laws are like in the UK but in the US it is a criminal offense to access another persons computer without permission. They may be criminally liable which makes it easier to get them to stop because when fighting a company with deep pockets for legal expenses an individual doesn't stand a chance, but the government has even deeper pockets and the threat of imprisonment to back them.
Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
Think inside the box! ProActive Secure Systems
I'm on-line therefore I am. JimmyRopesJimmyRopes wrote:
it is a criminal offense to access another persons computer without permission.
I don't like what happened, but I also don't understand your argument: he did buy the software, he installed it, and apparently he launched it, and that is when it removed itself. How much more permission does one need? All he can argue is he wasn't aware of part of the software's functionality. :)
Luc Pattyn [Forum Guidelines] [My Articles] Nil Volentibus Arduum
Please use <PRE> tags for code snippets, they preserve indentation, improve readability, and make me actually look at the code.
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JimmyRopes wrote:
it is a criminal offense to access another persons computer without permission.
I don't like what happened, but I also don't understand your argument: he did buy the software, he installed it, and apparently he launched it, and that is when it removed itself. How much more permission does one need? All he can argue is he wasn't aware of part of the software's functionality. :)
Luc Pattyn [Forum Guidelines] [My Articles] Nil Volentibus Arduum
Please use <PRE> tags for code snippets, they preserve indentation, improve readability, and make me actually look at the code.
Luc Pattyn wrote:
How much more permission does one need? All he can argue is he wasn't aware of part of the software's functionality
As I understand, or possibly misunderstand, it the software that was removed was not the version he paid for, but the freeware version he downloaded before Red Gate ever bought the rights to the product. When he downloaded the software it was free for the taking so he has a legal copy of that version of the software and should be able to run it whenever he likes.
Luc Pattyn wrote:
I don't like what happened, but I also don't understand your argument
Since he purchased a copy from Red Gate when he tried to compare the old version with the purchased software they deleted the old version of the software, a legal copy, without his permission. What I am saying is that they deleted perfectly legal software from his machine without his permission.
Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
Think inside the box! ProActive Secure Systems
I'm on-line therefore I am. JimmyRopes -
It makes no difference I guess, seeing that I bought a licence from Red Gate for what used to be Lutz Roeder's freeware product. I ran into problems with Red Gate's version so I wanted to see if Roeder's original version worked. When I ran it, I was prompted to update which I declined. Red Gate then took it upon themselves to then delete the original exe file. This got me thinking that Red Gate are entitled to protect their paid-for investment but what right do they have to delete what was a 100% legal freeware app? I've not violated any law that I can see. It's a bit like saying that because you drive an older model car, when the manufacturer brings out a new car and gives you the option to trade it in you have the right to say no. After all, it's your old car. Because you said no, they impound your old car and crush it leaving you with nothing. Where exactly is it written that I gave Red Gate permission to delete files from my disk drive. I never said they could. It's my property so what gives them the right to interfere with my personal property? I have no problem with having purchased the licence but I really resent what they assumed they could do. As it is, I've since learned that Reflector is not the same product it used to be. It's as if Red Gate started at the top (thanks to Lutz for putting them there) and then they worked their way downward! I'm not happy with Red Gate and less than happy with a product that crashes when I try to use it. For that privilege, I wasted £72. I'm hoping that you can learn a lesson from my experience. Don't assume the Reflector is what it used to be. Save your money and research other tools which it looks like some are still free. I won't get my money back from Red Gate. Don't waste yours either. Sorry if I'm pissed with Red Gate but I expected better than what they charged me for.
PHS241 wrote:
I ran into problems with Red Gate's version so I wanted to see if Roeder's original version worked. When I ran it, I was prompted to update which I declined. Red Gate then took it upon themselves to then delete the original exe file.
It's not that the new Reflector versions go out and destroy older copies. Reflector always had a timebomb built-in - once a version is expired, it will prompt you to update. If you decline updating, Reflector deletes itself. You cannot run old versions (unless you manipulate your system time). AFAIK the last free version will expire in May. By the way, does the new Reflector version support yield return? That's what I spent the last weekend on[^]. :) The way Reflector works (at least as far as I could tell from the Reflector bugs I noticed) is that it compares the IL instructions with a set of built-in patterns. Reflector will crash or produce incorrect code when you try to decompile code that wasn't produced by the C# or VB compiler (e.g. obfuscated code, F# or Boo assemblies). For ILSpy[^] we used a different approach - basically we decompile every single IL instruction into a single C# statement (introducing tons of temporary variables), and then use well-known optimization techniques (e.g. copy propagation) to transform that into more readable C# code. We rely on pattern matching only for high-level C# constructs (foreach, using, anonymous methods, yield return, etc...).
