Imposition of beliefs on others is just wrong
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HimanshuJoshi wrote:
There are plenty of other cereals, pulses and other vegeterian meals that have all those proteins and vitamins that meat has. Granted that they are heavy for our stomach to process, so they should be given in paste/soup form to the baby.
Vegetarian yes, pure vegan no. The baby died of B12 deficiency which is the main vitamin lacking in a vegan diet.
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Andy Brummer wrote:
Vegetarian yes, pure vegan no. The baby died of B12 deficiency which is the main vitamin lacking in a vegan diet.
Yup, and since your body can store several decades of it if you're on a normal omnivorous diet the dietary deficiency takes a long time to sneak up on healthy adult converts. B12 synthesis is the key dividing line between true herbivores (which synthesize it) and obligate omni/carnivores (which need to get it from meat). There are no known land plants that produce it, so all of our ancestors were omnivores, as proven by the fact that they lived long enough to breed. Researchers have found a type of seaweed that produces B12, but it wasn't part of the diet of humans in the ares it was native to. It does however allow vegans who hate organic chemistry a biological lifeline.
3x12=36 2x12=24 1x12=12 0x12=18
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HimanshuJoshi wrote:
There are plenty of other cereals, pulses and other vegeterian meals that have all those proteins and vitamins that meat has. Granted that they are heavy for our stomach to process, so they should be given in paste/soup form to the baby.
Vegetarian yes, pure vegan no. The baby died of B12 deficiency which is the main vitamin lacking in a vegan diet.
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Andy Brummer wrote:
Vegetarian yes, pure vegan no
Agreed.
Andy Brummer wrote:
The baby died of B12 deficiency which is the main vitamin lacking in a vegan diet.
that's the reason we are vegeterians not pure vegans.
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Very true... Can't conduct a real experiment, because you can't eliminate external factors. I would speculate that: 1) On average, people on vegetarian/vegan diets are more health-conscious than the rest of us. I realize some percentage of them eat that way for ethical reasons instead of health reasons, but even those people are, because of the diet, paying much more attention to what they eat, and thus to their health. (Note: I'm not saying that they're eating healthier... I'm saying they're actually making an effort to eat healthy. Whether or not their idea of healthy is correct, is the real question here) 2) This attention to health is not necessarily dependent on that diet, so these same people, on a non-veggie diet, would likely still be paying more attention to their health, avoiding things that we all agree are unhealthy (But can't resist...) Therefore, a scientific study would have to determine the effect and prevalence of the "Health consciousness" factor, independently from the "Vegetarian/Vegan" factor, and somehow cancel it out. I have no idea how to go about doing that. As for myself... I've never tried going vegetarian, and I can't picture myself EVER trying that, let alone veganism... I mean, the idea of giving up burgers, steak, sushi, sausage on my pizza, bacon and eggs... And try to replace all that and more with rabbit food? Ugh! Good thing I just ate a couple hours ago (Chicken parmesan :) ), or this would be making me hungry...
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels)Factoring out lifestyle, exercise, smoking, environment, sun exposure, etc. is one issue. Another is people lie like crazy on surveys about what they eat. On top of that you have all the artificial crap out there that will screw up any diet.
Ian Shlasko wrote:
Good thing I just ate a couple hours ago (Chicken parmesan :) ), or this would be making me hungry...
That's on my do not eat list. I can't really talk because my diet is way further away from the mainstream than vegetarians, but I feel so good that I don't even miss bread all that much anymore. And I actually prefer meatza to pizza anyway.
Curvature of the Mind now with 3D
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Factoring out lifestyle, exercise, smoking, environment, sun exposure, etc. is one issue. Another is people lie like crazy on surveys about what they eat. On top of that you have all the artificial crap out there that will screw up any diet.
Ian Shlasko wrote:
Good thing I just ate a couple hours ago (Chicken parmesan :) ), or this would be making me hungry...
That's on my do not eat list. I can't really talk because my diet is way further away from the mainstream than vegetarians, but I feel so good that I don't even miss bread all that much anymore. And I actually prefer meatza to pizza anyway.
