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  4. The legacy of torture

The legacy of torture

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  • P Pete OHanlon

    Come to the UK. Our lords and masters practice the truly majestic technique of turning a blind eye.

    Forgive your enemies - it messes with their heads

    My blog | My articles | MoXAML PowerToys | Mole 2010 - debugging made easier - my favourite utility

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    Majerus
    wrote on last edited by
    #3

    I was unaware of that. The UK has state run torture chambers? As far a turning a blind eye is concerned, we have plenty of that in the US. You may have heard our current president talking about "looking forward, not backward."? None of those CIA torturers have been brought to justice, nor have any of those in the Bush administration who ordered it or wrote the "legal" justification for it.

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    • M Majerus

      I was unaware of that. The UK has state run torture chambers? As far a turning a blind eye is concerned, we have plenty of that in the US. You may have heard our current president talking about "looking forward, not backward."? None of those CIA torturers have been brought to justice, nor have any of those in the Bush administration who ordered it or wrote the "legal" justification for it.

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      Pete OHanlon
      wrote on last edited by
      #4

      Majerus wrote:

      The UK has state run torture chambers?

      No. There's been a scandal over here with the former government turning a blind eye to what's called rendition flights, but getting the benefit of the said flights and pretending that they had no idea what was being done to provide the information.

      Forgive your enemies - it messes with their heads

      My blog | My articles | MoXAML PowerToys | Mole 2010 - debugging made easier - my favourite utility

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      • P Pete OHanlon

        Majerus wrote:

        The UK has state run torture chambers?

        No. There's been a scandal over here with the former government turning a blind eye to what's called rendition flights, but getting the benefit of the said flights and pretending that they had no idea what was being done to provide the information.

        Forgive your enemies - it messes with their heads

        My blog | My articles | MoXAML PowerToys | Mole 2010 - debugging made easier - my favourite utility

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        Majerus
        wrote on last edited by
        #5

        Is this the scandal that revolves around Diego Garcia?

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        • M Majerus

          Is this the scandal that revolves around Diego Garcia?

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          Pete OHanlon
          wrote on last edited by
          #6

          That was the start of it.

          Forgive your enemies - it messes with their heads

          My blog | My articles | MoXAML PowerToys | Mole 2010 - debugging made easier - my favourite utility

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          • P Pete OHanlon

            That was the start of it.

            Forgive your enemies - it messes with their heads

            My blog | My articles | MoXAML PowerToys | Mole 2010 - debugging made easier - my favourite utility

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            Majerus
            wrote on last edited by
            #7

            However imperfectly, at least Britain has aknowledged their complitcity in the US torture regime and has compensated some of it's victims. The US, in contrast, has completely blocked any attempt by it's victims to seek redress through the courts.

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            • M Majerus

              I was unaware of that. The UK has state run torture chambers? As far a turning a blind eye is concerned, we have plenty of that in the US. You may have heard our current president talking about "looking forward, not backward."? None of those CIA torturers have been brought to justice, nor have any of those in the Bush administration who ordered it or wrote the "legal" justification for it.

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              Keith Barrow
              wrote on last edited by
              #8

              I think the UK is the only country that has a stated non-torture policy. * It isn't as noble as it first appears, the reason is torture doesn't work according to our experts, and better results can be achieved by mentally wearing people down. That said, as Pete states, we do look away when other countries want to send people to be tortured via outsourcing. * This was certainly the case a few years ago.

              Sort of a cross between Lawrence of Arabia and Dilbert.[^]
              -Or-
              A Dead ringer for Kate Winslett[^]

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              • K Keith Barrow

                I think the UK is the only country that has a stated non-torture policy. * It isn't as noble as it first appears, the reason is torture doesn't work according to our experts, and better results can be achieved by mentally wearing people down. That said, as Pete states, we do look away when other countries want to send people to be tortured via outsourcing. * This was certainly the case a few years ago.

                Sort of a cross between Lawrence of Arabia and Dilbert.[^]
                -Or-
                A Dead ringer for Kate Winslett[^]

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                Majerus
                wrote on last edited by
                #9

                The US also has a stated non-torture policy. Our constitution, our treaty obligations and US law all forbid it. Unfortunately, the previous adminstration chose to create a world-wide torture program and the current administration has chosen not to investigate or prosecute those crimes.

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                • K Keith Barrow

                  I think the UK is the only country that has a stated non-torture policy. * It isn't as noble as it first appears, the reason is torture doesn't work according to our experts, and better results can be achieved by mentally wearing people down. That said, as Pete states, we do look away when other countries want to send people to be tortured via outsourcing. * This was certainly the case a few years ago.

                  Sort of a cross between Lawrence of Arabia and Dilbert.[^]
                  -Or-
                  A Dead ringer for Kate Winslett[^]

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                  wizardzz
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #10

                  Keith Barrow wrote:

                  we do look away when other countries want to send people to be tortured via outsourcing.

