Why is it that we don't have a FairTax in the USA? Would it work in other countries too?
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In Florida our sales tax is tiered based on the type of good being purchases. Ie, food-stuffs have significantly less tax that other items. But it isn't carried to far. Mostly just a difference between Food, Prepared Food, and Other. However, such a tiered system could allow the impoverished a welcome tax break since necessary food items could go un-taxed (fair for all that eat) whereas other items could carry different tax rates. I did not mean to suggest tiered based on income. Such a tiering proposal would eliminate the proviso in the "Fair-Tax" plan of issue refunds every year. The IRS, will still be there, Read the fair tax book, I have. Also, notice, in the very book outlining the complete proposal, the payroll tax does not go away, it is suggested to go away. The law will stay on the books that allows it. Again, I am merely speaking from the book I read from whatever senator it was that proposed it. I don't usually read such things but it was shoved under my nose. The problem is most individuals, associate fair tax with flat tax which are two different proposals. The fair tax plan is littered with political double speak and loop holes.
Need custom software developed? I do custom programming based primarily on MS tools with an emphasis on C# development and consulting. I also do Android Programming as I find it a refreshing break from the MS. "And they, since they Were not the one dead, turned to their affairs" -- Robert Frost
Ennis Ray Lynch, Jr. wrote:
The fair tax plan is littered with political double speak and loop holes.
what proponents of all magic tax plans fail to admit is that their beautiful, logical, crystalline tax plan will also be immediately riddled with new loopholes and tax breaks. that is how politics works: taxes are tweaked to benefit benefactors. always. we could end all loopholes in our current system too, but they'd be right back in, before the ink was dry on the bill that eliminated them. in other words "no loopholes!" is a sham argument.
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mindserve wrote:
it appears that now 50% of the people have done this with the governments blessing
that "50% don't pay anything" line is misleading at best, totally false at worst. that "50%" does pay SS & Medicare taxes. they pay sales, property and gas taxes like everybody else, too. they probably end up paying state income taxes, too. they get a refund on federal income tax. but not on all the other taxes. and, don't forget: the median income (single earner) in the US is under $30K/yr. so they get a break from their fed income tax. big deal. we're not talking about people livin large, here.
50% don't pay Federal "income" taxes. Yes, they might very well pay property taxes but that's at the county level and only if they own a home. They might pay sales tax and "State" income tax but again, that's at the state level not Federal level. What I am referring to is the FairTax which is at a Federal level not state or county. BTW, They have to pay federal income taxes to get refunds or be entitled to Earned Income Credits. So if they have kids, the government gives them extra money. Have no kids and you pay your own way. When those kids grow up, and they do...then you will see how your income which has not gone up will now be taxed and you will have even less to live on. Think you weren't livin large as you say...you are now livin really really tight.
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http://www.amazon.com/FairTax-Book-Neal-Boortz/dp/0060875410[^] And I stand corrected, Congressman John Linder not Senator. Read the book, it is the proposal. Everything else is filtered by other peoples opinions.
Need custom software developed? I do custom programming based primarily on MS tools with an emphasis on C# development and consulting. I also do Android Programming as I find it a refreshing break from the MS. "And they, since they Were not the one dead, turned to their affairs" -- Robert Frost
From what I have read and from what others have read it's a positive reaction , not negative. There are always going to be things that don't work in any system but I do believe in the FairTax as do many others. Heck, if it doesn't work we can always go back to our old system or a hybrid system.
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50% don't pay Federal "income" taxes. Yes, they might very well pay property taxes but that's at the county level and only if they own a home. They might pay sales tax and "State" income tax but again, that's at the state level not Federal level. What I am referring to is the FairTax which is at a Federal level not state or county. BTW, They have to pay federal income taxes to get refunds or be entitled to Earned Income Credits. So if they have kids, the government gives them extra money. Have no kids and you pay your own way. When those kids grow up, and they do...then you will see how your income which has not gone up will now be taxed and you will have even less to live on. Think you weren't livin large as you say...you are now livin really really tight.
mindserve wrote:
Yes, they might very well pay property taxes but that's at the county level and only if they own a home.
right, etc.. but, this is why the "50% don't pay taxes" line is misleading. those people do pay taxes, all the same taxes most people do. they just get a refund on this one specific tax.
mindserve wrote:
So if they have kids, the government gives them extra money.
right. it's a tax credit. as is the much larger one that people get for merely owning a home. odd how i never hear people complaining about that one - except when congress makes noises about ending it. then people complain!
