More Money or Less Money? C++ vs C#
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In the last thread I posted about C++/MFC and C#, I gathered that so many are really migrating to the C#, even from VB. OK, Here is what every body shoulkd think of as a biz minded coder: (at least I do!) -More C# programmers :( -More C# Applications :( -More Client Awareness (coz as all probably agreed that C# is easier!) :( X| -More Client Intereference/ Mind changings -Maybe more clients that will learn C# on their own and THEN we programmers/instructors will lose! :( you know that teaching C++ is more prfitable than teaching C# probably! :confused: -Less coding time :) -Less coding effort, brain test, creativity! :eek: -Less MONEY! :(:(:(:( ... more that I don't remember even! How much can you charge as a price for a C++/MFC project and how much on a C# version? Now who wants to make money and who wants to make MORE money?
ProIT wrote: How much can you charge as a price for a C++/MFC project and how much on a C# version? Who cares about the language a project is implemented? Programmers. No one else cares. If you are selling software to programmers, you may see them paying more on a templated C++ solution because it comes with sources. For everyone else, whatever does the job is good. Do you think that if Chris coded Codeproject in pure ISAPI or ATL Server templates someone would pay more for advertising on CP? It's the same with your software. When I'm using a software, if it solves my BIG problem, has a highly usable interface, and its performance do not interfere with my work, I would pay lots of money. On the opposite side, I recently saw an ASM version of Notepad which sucked. It's a crippled version of Notepad, and even didn't have all the features Notepad has. The "advantage"? It's a 7 Kb .EXE program. Now, I would pay much more money for this editor[^], even if it's made in C# and uses almost 1000 times the memory. (FYI, sharpDevelop is free) I see dumb people
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Michael P Butler wrote: Embedded Software that's only because no-one has created a compiler to do that yet - doesn't mean it can't be done. Also I think that we can have .NET on the PocketPC so its getting there or is already there since it could be classed as embedded software
Technically speaking the dictionary would define Visual Basic users as programmers.
But here again, a very generalized, liberal definition is being employed and it's wrong
- just plain wrong - Tom Archer 5/12/02Commercial quality games such as Quake, Unreal etc. Michael Fat bottomed girls You make the rockin' world go round -- Queen
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Colin Davies wrote: You might argue. "But smart C# will be able to do what C++ coders do." well thats Not True ! Name one programming task that you can do in C++ that you can't do in C#
Technically speaking the dictionary would define Visual Basic users as programmers.
But here again, a very generalized, liberal definition is being employed and it's wrong
- just plain wrong - Tom Archer 5/12/02 -
just because C# is an easier language - does not mean the money will be less - you should get good money an any language if you are good at programming - C++ tends to get more money as it is more powerful and in the end it is easier to do more complex stuff using C++ that it is in VB - but it is easier to do simple UIs in VB than say MFC (I still thing good UIs are more of an art than programming - I am no good at them and I have to work damn hard to get the UI right). ProIT wrote: Less coding time C# does mean less coding time - which therefore means more chance of keeping to schedule - less chance of late delivery penalty - higher chance of a raise (for you permies) ,renewal (for us indies). ProIT wrote: Less coding effort more like less redoing the same crap that you did last week as you mght actually be able to re-use something that you wrote last week in VB.NET and now want to use in your current C# project - giving you time to concentrate on the task. - see above ProIT wrote: More Client Intereference/ Mind changings every time the client interferes beyond the spec make sure they know it will knock on to the delivery time. Also the more they understand a language the less likely they will try to add extras. A simple syntax language does not mean simple code for a task - a complex prgramming task is still a complex programming task no matter what the language. my favourite language for speed of development is OCCAM* but then I was using it for parallel programming and it is is ideally structured for doing that part of the task. However the neural network code that went with it was just as complex in OCCAM as it was in C++. *I wonder if we could get the PAR constuct from OCCAM into C#
Technically speaking the dictionary would define Visual Basic users as programmers.