                  Jesus Christ, another industry's jobs lost to outsourcing...

                  Craigslist Troll: litaly@comcast.net "I have a theory that the truth is never told during the nine-to-five hours. " — Hunter S. Thompson

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                  • M Majerus

                    The US also has a stated non-torture policy. Our constitution, our treaty obligations and US law all forbid it. Unfortunately, the previous adminstration chose to create a world-wide torture program and the current administration has chosen not to investigate or prosecute those crimes.

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                    wizardzz
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #11

                    Pelosi was there, so the current administration might be trying to protect party members. Hell maybe Obama has no problem with it, if he did, he might try to do something about it.

                    Craigslist Troll: litaly@comcast.net "I have a theory that the truth is never told during the nine-to-five hours. " — Hunter S. Thompson

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                    • W wizardzz

                      Pelosi was there, so the current administration might be trying to protect party members. Hell maybe Obama has no problem with it, if he did, he might try to do something about it.

                      Craigslist Troll: litaly@comcast.net "I have a theory that the truth is never told during the nine-to-five hours. " — Hunter S. Thompson

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                      Majerus
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #12

                      wizardzz wrote:

                      Pelosi was there

                      As well as all 434 other members of the house of representatives. What's your point?

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                      • M Majerus

                        wizardzz wrote:

                        Pelosi was there

                        As well as all 434 other members of the house of representatives. What's your point?

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                        wizardzz
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #13

                        You obviously have no idea what I'm talking about, she was literally there, hearing about it from the CIA. She is a Dem, and did nothing about it when Bushy was in office. http://blogs.abcnews.com/thenote/2009/05/intelligence-re.html[^] http://articles.latimes.com/2009/may/08/nation/na-interrogate8[^]

                        Craigslist Troll: litaly@comcast.net "I have a theory that the truth is never told during the nine-to-five hours. " — Hunter S. Thompson

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                        • W wizardzz

                          You obviously have no idea what I'm talking about, she was literally there, hearing about it from the CIA. She is a Dem, and did nothing about it when Bushy was in office. http://blogs.abcnews.com/thenote/2009/05/intelligence-re.html[^] http://articles.latimes.com/2009/may/08/nation/na-interrogate8[^]

                          Craigslist Troll: litaly@comcast.net "I have a theory that the truth is never told during the nine-to-five hours. " — Hunter S. Thompson

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                          Majerus
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #14

                          Oh, I suspected that this is what you were alluding to, but since you didn't actually say what you meant, I was not going to put words in your mouth. Pelosi may or may not have know that one individual had been waterboarded. If she knew and did nothing about it, that's terrible I guess it might even be a crime. But, of course, in 2002 the Republicans were the majority in the house and Porter Goss was the Republican chairman of the House intelligence committee at the time. But this is irrelevant to what I said. It was Bush and HIS executive branch the created the world-wide torture regime. Not Nancy Pelosi, not even Porter Goss. Whatever blamed can be laid on Pelosi individually or the Republican controlled congress collectively - Bush, Cheney, Rice, Ashcroft, Gonzalez, Addington, Yoo and others were the ones who created it and sustained it.

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                          • M Majerus

                            Oh, I suspected that this is what you were alluding to, but since you didn't actually say what you meant, I was not going to put words in your mouth. Pelosi may or may not have know that one individual had been waterboarded. If she knew and did nothing about it, that's terrible I guess it might even be a crime. But, of course, in 2002 the Republicans were the majority in the house and Porter Goss was the Republican chairman of the House intelligence committee at the time. But this is irrelevant to what I said. It was Bush and HIS executive branch the created the world-wide torture regime. Not Nancy Pelosi, not even Porter Goss. Whatever blamed can be laid on Pelosi individually or the Republican controlled congress collectively - Bush, Cheney, Rice, Ashcroft, Gonzalez, Addington, Yoo and others were the ones who created it and sustained it.

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                            wizardzz
                            wrote on last edited by
                            #15

                            Ok, so now you are putting words in my mouth. I was explaining why the current administration might not be doing anything about it. If you look at my original reply, that is exactly what I was saying. Obama's admin might not want to throw Pelosi in with the Bush admin people that would be investigated. Pelosi was there, so the current administration might be trying to protect party members. Hell maybe Obama has no problem with it, if he did, he might try to do something about it.

                            Craigslist Troll: litaly@comcast.net "I have a theory that the truth is never told during the nine-to-five hours. " — Hunter S. Thompson

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                            • W wizardzz

                              Ok, so now you are putting words in my mouth. I was explaining why the current administration might not be doing anything about it. If you look at my original reply, that is exactly what I was saying. Obama's admin might not want to throw Pelosi in with the Bush admin people that would be investigated. Pelosi was there, so the current administration might be trying to protect party members. Hell maybe Obama has no problem with it, if he did, he might try to do something about it.