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Luc Pattyn wrote:
How much more permission does one need? All he can argue is he wasn't aware of part of the software's functionality
As I understand, or possibly misunderstand, it the software that was removed was not the version he paid for, but the freeware version he downloaded before Red Gate ever bought the rights to the product. When he downloaded the software it was free for the taking so he has a legal copy of that version of the software and should be able to run it whenever he likes.
Luc Pattyn wrote:
I don't like what happened, but I also don't understand your argument
Since he purchased a copy from Red Gate when he tried to compare the old version with the purchased software they deleted the old version of the software, a legal copy, without his permission. What I am saying is that they deleted perfectly legal software from his machine without his permission.
Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
Think inside the box! ProActive Secure Systems
I'm on-line therefore I am. JimmyRopesJimmyRopes wrote:
they deleted perfectly legal software from his machine without his permission
I agree, however that happens all the time one way or another. When FireFox suggests me to upgrade its browser, if I agree I get a new one, the old one is gone, so I can't compare them, and if for some reason I don't like the new one, I have to figure out if and how I can revert to the previous version. When I install VS2010 my earlier VS2008 remains more or less intact, however it no longer works as before, since now double-clicking a proj or sln file will launch VS2010. It even may have caused some new .NET versions and service packs to be installed, fixing some bugs and introducing new ones. When I enable automatic Windows updates, I never am sure my machine will work today as good as it did yesterday. Software developers and vendors simply aren't sufficiently explicit in what will happen when you install, remove, alter the installation, or answer a related question. And yes, modifying an installation without consent and without notification is very bad. As is not cleaning up, so whether old versions should be removed is a dilemma the administrator should be in charge of. IMO clean up should be a separate installation step, something that can be postponed until one is happy with the new software. :)
Luc Pattyn [Forum Guidelines] [My Articles] Nil Volentibus Arduum
Please use <PRE> tags for code snippets, they preserve indentation, improve readability, and make me actually look at the code.
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JimmyRopes wrote:
they deleted perfectly legal software from his machine without his permission
I agree, however that happens all the time one way or another. When FireFox suggests me to upgrade its browser, if I agree I get a new one, the old one is gone, so I can't compare them, and if for some reason I don't like the new one, I have to figure out if and how I can revert to the previous version. When I install VS2010 my earlier VS2008 remains more or less intact, however it no longer works as before, since now double-clicking a proj or sln file will launch VS2010. It even may have caused some new .NET versions and service packs to be installed, fixing some bugs and introducing new ones. When I enable automatic Windows updates, I never am sure my machine will work today as good as it did yesterday. Software developers and vendors simply aren't sufficiently explicit in what will happen when you install, remove, alter the installation, or answer a related question. And yes, modifying an installation without consent and without notification is very bad. As is not cleaning up, so whether old versions should be removed is a dilemma the administrator should be in charge of. IMO clean up should be a separate installation step, something that can be postponed until one is happy with the new software. :)
Luc Pattyn [Forum Guidelines] [My Articles] Nil Volentibus Arduum
Please use <PRE> tags for code snippets, they preserve indentation, improve readability, and make me actually look at the code.
Luc Pattyn wrote:
I agree, however that happens all the time one way or another.
You raised good points about upgrades and this could be considered an upgrade even though the original software was downloaded from the former owner of the software. I hadn't thought of it as such since the former version was a freeware version from a different web site. I guess the moral of the story is not to purchase the software from Rewd Gate. My old version works just fine. <edit> I may have downloaded the free version from Red Gate. If they no longer will offer a free version I think I will go to ILSpy. </edit>
Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
Think inside the box! ProActive Secure Systems
I'm on-line therefore I am. JimmyRopesmodified on Sunday, March 13, 2011 2:54 PM
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Luc Pattyn wrote:
How much more permission does one need? All he can argue is he wasn't aware of part of the software's functionality
As I understand, or possibly misunderstand, it the software that was removed was not the version he paid for, but the freeware version he downloaded before Red Gate ever bought the rights to the product. When he downloaded the software it was free for the taking so he has a legal copy of that version of the software and should be able to run it whenever he likes.
Luc Pattyn wrote:
I don't like what happened, but I also don't understand your argument
Since he purchased a copy from Red Gate when he tried to compare the old version with the purchased software they deleted the old version of the software, a legal copy, without his permission. What I am saying is that they deleted perfectly legal software from his machine without his permission.
Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
Think inside the box! ProActive Secure Systems
I'm on-line therefore I am. JimmyRopesI agree and I don't believe that there is a time limit on the free version as I'm still running it on my machine...right now as a matter of fact and there has been no attempt to confiscate my copy. Delete the bought version and re-install the free version and see if it works?
If you are cross-eyed and have dyslexia, can you read all right? http://www.hq4thmarinescomm.com[^] JaxCoder.com[^]WinHeist - Windows Electronic Inventory SysTem
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PHS241 wrote:
I ran into problems with Red Gate's version so I wanted to see if Roeder's original version worked. When I ran it, I was prompted to update which I declined. Red Gate then took it upon themselves to then delete the original exe file.
It's not that the new Reflector versions go out and destroy older copies. Reflector always had a timebomb built-in - once a version is expired, it will prompt you to update. If you decline updating, Reflector deletes itself. You cannot run old versions (unless you manipulate your system time). AFAIK the last free version will expire in May. By the way, does the new Reflector version support yield return? That's what I spent the last weekend on[^]. :) The way Reflector works (at least as far as I could tell from the Reflector bugs I noticed) is that it compares the IL instructions with a set of built-in patterns. Reflector will crash or produce incorrect code when you try to decompile code that wasn't produced by the C# or VB compiler (e.g. obfuscated code, F# or Boo assemblies). For ILSpy[^] we used a different approach - basically we decompile every single IL instruction into a single C# statement (introducing tons of temporary variables), and then use well-known optimization techniques (e.g. copy propagation) to transform that into more readable C# code. We rely on pattern matching only for high-level C# constructs (foreach, using, anonymous methods, yield return, etc...).
If they expire in May that will be that. I am prepared I downloaded your ILSpy a week or so ago and it is a very nice utility that will replace Reflector.
If you are cross-eyed and have dyslexia, can you read all right? http://www.hq4thmarinescomm.com[^] JaxCoder.com[^]WinHeist - Windows Electronic Inventory SysTem
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I agree and I don't believe that there is a time limit on the free version as I'm still running it on my machine...right now as a matter of fact and there has been no attempt to confiscate my copy. Delete the bought version and re-install the free version and see if it works?
If you are cross-eyed and have dyslexia, can you read all right? http://www.hq4thmarinescomm.com[^] JaxCoder.com[^]WinHeist - Windows Electronic Inventory SysTem
The free version expires in (I think) June. Redgate announced this at the same time they made the 'paid product' announcement.
Henry Minute Do not read medical books! You could die of a misprint. - Mark Twain Girl: (staring) "Why do you need an icy cucumber?" “I want to report a fraud. The government is lying to us all.” I wouldn't let CG touch my Abacus! When you're wrestling a gorilla, you don't stop when you're tired, you stop when the gorilla is.
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The free version expires in (I think) June. Redgate announced this at the same time they made the 'paid product' announcement.
Henry Minute Do not read medical books! You could die of a misprint. - Mark Twain Girl: (staring) "Why do you need an icy cucumber?" “I want to report a fraud. The government is lying to us all.” I wouldn't let CG touch my Abacus! When you're wrestling a gorilla, you don't stop when you're tired, you stop when the gorilla is.
No where on there site does it say anything about expiration or the old version not working after a certain date. here[^] I wonder if they are just not going to support it any longer or if they actually have in mind to time-bomb it?
If you are cross-eyed and have dyslexia, can you read all right? http://www.hq4thmarinescomm.com[^] JaxCoder.com[^]WinHeist - Windows Electronic Inventory SysTem
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No where on there site does it say anything about expiration or the old version not working after a certain date. here[^] I wonder if they are just not going to support it any longer or if they actually have in mind to time-bomb it?
If you are cross-eyed and have dyslexia, can you read all right? http://www.hq4thmarinescomm.com[^] JaxCoder.com[^]WinHeist - Windows Electronic Inventory SysTem
Mike Hankey wrote:
if they actually have in mind to time-bomb it?
I don't honestly know but it has always been time-bombed in the past so I wouldn't be surprised if it did.
Henry Minute Do not read medical books! You could die of a misprint. - Mark Twain Girl: (staring) "Why do you need an icy cucumber?" “I want to report a fraud. The government is lying to us all.” I wouldn't let CG touch my Abacus! When you're wrestling a gorilla, you don't stop when you're tired, you stop when the gorilla is.