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Dan Neely wrote:
The super rich who're able to save a much larger fraction of their income than most people at our level still would end up paying less.
But HWY do people save money? Its to have the security of spending in the future. Eventually this money will come into the system as goods purchases, whereupon it gets taxed. The government taxes money when it changes hands. Thus income tax, CGT, inheritance, VAT etc etc etc, as well as various other taxes for services such as local council tax, road tax etc. It doesnt matter whether you tax money at earning or spending, you will tax it because it will be spent.
Dr D Evans "The whole idea that carbon dioxide is the main cause of the recent global warming is based on a guess that was proved false by empirical evidence during the 1990s" financialpost
fat_boy wrote:
The government taxes money when it changes hands. Thus income tax, CGT, inheritance, VAT etc etc etc, as well as various other taxes for services such as local council tax, road tax etc.
and this is why proponents of these tax schemes have worked like mad to end the US's "estate" tax.
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Someone earns an extra £100 a year and gets to keep all of it. I earn an extra £100, I get to keep £48 of it. Hardly fair, considering how much tax I am already paying. If there is to be fairness, then tax all at the same level.
------------------------------------ I will never again mention that I was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel. Dalek Dave CCC Link[^] Trolls[^]
Dalek Dave wrote:
I earn an extra £100, I get to keep £48 of it.
but you already kept 100% of the "extra" money from the bracket that that other "someone" didn't earn enough to break out of. right?
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mindserve wrote:
Yes, they might very well pay property taxes but that's at the county level and only if they own a home.
right, etc.. but, this is why the "50% don't pay taxes" line is misleading. those people do pay taxes, all the same taxes most people do. they just get a refund on this one specific tax.
mindserve wrote:
So if they have kids, the government gives them extra money.
right. it's a tax credit. as is the much larger one that people get for merely owning a home. odd how i never hear people complaining about that one - except when congress makes noises about ending it. then people complain!
We are talking about two different things. You are talking about state taxes, property taxes at the county and state levels...I am talking about income tax at the federal level. They say 50% do not pay taxes..federal taxes. They don't always pay upfront as you think either. They can pay nothing depending on how many dependents they have. Withholding tax is computed based on that and if you have a few kids and are single you pay no income tax..as if it were a prebate. So that's won't change under the fair tax. Now that mama with 4 kids and no husband won't have any taxes at all anyway and she will get her prebate card when she wants to buy food or a car or clothing etc. Tax credits for the poor..tax credits for the rich and the middle get what?
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mindserve wrote:
Yes, they might very well pay property taxes but that's at the county level and only if they own a home.
right, etc.. but, this is why the "50% don't pay taxes" line is misleading. those people do pay taxes, all the same taxes most people do. they just get a refund on this one specific tax.
mindserve wrote:
So if they have kids, the government gives them extra money.
right. it's a tax credit. as is the much larger one that people get for merely owning a home. odd how i never hear people complaining about that one - except when congress makes noises about ending it. then people complain!
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2011/apr/18/us-economy-credit-rating[^] Here is what's wrong. We have too much debt. Now we will just raise the debt ceiling and then what? How far can this go on until it does collapse. Republicans want to cut programs. Democrats want to raise taxes. Really, this is just my opinion but I don't see how cutting programs or raising taxes will trim 14 trillion dollars. I am not sure we in the US can get out of this mess either. I don't want to see social security go away or medicaid or medicare. But I don't want to have to pay more in taxes out of my paycheck either. Between taxes and insurance ( health insurance) 1/2 of my paycheck is gone. GONE ! Sometimes I don't think it pays to work at all. Maybe I should do like Brad and Angelina and just go around and pick up kids to adopt. I bet I would get lots of tax breaks that way.