Curvature of the Mind now with 3D
Andy Brummer wrote:
Factoring out lifestyle, exercise, smoking, environment, sun exposure, etc. is one issue. Another is people lie like crazy on surveys about what they eat. On top of that you have all the artificial crap out there that will screw up any diet.
True, true... The margin of error would be too high for the results to be meaningful...
Andy Brummer wrote:
That's on my do not eat list. I can't really talk because my diet is way further away from the mainstream than vegetarians, but I feel so good that I don't even miss bread all that much anymore. And I actually prefer meatza to pizza anyway.
Ah, so you're low-carb... If I really cared enough about my diet, I could probably handle something like that. Right now, I'm a strict adherent to the "Hey, that looks tasty! I'll just spend some extra time on the bike later" diet.
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Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels) -
Andy Brummer wrote:
Factoring out lifestyle, exercise, smoking, environment, sun exposure, etc. is one issue. Another is people lie like crazy on surveys about what they eat. On top of that you have all the artificial crap out there that will screw up any diet.
True, true... The margin of error would be too high for the results to be meaningful...
Andy Brummer wrote:
That's on my do not eat list. I can't really talk because my diet is way further away from the mainstream than vegetarians, but I feel so good that I don't even miss bread all that much anymore. And I actually prefer meatza to pizza anyway.
Ah, so you're low-carb... If I really cared enough about my diet, I could probably handle something like that. Right now, I'm a strict adherent to the "Hey, that looks tasty! I'll just spend some extra time on the bike later" diet.
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Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels)Actually, low fructose. I eat plenty of root vegetables which are broken down into glucose, though I eat lower carb than most people. If you go into Atkins/ketosis land for too long it becomes hard to get enough veggies to stay healthy, plus there are hard limits on the amount of protein you can eat before your body starts converting it over to sugar anyway. As it is I eat a ton more vegetables then I did when I was vegetarian. If you wanted to break it down macro nutritively, my calorie breakdown is fat > protein > carb with most of the carbs from vegetables and a little from fruit. The labels that apply are paleo or primal. I avoid most neolithic foods, but that's not the motivation for the way I eat.
Curvature of the Mind now with 3D
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Actually, low fructose. I eat plenty of root vegetables which are broken down into glucose, though I eat lower carb than most people. If you go into Atkins/ketosis land for too long it becomes hard to get enough veggies to stay healthy, plus there are hard limits on the amount of protein you can eat before your body starts converting it over to sugar anyway. As it is I eat a ton more vegetables then I did when I was vegetarian. If you wanted to break it down macro nutritively, my calorie breakdown is fat > protein > carb with most of the carbs from vegetables and a little from fruit. The labels that apply are paleo or primal. I avoid most neolithic foods, but that's not the motivation for the way I eat.
Curvature of the Mind now with 3D
Man, you really have this down to a science... Honestly, I spend so much time thinking about plotlines, programming projects, and pointless... uh... things... (Damn, I had some nice alliteration going)... that I don't think I could spare any concentration for food, beyond "Hungry... Let's see what's in the fridge" (And the fridge is populated by the concatenation of "What am I running out of?" and anything interesting that pops into my mind while walking through the grocery store)
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Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels) -
Man, you really have this down to a science... Honestly, I spend so much time thinking about plotlines, programming projects, and pointless... uh... things... (Damn, I had some nice alliteration going)... that I don't think I could spare any concentration for food, beyond "Hungry... Let's see what's in the fridge" (And the fridge is populated by the concatenation of "What am I running out of?" and anything interesting that pops into my mind while walking through the grocery store)
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Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels)Yeah, been there, done that. I'm about to go home pick up my family and run out to the farmer's market to pick up our CSA and standing weekly order for chicken, eggs, beef and pork. It can be a lot of work, but it pays off in the way I feel.
Curvature of the Mind now with 3D
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So your response to my point that you are wrong is to agree that you are wrong. Excellent, we are getting somewhere. They are not vegetarians as you stated originally, but omniverous and eaters of meat. So glad we cleared up the fact that Chimps and Gorillas kill and eat other animals. I notice, once more, that you cite no sources. Why, are they too hard to find. My point is not that you can develope on a vegan diet, (Note, not a Vegetarian Diet, which is a completely different thing). You also agree that suppliments are required. These suppliments aare not available in the wild, so guess what, I am right. Veganism is dangerous unless sufficient artificial and processed suppliments are provided. At least you are finally seeing that I am right and that you are in agreement with me. To sum up. Chimps eat meat - you agree. Gorillas eta meat - you agree. Vegan diet is insufficient for healthy living - you agree. (Vegan diet suplimented with pill et al is ok, but the basic diet leads to malnutrition.)