                              Craigslist Troll: litaly@comcast.net "I have a theory that the truth is never told during the nine-to-five hours. " — Hunter S. Thompson

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                              Majerus
                              wrote on last edited by
                              #16

                              Well I think that as far as political calculations are concerned protecting Nancy Pelosi's ass is way down on the list. More likely the bat-shit crazy freakout of the pro torture Republican party that would have occurred had the previous administration been investigated for war crimes was something Obama would not have wanted to deal with. Either way - I don't care. Bush and his minions committed war crimes and Obama broke the law by not investigating them.

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                              • M Majerus

                                The Ontario Court of Appeal has upheld a decision to halt extradition proceedings for an alleged Al-Qaeda arms supplier, citing the extent of US human rights abuses tied to his capture in Pakistan.[^] I will never understand why one of the two major parties in this country have embraced this immoral, illegal and useless practice.

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                                Stan Shannon
                                wrote on last edited by
                                #17

                                Would it be ok with you if we just sent some SEALs up there to shoot him in the head? That appears to be a perfectly moral, legal and very useful practice. Now personally, I don't understand the logic with that, but the left seems to be understand it just fine. I mean, I haven't heard any of the Bush haters call Obama a war criminal.

                                Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.

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                                • S Stan Shannon

                                  Would it be ok with you if we just sent some SEALs up there to shoot him in the head? That appears to be a perfectly moral, legal and very useful practice. Now personally, I don't understand the logic with that, but the left seems to be understand it just fine. I mean, I haven't heard any of the Bush haters call Obama a war criminal.

                                  Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.

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                                  Majerus
                                  wrote on last edited by
                                  #18

                                  Stan Shannon wrote:

                                  Would it be ok with you if we just sent some SEALs up there to shoot him in the head?

                                  No. I dont see it as moral, legal or useful. If you think that this guy is somehow comparable to bin Laden, I disagree.

                                  Stan Shannon wrote:

                                  Now personally, I don't understand the logic with that, but the left seems to be understand it just fine.

                                  Don't know what you mean.

                                  Stan Shannon wrote:

                                  I haven't heard any of the Bush haters call Obama a war criminal.

                                  Then you haven't been listening.

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                                  • M Majerus

                                    Well I think that as far as political calculations are concerned protecting Nancy Pelosi's ass is way down on the list. More likely the bat-shit crazy freakout of the pro torture Republican party that would have occurred had the previous administration been investigated for war crimes was something Obama would not have wanted to deal with. Either way - I don't care. Bush and his minions committed war crimes and Obama broke the law by not investigating them.

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                                    wizardzz
                                    wrote on last edited by
                                    #19

                                    You're also leaving out: If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Obama may just be keeping the status quo, or benefiting from the use of aggressive interrogation, after all, Gitmo is still open 3 years after his election.

                                    Craigslist Troll: litaly@comcast.net "I have a theory that the truth is never told during the nine-to-five hours. " — Hunter S. Thompson

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                                    • W wizardzz

                                      You're also leaving out: If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Obama may just be keeping the status quo, or benefiting from the use of aggressive interrogation, after all, Gitmo is still open 3 years after his election.

                                      Craigslist Troll: litaly@comcast.net "I have a theory that the truth is never told during the nine-to-five hours. " — Hunter S. Thompson

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                                      Majerus
                                      wrote on last edited by
                                      #20

                                      I guess it's possible that Obama actually believes that torture is useful, but it seems unlikely. Because it isn't. Again, why Obama chooses to break the law by his failure to investigate the war crimes of the previous administration is something I really don't care about.

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                                      • M Majerus

                                        Stan Shannon wrote:

                                        Would it be ok with you if we just sent some SEALs up there to shoot him in the head?

                                        No. I dont see it as moral, legal or useful. If you think that this guy is somehow comparable to bin Laden, I disagree.

                                        Stan Shannon wrote:

                                        Now personally, I don't understand the logic with that, but the left seems to be understand it just fine.

                                        Don't know what you mean.

                                        Stan Shannon wrote:

                                        I haven't heard any of the Bush haters call Obama a war criminal.

                                        Then you haven't been listening.

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                                        Stan Shannon
                                        wrote on last edited by
                                        #21

                                        I'm listening to you. You're calling Obama a war criminal? Should he be impeached?

                                        Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.

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                                        • M Majerus

                                          I guess it's possible that Obama actually believes that torture is useful, but it seems unlikely. Because it isn't. Again, why Obama chooses to break the law by his failure to investigate the war crimes of the previous administration is something I really don't care about.

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                                          wizardzz
                                          wrote on last edited by
                                          #22

                                          Majerus wrote:

                                          I guess it's possible that Obama actually believes that torture is useful, but it seems unlikely. Because it isn't.

                                          Haha, well maybe that's what they get when it's outsourced. Need codez! (waterboarding) urgntzzzz!

                                          Craigslist Troll: litaly@comcast.net "I have a theory that the truth is never told during the nine-to-five hours. " — Hunter S. Thompson

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