But here again, a very generalized, liberal definition is being employed and it's wrong
- just plain wrong - Tom Archer 5/12/02Shaun Wilde wrote: However the neural network code that went with it was just as complex in OCCAM as it was in C++. You made a NN in a parallel language ?! I'm training a perceptron right now and I'm wondering if there are any parallel algorithms which would allow me to split the processing between two machines. I made the learning faster using RPROP, but I still can't see how can I split processing between machines or threads. I see dumb people
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Commercial quality games such as Quake, Unreal etc. Michael Fat bottomed girls You make the rockin' world go round -- Queen
Michael P Butler wrote: Commercial quality games such as Quake, Unreal etc. Why? Are you saying it can't be done? Just because it isn't, doesn't mean it can't.
Technically speaking the dictionary would define Visual Basic users as programmers.
But here again, a very generalized, liberal definition is being employed and it's wrong
- just plain wrong - Tom Archer 5/12/02 -
Shaun Wilde wrote: However the neural network code that went with it was just as complex in OCCAM as it was in C++. You made a NN in a parallel language ?! I'm training a perceptron right now and I'm wondering if there are any parallel algorithms which would allow me to split the processing between two machines. I made the learning faster using RPROP, but I still can't see how can I split processing between machines or threads. I see dumb people
Daniel Turini wrote: parallel algorithms which would allow me to split the processing between two machines. try google - RPROP parallel - something pops up - a lot better than 10 years ago you had to scour the publication lists and journals to find related publications
Technically speaking the dictionary would define Visual Basic users as programmers.
But here again, a very generalized, liberal definition is being employed and it's wrong
- just plain wrong - Tom Archer 5/12/02 -
In the last thread I posted about C++/MFC and C#, I gathered that so many are really migrating to the C#, even from VB. OK, Here is what every body shoulkd think of as a biz minded coder: (at least I do!) -More C# programmers :( -More C# Applications :( -More Client Awareness (coz as all probably agreed that C# is easier!) :( X| -More Client Intereference/ Mind changings -Maybe more clients that will learn C# on their own and THEN we programmers/instructors will lose! :( you know that teaching C++ is more prfitable than teaching C# probably! :confused: -Less coding time :) -Less coding effort, brain test, creativity! :eek: -Less MONEY! :(:(:(:( ... more that I don't remember even! How much can you charge as a price for a C++/MFC project and how much on a C# version? Now who wants to make money and who wants to make MORE money?
This is dumb - people want apps, not apps written in language X. If they do choose the language, they will likely want one they know they can find coders for, and one that marketing has told them is cool. That's why VB programmers make more money than people who clean pools, when the skill level is about the same. Also, when you deliver a project in less time, after submitting a quote, the net result is *more* money. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002 C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002 Again, you can screw up a C/C++ program just as easily as a VB program. OK, maybe not as easily, but it's certainly doable. - Jamie Nordmeyer - 15-Nov-2002
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In the last thread I posted about C++/MFC and C#, I gathered that so many are really migrating to the C#, even from VB. OK, Here is what every body shoulkd think of as a biz minded coder: (at least I do!) -More C# programmers :( -More C# Applications :( -More Client Awareness (coz as all probably agreed that C# is easier!) :( X| -More Client Intereference/ Mind changings -Maybe more clients that will learn C# on their own and THEN we programmers/instructors will lose! :( you know that teaching C++ is more prfitable than teaching C# probably! :confused: -Less coding time :) -Less coding effort, brain test, creativity! :eek: -Less MONEY! :(:(:(:( ... more that I don't remember even! How much can you charge as a price for a C++/MFC project and how much on a C# version? Now who wants to make money and who wants to make MORE money?