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We are talking about two different things. You are talking about state taxes, property taxes at the county and state levels...I am talking about income tax at the federal level. They say 50% do not pay taxes..federal taxes. They don't always pay upfront as you think either. They can pay nothing depending on how many dependents they have. Withholding tax is computed based on that and if you have a few kids and are single you pay no income tax..as if it were a prebate. So that's won't change under the fair tax. Now that mama with 4 kids and no husband won't have any taxes at all anyway and she will get her prebate card when she wants to buy food or a car or clothing etc. Tax credits for the poor..tax credits for the rich and the middle get what?
mindserve wrote:
We are talking about two different things.
yes. i'm talking about the phrase that people use to describe the situation you're describing. people say "half of Americans don't even pay no income tax! dagnabbit!" it's made without qualification, usually by people who want to complain about freeloaders. and it's only after much effort that they will admit that those people do, in fact, pay taxes. they just get a refund on one specific tax.
mindserve wrote:
They say 50% do not pay taxes..federal taxes.
and that's not even true. SS and Medicare are both federal taxes. 15% (if you count the employer portion)
mindserve wrote:
Tax credits for the poor..tax credits for the rich and the middle get what?
well, first, define "middle". EITC applies up to the mid-$40Ks. the housing credit applies to everyone who has a house. there are various child credits, up to $85K. there are 'savings' credits. the 401k system is a huge tax benefit for anyone who pays. if you have a job that has health benefits, the money you spend on health insurance is exempt from taxes. etc. etc. etc. etc.
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http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2011/apr/18/us-economy-credit-rating[^] Here is what's wrong. We have too much debt. Now we will just raise the debt ceiling and then what? How far can this go on until it does collapse. Republicans want to cut programs. Democrats want to raise taxes. Really, this is just my opinion but I don't see how cutting programs or raising taxes will trim 14 trillion dollars. I am not sure we in the US can get out of this mess either. I don't want to see social security go away or medicaid or medicare. But I don't want to have to pay more in taxes out of my paycheck either. Between taxes and insurance ( health insurance) 1/2 of my paycheck is gone. GONE ! Sometimes I don't think it pays to work at all. Maybe I should do like Brad and Angelina and just go around and pick up kids to adopt. I bet I would get lots of tax breaks that way.
mindserve wrote:
How far can this go on until it does collapse.
not forever. but we're not there yet.
mindserve wrote:
Really, this is just my opinion but I don't see how cutting programs or raising taxes will trim 14 trillion dollars.
four things: 1. a deficit is what happens when the govt spends more than it takes in. 2. the govt is taking in less than it did in 2000 because: 2a. the Bush tax cuts reduced the amount govt income relative to the overall economy. 2b. the recession reduced the overall economy. 3. spending went up temporarily due to bailouts and stimulus. what we need to do to get back to the balanced budget that Clinton had is: 1. get out of the recession. 2. return tax levels to where they were previously, probably even a little higher. we are enjoying historically low tax rates right now (especially the rich), but there is abundant evidence that those low rates do not generate employment like tax fetishists claim;businesses are making record profits, CEO salary is at historic levels, but businesses are not hiring. and there is no evidence that the rich will become less productive, or pack up and leave, if rates go higher.
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Dont forget some products are alreay VAT exempt because they are basics. All that needs to be done to keep the tax fair ist to set the goods that are exempt at a reasonable level. Basic food stufs, medcines, hygene products and so on. And dont forget the so called 'poor' in the western world live like lords compared to the poor in the undeveloped part of the world. The idea of poor and ric is relative and doesnt imply privation in the west so even today the 'poor' are quite happy to spend money on luxury good such as expensive cars, TVs. DVDs., videos, cigarettes, drink, holidays, etc etc etc. The rich wont be let off either sicne the products they buy, big cars, boats, big houses, eating out and so on are going to get a big increase in price. However, because of the self collecting nature of the tax there will be no more tax evasion. And due to the simplicity the cost of government is massively reduced, thus meaning LESS tac needs collecting. And MORE people can work productively in the economy. Its a good system, do the maths, set the figures as required and everyones happy.
Dr D Evans "The whole idea that carbon dioxide is the main cause of the recent global warming is based on a guess that was proved false by empirical evidence during the 1990s" financialpost
fat_boy wrote:
Dont forget some products are alreay VAT exempt because they are basics.
Not o'er here, lowest VAT is 6%, and that goes for basic stuff. The proposed plan was to abandon the lower rates and put a 19% on everything.
fat_boy wrote:
All that needs to be done to keep the tax fair ist to set the goods that are exempt at a reasonable level. Basic food stufs, medcines, hygene products and so on.
..you might also want to explain how you think that's more fair than the current system. Next, I'd like to see you talk your way out of inflation.
fat_boy wrote:
The rich wont be let off either sicne the products they buy, big cars, boats, big houses, eating out and so on are going to get a big increase in price.