------------------------------------ I will never again mention that I was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel. Dalek Dave CCC Link[^] Trolls[^]
This is what I stated:"Tell me, just how much meat do other primates eat? Chimpanzees, Gorillas, with their 'forward pointing eyes' and 'sharp teeth'? The answer is very rarely. And I am not sure they would feed any of the meat to their babies since what footage I have seen of them doing so seems to be a male only event." I then provided links that stated that they eat meat about 5% of the time, and that it is mostly males who do. I then pointed out that the report you linked to stated that a cooked vegan diet would have returned the child to normal growth and that it was the uncooked nature of the diet, not the fact that it was vegan that did the damage thus countering your assertion that a vegan diet is inherently bad. I dont know whether you are having trouble reading, understanding, or accepting when you are wrong, but for sure, its one of these.
"If climate has not "tipped" in over 4 billion years it's not going to tip now due to mankind." Richard S. Lindzen, Atmospheric Physicist, IPCC "It does not matter who you are, or how smart you are, or what title you have, or how many of you here are, and certainly not how many papers your side has published, if your prediction is wrong then your hypothesis is wrong. Period." Professor Richard Feynman
modified on Thursday, March 31, 2011 4:24 AM
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fat_boy wrote:
But they didnt Ian. They dint feed the baby meat OR vegetables. Only breast milk.
Breast milk generated by a vegan diet.
fat_boy wrote:
Many many cultures have only a very limited access to meat, and many promates are almost completely vegetarian.
Note my added emphasis. You seem to be missing the difference between eating a small amount of meat (Enough to get the necessary nutrients) and eating none at all.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels)In fact Janeists never eat meat. Go wiki it. And they have perfectly healthy kids. The fact is that breast milk regardless of the mothers diet is not good enough to feed a child on entirely to such an age. Fact. Accept it and stop throwing up pathetic arguments.
"If climate has not "tipped" in over 4 billion years it's not going to tip now due to mankind." Richard S. Lindzen, Atmospheric Physicist, IPCC "It does not matter who you are, or how smart you are, or what title you have, or how many of you here are, and certainly not how many papers your side has published, if your prediction is wrong then your hypothesis is wrong. Period." Professor Richard Feynman
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In fact Janeists never eat meat. Go wiki it. And they have perfectly healthy kids. The fact is that breast milk regardless of the mothers diet is not good enough to feed a child on entirely to such an age. Fact. Accept it and stop throwing up pathetic arguments.
"If climate has not "tipped" in over 4 billion years it's not going to tip now due to mankind." Richard S. Lindzen, Atmospheric Physicist, IPCC "It does not matter who you are, or how smart you are, or what title you have, or how many of you here are, and certainly not how many papers your side has published, if your prediction is wrong then your hypothesis is wrong. Period." Professor Richard Feynman
fat_boy wrote:
The fact is that breast milk regardless of the mothers diet is not good enough to feed a child on entirely to such an age.
Evidence?
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Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels) -
fat_boy wrote:
The fact is that breast milk regardless of the mothers diet is not good enough to feed a child on entirely to such an age.
Evidence?
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Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels)Er, it kills them. Thats what this thread is about.
"If climate has not "tipped" in over 4 billion years it's not going to tip now due to mankind." Richard S. Lindzen, Atmospheric Physicist, IPCC "It does not matter who you are, or how smart you are, or what title you have, or how many of you here are, and certainly not how many papers your side has published, if your prediction is wrong then your hypothesis is wrong. Period." Professor Richard Feynman
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Er, it kills them. Thats what this thread is about.