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Mike Hankey wrote:
if they actually have in mind to time-bomb it?
I don't honestly know but it has always been time-bombed in the past so I wouldn't be surprised if it did.
Henry Minute Do not read medical books! You could die of a misprint. - Mark Twain Girl: (staring) "Why do you need an icy cucumber?" “I want to report a fraud. The government is lying to us all.” I wouldn't let CG touch my Abacus! When you're wrestling a gorilla, you don't stop when you're tired, you stop when the gorilla is.
I briefly scanned the license agreement and saw nothing that would indicate a time-bomb but you're right if they've done it in the past they will probably do it in June. May the Bird of Paradise fly up your nose. Little Jimmy Dickens
If you are cross-eyed and have dyslexia, can you read all right? http://www.hq4thmarinescomm.com[^] JaxCoder.com[^]WinHeist - Windows Electronic Inventory SysTem
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No where on there site does it say anything about expiration or the old version not working after a certain date. here[^] I wonder if they are just not going to support it any longer or if they actually have in mind to time-bomb it?
If you are cross-eyed and have dyslexia, can you read all right? http://www.hq4thmarinescomm.com[^] JaxCoder.com[^]WinHeist - Windows Electronic Inventory SysTem
I have found the source for the expiry date. Here[^], 6th question. My original expiry date suggestion was out by 1 day.
Henry Minute Do not read medical books! You could die of a misprint. - Mark Twain Girl: (staring) "Why do you need an icy cucumber?" “I want to report a fraud. The government is lying to us all.” I wouldn't let CG touch my Abacus! When you're wrestling a gorilla, you don't stop when you're tired, you stop when the gorilla is.
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I have found the source for the expiry date. Here[^], 6th question. My original expiry date suggestion was out by 1 day.
Henry Minute Do not read medical books! You could die of a misprint. - Mark Twain Girl: (staring) "Why do you need an icy cucumber?" “I want to report a fraud. The government is lying to us all.” I wouldn't let CG touch my Abacus! When you're wrestling a gorilla, you don't stop when you're tired, you stop when the gorilla is.
hmmm you were right. I wonder I might have an old version pre-redgate whether it would work past the annihilation date?? I might do some serchin and see if I still have a copy somewhere in backups.
If you are cross-eyed and have dyslexia, can you read all right? http://www.hq4thmarinescomm.com[^] JaxCoder.com[^]WinHeist - Windows Electronic Inventory SysTem
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If they expire in May that will be that. I am prepared I downloaded your ILSpy a week or so ago and it is a very nice utility that will replace Reflector.
If you are cross-eyed and have dyslexia, can you read all right? http://www.hq4thmarinescomm.com[^] JaxCoder.com[^]WinHeist - Windows Electronic Inventory SysTem
I added a thread to Red Gate's forum and you know something, a lot of people are also very upset about this sleight of hand and underhand strategy they have. It makes me more determined to try and get a refund from them. In the meantime, I "discovered" ILSpy and thanks to you guys for your heads-up on it. I downloaded it and I was able to load the same executable and assemblies that caused Red Gate's implementation to blow up. It seems then, that freeware in the shape of ILSpy is the way forward.
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JimmyRopes wrote:
they deleted perfectly legal software from his machine without his permission
I agree, however that happens all the time one way or another. When FireFox suggests me to upgrade its browser, if I agree I get a new one, the old one is gone, so I can't compare them, and if for some reason I don't like the new one, I have to figure out if and how I can revert to the previous version. When I install VS2010 my earlier VS2008 remains more or less intact, however it no longer works as before, since now double-clicking a proj or sln file will launch VS2010. It even may have caused some new .NET versions and service packs to be installed, fixing some bugs and introducing new ones. When I enable automatic Windows updates, I never am sure my machine will work today as good as it did yesterday. Software developers and vendors simply aren't sufficiently explicit in what will happen when you install, remove, alter the installation, or answer a related question. And yes, modifying an installation without consent and without notification is very bad. As is not cleaning up, so whether old versions should be removed is a dilemma the administrator should be in charge of. IMO clean up should be a separate installation step, something that can be postponed until one is happy with the new software. :)
Luc Pattyn [Forum Guidelines] [My Articles] Nil Volentibus Arduum
Please use <PRE> tags for code snippets, they preserve indentation, improve readability, and make me actually look at the code.