However, because of the self collecting nature of the tax there will be no more tax evasion.
You're certainly not Dutch! You can build a career on tax-evasion here :)
fat_boy wrote:
Its a good system, do the maths, set the figures as required and everyones happy.
Yes, for a while - until the worker notices that the rich man doesn't pay the taxes when buying that yacht - it's simply leased and billed to the wifes' company. ..and that's when the guillotines come out :)
I are Troll :suss:
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mindserve wrote:
We are talking about two different things.
yes. i'm talking about the phrase that people use to describe the situation you're describing. people say "half of Americans don't even pay no income tax! dagnabbit!" it's made without qualification, usually by people who want to complain about freeloaders. and it's only after much effort that they will admit that those people do, in fact, pay taxes. they just get a refund on one specific tax.
mindserve wrote:
They say 50% do not pay taxes..federal taxes.
and that's not even true. SS and Medicare are both federal taxes. 15% (if you count the employer portion)
mindserve wrote:
Tax credits for the poor..tax credits for the rich and the middle get what?
well, first, define "middle". EITC applies up to the mid-$40Ks. the housing credit applies to everyone who has a house. there are various child credits, up to $85K. there are 'savings' credits. the 401k system is a huge tax benefit for anyone who pays. if you have a job that has health benefits, the money you spend on health insurance is exempt from taxes. etc. etc. etc. etc.
Middle class. That's the middle. What is middle class. Well, rich people are those making $250K or more a year. Poverty level is about 11K a year. Everyone else is in the middle. That's most of America I think. dagnabbit? LOL ! ok, you are playing the devils advocate but dagnabbit? Don't you have to file Schedule A to get the housing or mortgage interest deduction? Most people don't. They don't because the standard deduction for the middle class is usually higher than the interest they pay on the mtg. People in the middle don't have fancy expensive homes. If you have a 401K you are lucky. Not everyone does and not every employer contributes. If you have a job that has health benefits you pay for the insurance out of your paycheck and it's hefty. Big deal , so they take off $158 dollars and then tax you on the balance. You think it helps? It doesn't. Try paying for dental and disability and health insurance and then social security and medicare and federal income tax. I can tell you it's a big hit every week. Then add in a few dollars for charity contributions and you can see how quickly it all adds up.
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You do pave the roads you drive on..with your dollars you do pay for that. People do try to get around the system, but it appears that now 50% of the people have done this with the governments blessing. I am not sure why I have to foot the bill for the other 50% that are not paying taxes at all. Earned Income Credit...so if you just make babies and more babies until your eggs run out the government will help you with that. How about you don't have any kids or just have one that you can afford and don't expect the government to help out. Be responsible and learn to pay your own way..that is my motto in life. I don't take, I don't expect and I pay in to the system. Why is that so hard for some people?
mindserve wrote:
You do pave the roads you drive on..
I was actually referring to the phyiscal work and gathering material to do so. I mentioned the items I did because our taxes cover the costs of all of those.
mindserve wrote:
How about you don't have any kids or just have one that you can afford and don't expect the government to help out. Be responsible and learn to pay your own way..that is my motto in life.
I agree. I can argue both ways on this. My parents raised 10 children (8 by birth.) My dad could afford it. Never got government assistance. He is extremely good with his money! I have to ask you, do you have children? If not, this isn't an area you should be arguing. I have 3 of my own. My wife has 3 from her previous marriage. It costs money to raise them! If I can get a discount on my taxes by raising them, I'll raise them and take every break I can! I'm not going to have baby after baby for that. I've in places (California) where that is all people did. I agree with you. Be responsible and learn to pay your own way.
mindserve wrote:
I don't take, I don't expect and I pay in to the system. Why is that so hard for some people?
One word...selfishness.
If you know what I mean...and I think you do...