"If climate has not "tipped" in over 4 billion years it's not going to tip now due to mankind." Richard S. Lindzen, Atmospheric Physicist, IPCC "It does not matter who you are, or how smart you are, or what title you have, or how many of you here are, and certainly not how many papers your side has published, if your prediction is wrong then your hypothesis is wrong. Period." Professor Richard Feynman
This thread is about vegans. You're advocating that non-vegan breast milk is also insufficient, so let's see some evidence.
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Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels) -
This thread is about vegans. You're advocating that non-vegan breast milk is also insufficient, so let's see some evidence.
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Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels)No, actually you, and Dave are stating that vegan breast milk is inadequate, so why dont YOU go get the evidence.
"If climate has not "tipped" in over 4 billion years it's not going to tip now due to mankind." Richard S. Lindzen, Atmospheric Physicist, IPCC "It does not matter who you are, or how smart you are, or what title you have, or how many of you here are, and certainly not how many papers your side has published, if your prediction is wrong then your hypothesis is wrong. Period." Professor Richard Feynman
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No, actually you, and Dave are stating that vegan breast milk is inadequate, so why dont YOU go get the evidence.
"If climate has not "tipped" in over 4 billion years it's not going to tip now due to mankind." Richard S. Lindzen, Atmospheric Physicist, IPCC "It does not matter who you are, or how smart you are, or what title you have, or how many of you here are, and certainly not how many papers your side has published, if your prediction is wrong then your hypothesis is wrong. Period." Professor Richard Feynman
The article itself shows that vegan breast milk lacked the necessary nutrients. Either bring some evidence, or accept it.
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Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels) -
The article itself shows that vegan breast milk lacked the necessary nutrients. Either bring some evidence, or accept it.
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Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels)Yeah, sure Ian. It clearly stated vegan breast milk is lethal, thats how her other kid isnt 6 years old or some such and living quite happily. :laugh: --edit-- Oh, let me write your next post for you: "her 13 year old child was born before they were vegans" :laugh: Yeah sure Ian. All those vegan women in the world, all having babies, and all of them dying before they reach the age of one. Funny no ones noticed this before isnt it. Perhaps you should publish your remaarkable findings Ian, I am syure the world wil be ever gratefull to you for saving so many babies from malnutrition and death.
"If climate has not "tipped" in over 4 billion years it's not going to tip now due to mankind." Richard S. Lindzen, Atmospheric Physicist, IPCC "It does not matter who you are, or how smart you are, or what title you have, or how many of you here are, and certainly not how many papers your side has published, if your prediction is wrong then your hypothesis is wrong. Period." Professor Richard Feynman
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Yeah, sure Ian. It clearly stated vegan breast milk is lethal, thats how her other kid isnt 6 years old or some such and living quite happily. :laugh: --edit-- Oh, let me write your next post for you: "her 13 year old child was born before they were vegans" :laugh: Yeah sure Ian. All those vegan women in the world, all having babies, and all of them dying before they reach the age of one. Funny no ones noticed this before isnt it. Perhaps you should publish your remaarkable findings Ian, I am syure the world wil be ever gratefull to you for saving so many babies from malnutrition and death.
"If climate has not "tipped" in over 4 billion years it's not going to tip now due to mankind." Richard S. Lindzen, Atmospheric Physicist, IPCC "It does not matter who you are, or how smart you are, or what title you have, or how many of you here are, and certainly not how many papers your side has published, if your prediction is wrong then your hypothesis is wrong. Period." Professor Richard Feynman
The vitamin deficiency of a vegan diet is well established, and those parents weren't taking the necessary supplements that would have made everything just fine. You're just trying to twist my argument into to something you can disprove. Now I'll say one last time... If you're going to argue that the breastfeeding itself, regardless of the vegan diet, was the problem, then present some proof. Otherwise, this is just another AGW debate, and I'm tired of hopelessly trying to drill logic into your head.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels) -
The vitamin deficiency of a vegan diet is well established, and those parents weren't taking the necessary supplements that would have made everything just fine. You're just trying to twist my argument into to something you can disprove. Now I'll say one last time... If you're going to argue that the breastfeeding itself, regardless of the vegan diet, was the problem, then present some proof. Otherwise, this is just another AGW debate, and I'm tired of hopelessly trying to drill logic into your head.