-
I added a thread to Red Gate's forum and you know something, a lot of people are also very upset about this sleight of hand and underhand strategy they have. It makes me more determined to try and get a refund from them. In the meantime, I "discovered" ILSpy and thanks to you guys for your heads-up on it. I downloaded it and I was able to load the same executable and assemblies that caused Red Gate's implementation to blow up. It seems then, that freeware in the shape of ILSpy is the way forward.
The best way to piss someone off is to tell them they have to do something or that that is the way it is going to be. At least me! So yes I believe ILSpy is the way to go, when Henry and I started our conversation I looked in a few of my old backups and didn't find an old pre-redgate version of Reflector so I tried loading the same .dlls in ILSpy that I had loaded into Relector and it gave me the same information. So you know what RedGate can KMA I won't buy anything of there's EVER!, and I don't believe I'll be alone on this.
If you are cross-eyed and have dyslexia, can you read all right? http://www.hq4thmarinescomm.com[^] JaxCoder.com[^]WinHeist - Windows Electronic Inventory SysTem
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It makes no difference I guess, seeing that I bought a licence from Red Gate for what used to be Lutz Roeder's freeware product. I ran into problems with Red Gate's version so I wanted to see if Roeder's original version worked. When I ran it, I was prompted to update which I declined. Red Gate then took it upon themselves to then delete the original exe file. This got me thinking that Red Gate are entitled to protect their paid-for investment but what right do they have to delete what was a 100% legal freeware app? I've not violated any law that I can see. It's a bit like saying that because you drive an older model car, when the manufacturer brings out a new car and gives you the option to trade it in you have the right to say no. After all, it's your old car. Because you said no, they impound your old car and crush it leaving you with nothing. Where exactly is it written that I gave Red Gate permission to delete files from my disk drive. I never said they could. It's my property so what gives them the right to interfere with my personal property? I have no problem with having purchased the licence but I really resent what they assumed they could do. As it is, I've since learned that Reflector is not the same product it used to be. It's as if Red Gate started at the top (thanks to Lutz for putting them there) and then they worked their way downward! I'm not happy with Red Gate and less than happy with a product that crashes when I try to use it. For that privilege, I wasted £72. I'm hoping that you can learn a lesson from my experience. Don't assume the Reflector is what it used to be. Save your money and research other tools which it looks like some are still free. I won't get my money back from Red Gate. Don't waste yours either. Sorry if I'm pissed with Red Gate but I expected better than what they charged me for.
Repost (a bit longer-winded, but a repost none the less).
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
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You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
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"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997 -
hmmm you were right. I wonder I might have an old version pre-redgate whether it would work past the annihilation date?? I might do some serchin and see if I still have a copy somewhere in backups.
If you are cross-eyed and have dyslexia, can you read all right? http://www.hq4thmarinescomm.com[^] JaxCoder.com[^]WinHeist - Windows Electronic Inventory SysTem
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It makes no difference I guess, seeing that I bought a licence from Red Gate for what used to be Lutz Roeder's freeware product. I ran into problems with Red Gate's version so I wanted to see if Roeder's original version worked. When I ran it, I was prompted to update which I declined. Red Gate then took it upon themselves to then delete the original exe file. This got me thinking that Red Gate are entitled to protect their paid-for investment but what right do they have to delete what was a 100% legal freeware app? I've not violated any law that I can see. It's a bit like saying that because you drive an older model car, when the manufacturer brings out a new car and gives you the option to trade it in you have the right to say no. After all, it's your old car. Because you said no, they impound your old car and crush it leaving you with nothing. Where exactly is it written that I gave Red Gate permission to delete files from my disk drive. I never said they could. It's my property so what gives them the right to interfere with my personal property? I have no problem with having purchased the licence but I really resent what they assumed they could do. As it is, I've since learned that Reflector is not the same product it used to be. It's as if Red Gate started at the top (thanks to Lutz for putting them there) and then they worked their way downward! I'm not happy with Red Gate and less than happy with a product that crashes when I try to use it. For that privilege, I wasted £72. I'm hoping that you can learn a lesson from my experience. Don't assume the Reflector is what it used to be. Save your money and research other tools which it looks like some are still free. I won't get my money back from Red Gate. Don't waste yours either. Sorry if I'm pissed with Red Gate but I expected better than what they charged me for.
http://download.cnet.com/Red-Gate-s-NET-Reflector/3000-10250_4-10962255.html[^] Is this the version you use? Still seems to be free here. Not to dispute your point. Just thought it may be helpful.
"Courtesy is the product of a mature, disciplined mind ... ridicule is lack of the same - DPM"