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Middle class. That's the middle. What is middle class. Well, rich people are those making $250K or more a year. Poverty level is about 11K a year. Everyone else is in the middle. That's most of America I think. dagnabbit? LOL ! ok, you are playing the devils advocate but dagnabbit? Don't you have to file Schedule A to get the housing or mortgage interest deduction? Most people don't. They don't because the standard deduction for the middle class is usually higher than the interest they pay on the mtg. People in the middle don't have fancy expensive homes. If you have a 401K you are lucky. Not everyone does and not every employer contributes. If you have a job that has health benefits you pay for the insurance out of your paycheck and it's hefty. Big deal , so they take off $158 dollars and then tax you on the balance. You think it helps? It doesn't. Try paying for dental and disability and health insurance and then social security and medicare and federal income tax. I can tell you it's a big hit every week. Then add in a few dollars for charity contributions and you can see how quickly it all adds up.
mindserve wrote:
People in the middle don't have fancy expensive homes.
don't need a fancy home. just need a mortgage. and if your range for "middle" includes people up to $250K, there will definitely be some 'fancy' homes in there.
mindserve wrote:
If you have a 401K you are lucky.
if you can afford to save, and if you don't have a 401k through an employer, there are plenty of other pre-tax retirement plans. IRA, SEP, etc..
mindserve wrote:
If you have a job that has health benefits you pay for the insurance out of your paycheck and it's hefty.
indeed it is. but it's pre-tax. and that's a loophole. want to hear people scream? threaten to take that away :)
mindserve wrote:
You think it helps? It doesn't.
i bet $158 is a lot of money to someone.
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mindserve wrote:
How far can this go on until it does collapse.
not forever. but we're not there yet.
mindserve wrote:
Really, this is just my opinion but I don't see how cutting programs or raising taxes will trim 14 trillion dollars.
four things: 1. a deficit is what happens when the govt spends more than it takes in. 2. the govt is taking in less than it did in 2000 because: 2a. the Bush tax cuts reduced the amount govt income relative to the overall economy. 2b. the recession reduced the overall economy. 3. spending went up temporarily due to bailouts and stimulus. what we need to do to get back to the balanced budget that Clinton had is: 1. get out of the recession. 2. return tax levels to where they were previously, probably even a little higher. we are enjoying historically low tax rates right now (especially the rich), but there is abundant evidence that those low rates do not generate employment like tax fetishists claim;businesses are making record profits, CEO salary is at historic levels, but businesses are not hiring. and there is no evidence that the rich will become less productive, or pack up and leave, if rates go higher.
People think we had a balanced budget during the clinton administration but I don't think so. I think the economy was good but only because of the tech bubble that eventually burst. Many of Bush #1's tax breaks went into effect during the Clinton administration. BTW, is a difference between the federal deficit and the federal debt to anyone who is following this thread. A deficit occurs when the government takes in less money than it spends in any particular year, which we are doing now, exponentially. so we have to cut out the freebies and raise taxes. Lets raise it for everyone with a FairTax. The national debt is the total amount the government owes and which is now the ceiling that needs to be raised so we can borrow more money ( from China ? Like we need that). And even if we do this and we will, we are in deep trouble if we cannot bring the deficit down. 14 trillion is an amount that could take decades to bring down if we can. Well, see this video. I am shocked too. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/5050407/US-backing-for-world-currency-stuns-markets.html[^]
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People think we had a balanced budget during the clinton administration but I don't think so. I think the economy was good but only because of the tech bubble that eventually burst. Many of Bush #1's tax breaks went into effect during the Clinton administration. BTW, is a difference between the federal deficit and the federal debt to anyone who is following this thread. A deficit occurs when the government takes in less money than it spends in any particular year, which we are doing now, exponentially. so we have to cut out the freebies and raise taxes. Lets raise it for everyone with a FairTax. The national debt is the total amount the government owes and which is now the ceiling that needs to be raised so we can borrow more money ( from China ? Like we need that). And even if we do this and we will, we are in deep trouble if we cannot bring the deficit down. 14 trillion is an amount that could take decades to bring down if we can. Well, see this video. I am shocked too. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/5050407/US-backing-for-world-currency-stuns-markets.html[^]
mindserve wrote:
. Many of Bush #1's
tax breaks went into effect during the Clinton administration.when i said "Bush tax breaks", i meant Bush Jr.
mindserve wrote:
Lets raise it for everyone with a FairTax.
your definition of "fair" is not universally shared. i don't think it's fair that the 50% of Americans who make $30K or less should be asked to give up 30% of their income just to soothe the delicate feelings of a handful of jackasses who feel put upon because they're suffering with having to pay an effective rate of 18%[^]
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mindserve wrote:
. Many of Bush #1's
tax breaks went into effect during the Clinton administration.when i said "Bush tax breaks", i meant Bush Jr.
mindserve wrote:
Lets raise it for everyone with a FairTax.