I've recently been involved in the conversion of a large activeX/MFC/ATL control to a C#/.NET control. I have not found C# to be all that much "easier". Complex applications are complex regardless of the language used. If you want make a career of using C++ to design forms based windows applications, go for it. But my advice would be to either stick with C++ and find work doing more back end/system related stuff, or if you are going to stay in the windows desktop development world, keep up with the tools available to do that kind of work. "Any clod can have the facts, but having opinions is an art." Charles McCabe, San Francisco Chronicle
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What the hell are you talking about? ------- signature starts "...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001 Please review the Legal Disclaimer in my bio. ------- signature ends
It's good to have you back, John. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002 C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002 Again, you can screw up a C/C++ program just as easily as a VB program. OK, maybe not as easily, but it's certainly doable. - Jamie Nordmeyer - 15-Nov-2002
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CAMEL uses assembler not C++ so your point is moot - I'd do exactly the same from .NET except use a COM object howver there is a lot of good stuff exposed via the System.Management class (but then this is API not language) C++ is a language, C# is a language (to not offend anyone I will not comment on VB) .NET Framework is an API - the Windows API (is, not surprisingly, an API)
Technically speaking the dictionary would define Visual Basic users as programmers.
But here again, a very generalized, liberal definition is being employed and it's wrong
- just plain wrong - Tom Archer 5/12/02 -
A true biz minded coder only considers profit, The only variation is the term. Ok who's migrating ? My guess Smart VBians and C++ coders who couldn't cut it. That will allow those left in C++ to even more elite and for C++ to grow without having to consider dull coders. You might argue. "But smart C# will be able to do what C++ coders do." well thats Not True ! My bet, "Long term" C++ coders will profit more. Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
You are the intrepid one, always willing to leap into the fray! A serious character flaw, I might add, but entertaining. Said by Roger Wright about me.
Colin Davies wrote: C++ coders who couldn't cut it. Thanks very much..... Actually, I am not 'migrating' from C++, but from VBScript. ASP.NET *rules*. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002 C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002 Again, you can screw up a C/C++ program just as easily as a VB program. OK, maybe not as easily, but it's certainly doable. - Jamie Nordmeyer - 15-Nov-2002
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It's good to have you back, John. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002 C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002 Again, you can screw up a C/C++ program just as easily as a VB program. OK, maybe not as easily, but it's certainly doable. - Jamie Nordmeyer - 15-Nov-2002
I'm kinda like the professional gun slinger that small western towns hired to get rid of the riff-raff, and while the job is being done, everybody kinda looks the other way. :) ------- signature starts "...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001 Please review the Legal Disclaimer in my bio. ------- signature ends
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Colin Davies wrote: You might argue. "But smart C# will be able to do what C++ coders do." well thats Not True ! Name one programming task that you can do in C++ that you can't do in C#
Technically speaking the dictionary would define Visual Basic users as programmers.
But here again, a very generalized, liberal definition is being employed and it's wrong
- just plain wrong - Tom Archer 5/12/02Compile an app that doesn't need anything other than a commandline? ------- signature starts "...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001 Please review the Legal Disclaimer in my bio. ------- signature ends
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Compile an app that doesn't need anything other than a commandline? ------- signature starts "...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001 Please review the Legal Disclaimer in my bio. ------- signature ends
what do you mean? you can make a console app that takes in a commandline in C#
Technically speaking the dictionary would define Visual Basic users as programmers.
But here again, a very generalized, liberal definition is being employed and it's wrong
- just plain wrong - Tom Archer 5/12/02 -
In the last thread I posted about C++/MFC and C#, I gathered that so many are really migrating to the C#, even from VB. OK, Here is what every body shoulkd think of as a biz minded coder: (at least I do!) -More C# programmers :( -More C# Applications :( -More Client Awareness (coz as all probably agreed that C# is easier!) :( X| -More Client Intereference/ Mind changings -Maybe more clients that will learn C# on their own and THEN we programmers/instructors will lose! :( you know that teaching C++ is more prfitable than teaching C# probably! :confused: -Less coding time :) -Less coding effort, brain test, creativity! :eek: -Less MONEY! :(:(:(:( ... more that I don't remember even! How much can you charge as a price for a C++/MFC project and how much on a C# version? Now who wants to make money and who wants to make MORE money?