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Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels)Ian Shlasko wrote:
The vitamin deficiency of a vegan diet is well established, and those parents weren't taking the necessary supplements that would have made everything just fine.
Says Ian off the top of his head without any proof at all. :laugh:
Ian Shlasko wrote:
Now I'll say one last time... If you're going to argue that the breastfeeding itself, regardless of the vegan diet, was the problem, then present some proof. Otherwise, this is just another AGW debate, and I'm tired of hopelessly trying to drill logic into your head.
Why you pompous arogant twat. You talk of logic yet you ignore the fact that there are loads of vegans in the world with healthy kids. What killed the child in this article was neglect by malnourishment. That happens to babies across the world regardless of their parents particular diets.
"If climate has not "tipped" in over 4 billion years it's not going to tip now due to mankind." Richard S. Lindzen, Atmospheric Physicist, IPCC "It does not matter who you are, or how smart you are, or what title you have, or how many of you here are, and certainly not how many papers your side has published, if your prediction is wrong then your hypothesis is wrong. Period." Professor Richard Feynman
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This is what I stated:"Tell me, just how much meat do other primates eat? Chimpanzees, Gorillas, with their 'forward pointing eyes' and 'sharp teeth'? The answer is very rarely. And I am not sure they would feed any of the meat to their babies since what footage I have seen of them doing so seems to be a male only event." I then provided links that stated that they eat meat about 5% of the time, and that it is mostly males who do. I then pointed out that the report you linked to stated that a cooked vegan diet would have returned the child to normal growth and that it was the uncooked nature of the diet, not the fact that it was vegan that did the damage thus countering your assertion that a vegan diet is inherently bad. I dont know whether you are having trouble reading, understanding, or accepting when you are wrong, but for sure, its one of these.
"If climate has not "tipped" in over 4 billion years it's not going to tip now due to mankind." Richard S. Lindzen, Atmospheric Physicist, IPCC "It does not matter who you are, or how smart you are, or what title you have, or how many of you here are, and certainly not how many papers your side has published, if your prediction is wrong then your hypothesis is wrong. Period." Professor Richard Feynman
modified on Thursday, March 31, 2011 4:24 AM
Chimps do not eat meat rarely as you state, it forms a very large proportion of their diet. The difference between your original statement and the truth is this. Yes, gorillas are PREDOMINANTLY vegetarian, but they do eat very small amounts of meat, to SUPPLIMENT the diet with the necessary nutrients. Regardless of how small the amount of meat is in the proportion of the diet is irrelevant, the fact they eat even that small amount means they are omnivours. End of story. I also stated that a purely vegan diet is bad. You disagreed, claiming that vegans took suppliments. That is a completely different thing. They are then Vegans with suppliments, not Vegans without suppliments. Without the suppliments they would be in trouble. Please think about this, you are responding to something that I never said. I did not say that a vegan diet with suppliments was bad did I?
------------------------------------ I will never again mention that I was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel. Dalek Dave CCC Link[^] Trolls[^]
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At least this vegetarian group admits that humans are omnivores. http://www.vrg.org/nutshell/omni.htm[^] Gorillas are the most vegetarian primates and they have the long intestines and bulging guts to prove it.
Curvature of the Mind now with 3D
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If you are an adult human being who wishes to go against your genetic, evolutionary and biological heritage and become a herbivore, then fine. It is wrong to impose those insane beliefs upon others. What with our funny forward pointing eyes, our ripping canine teeth and our strange arrangement of intestines and enzymes, all there simply to kill and eat meat, there is a no reason to become bovine like and just eat those vegetables. However, when those beliefs lead to the death of a child because of malnutrition, then you have a problem Like these morons.[^] There are protiens and nutrients in meat that are vital for development of children. Nutrients that cannot be obtained from any other sources. When Vegiwankers abuse children like this and stop their brains form developing properly then they deserve all they get.
------------------------------------ I will never again mention that I was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel. Dalek Dave CCC Link[^] Trolls[^]
IDK it isnt something to threaten nor harrass people over, when done correctly veganism nor vegetarinism possibly supervised by a nutritionist nor a psych pro As far as being imposed on I find it much more that people are smarter then what you give them credit for Needless to say I wont be posting moi ap on here, for now!!!