your definition of "fair" is not universally shared. i don't think it's fair that the 50% of Americans who make $30K or less should be asked to give up 30% of their income just to soothe the delicate feelings of a handful of jackasses who feel put upon because they're suffering with having to pay an effective rate of 18%[^]
it's 23% not 30%. Really, a FairTax is the way it should be. If we don't have a FairTax then we will end up with Vat taxes and other taxes. Or the government will have to cut medicare, medicaid and social security. There is no other way out of this. You said yourself we have to raise taxes. On whom? That 50% ? Why don't you ask them if they want to fork over more money to the government every week and lose the EIC and other tax breaks. That's what is going to happen anyway so lets do it now.
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Not sure how many of you in the USA are familiar with the FairTax movement. Since this is tax day here in the US I thought I would post and bring it to your attention. Especially since many of you are ISV and programmers working for yourselves. The FairTax would mean the elimination of all forms of income tax, including payroll taxes and medicare and Social Security tax. It would be replaced by a consumption tax on new items that are purchased. The only problem I have with this is that food and medicine would be taxed. A prebate would exist for those who earn less than X amount of dollars so they are not burdened with the tax. In my mind it seems to make sense since I can control what I purchase. I don't have to have that expensive new 52 inch tv. I do expect manufacturers to get around the tax by offering discounts on the merchandise, so that the items will still be affordable. That means prices in general will go down unless raw materials go up...ie oil goes up. How many of you know about the FairTax and if you are not in the USA would you think it would work in your own countries.?
Fairtax is a fraud. Check the fine print; they propose taxing everything that can be consumed and I mean everything. If your local city buys something, it will be taxed. If the state buys something, it will be taxed. The prebate thing is also a fraud; the government will remove that ASAP. If you give the government power to tax consumption, you will regret it. Fairtax claimes the IRS would go away. In name only! Someone has to collect these taxes and do audits. Moreover, collecting taxes on consumption is a lot more complicated than it appears and extremely prone to fraud.
mindserve wrote:
I do expect manufacturers to get around the tax by offering discounts on the merchandise, so that the items will still be affordable
No they wouldn't. All prices would go up. Moreover, the manufacturer would be paying tax on their consumption. Massive taxes since manufacturing is really expensive. Or are you going to advocate that the million dollar machine company X buys be excempt? Where does the excemption stop? If I'm a farmer and buy seed, is that taxed? What if it's a type of seed that I can eat? Now what?
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it's 23% not 30%. Really, a FairTax is the way it should be. If we don't have a FairTax then we will end up with Vat taxes and other taxes. Or the government will have to cut medicare, medicaid and social security. There is no other way out of this. You said yourself we have to raise taxes. On whom? That 50% ? Why don't you ask them if they want to fork over more money to the government every week and lose the EIC and other tax breaks. That's what is going to happen anyway so lets do it now.
mindserve wrote:
Really, a FairTax is the way it should be.
we disagree.
mindserve wrote:
Why don't you ask them if they want to fork over more money to the government every week and lose the EIC and other tax breaks.
i'm sure they would not like that. but perhaps more importantly, eliminating the EITC would not even dent the deficit. the annual cost of the EITC is on the order of a few tens of billions. a lot of money, but a tiny fraction of what we need.
mindserve wrote:
On whom? That 50%
frankly, i think all rates should go up. and i think they should go up even more for the truly wealthy. but let's not pretend that the EITC is responsible for our current situation.
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mindserve wrote:
it appears that now 50% of the people have done this with the governments blessing
that "50% don't pay anything" line is misleading at best, totally false at worst. that "50%" does pay SS & Medicare taxes. they pay sales, property and gas taxes like everybody else, too. they probably end up paying state income taxes, too. they get a refund on federal income tax. but not on all the other taxes. and, don't forget: the median income (single earner) in the US is under $30K/yr. so they get a break from their fed income tax. big deal. we're not talking about people livin large, here.
One problem with federal tax credits is that if you hit the sweet spot, you don't just zero out your income tax obligation, but can get back more than you paid in. My bigger complaint is the government making the tax code so complex in order to provide these credits. That creates opportunity for a lot of fraud. I have no problem paying taxes, but do have a problem with requiring a computer program to fill out even a simple tax return. I also like the idea that everyone pays some income tax (not just FICA and medicare, which are largely hidden taxes.)