Maybe you're just not willing/able to learn something new? -More C# programmers, More C# Applications - who cares? -More Client Awareness - huh? -More Client Intereference/ Mind changings - More? Impossible... Problems with mind-changhing clients are rooted in contract and design problems, not the progging language. -Maybe more clients that will learn C#... Someone has to teach them, they have to hire someone, etc. -Less coding time - :jig: -Less coding effort, brain test, creativity! - huh? If you wanna coding effort or brain test, join the Obfuscated C contest. And creativity? You can be creative in VB (or so I'm told :cool: ). -Less MONEY! - :looking for lart: You can charge only as much as the client is willing to pay (unless you're a SUN or IBM consultant, of course..). If you can produce it cheaper using .NET - where's your problem? C# lessens development time and production cost. The rest is a question of the market.
If I could find a souvenir / just to prove the world was here [sighist]
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I've recently been involved in the conversion of a large activeX/MFC/ATL control to a C#/.NET control. I have not found C# to be all that much "easier". Complex applications are complex regardless of the language used. If you want make a career of using C++ to design forms based windows applications, go for it. But my advice would be to either stick with C++ and find work doing more back end/system related stuff, or if you are going to stay in the windows desktop development world, keep up with the tools available to do that kind of work. "Any clod can have the facts, but having opinions is an art." Charles McCabe, San Francisco Chronicle
Stan Shannon wrote: But my advice would be to either stick with C++ and find work doing more back end/system related stuff, The problem is that is where Java is creeping in. I've started to hate it. It just makes me shudder ...so........slow......must.....use......32....processors...to.....make....coffee. It seems more and more that businesses don't want to use C++ on the server side as good c++ guys are hard to come by compared to other groups of programmer.
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Colin Davies wrote: You might argue. "But smart C# will be able to do what C++ coders do." well thats Not True ! Name one programming task that you can do in C++ that you can't do in C#
Technically speaking the dictionary would define Visual Basic users as programmers.
But here again, a very generalized, liberal definition is being employed and it's wrong
- just plain wrong - Tom Archer 5/12/02Write a system kernel; game requiring highly optimized code... Lowlevel programming, e.g. inline assembly... :) (had to eat the troll bait.) evilpen dot net::msn messenger:negacao@hotmail.com
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Write a system kernel; game requiring highly optimized code... Lowlevel programming, e.g. inline assembly... :) (had to eat the troll bait.) evilpen dot net::msn messenger:negacao@hotmail.com
Kristopher wrote: inline assembly I said C++ - everything becomes assembly in the end Kristopher wrote: had to eat the troll bait it wasn't intended to be :)
Technically speaking the dictionary would define Visual Basic users as programmers.
But here again, a very generalized, liberal definition is being employed and it's wrong
- just plain wrong - Tom Archer 5/12/02 -
Stan Shannon wrote: But my advice would be to either stick with C++ and find work doing more back end/system related stuff, The problem is that is where Java is creeping in. I've started to hate it. It just makes me shudder ...so........slow......must.....use......32....processors...to.....make....coffee. It seems more and more that businesses don't want to use C++ on the server side as good c++ guys are hard to come by compared to other groups of programmer.
Maybe. But competition is a good thing. Either Java will evolve or it will die. If C++ is too complicated to be productive with, and if you have to have the IQ of Albert Einstien to work with it, than it will die. That is as things should be. Not to ignore the role of marketing hype in all of this, but even so, it is ultimately about the real productive power of a given technology in the market place. Frankly, I feel that in another five years or so Java will be about as significant as Smalltalk. "Any clod can have the facts, but having opinions is an art." Charles McCabe, San Francisco Chronicle
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A program that detects my Athlon 650Mhz as an Athlon 407Mhz? I'm pretty sure I can come up with VB code that does it. BTW, AMD never did an Athlon 407Mhz. I see dumb people
