The legacy of torture

[Stan Shannon]

But then, I never made a moral argument. I don't believe that there is any moral way to defend a society from those who wish to destroy it. When have we ever fought a 'moral' war? I expect those we elect to be our leaders to exclude morality from what ever means they deem necessary to defend the nation. Bush or Obama could have nuked every major city from Morocco to Pakistan and I would have been perfectly content. (Although, I will confess that I am not altogether comfortable with a traditonal branch of our conventional military being used as assassination teams. If we need assassination teams, they should be called assassination teams and probably controlled directly by the CIA. Missions like this I think tend to mar the tradition of honor the US Navy has always possessed)

Majerus wrote:

Obama is a right of center political. The Democratic party as a group might be a little left of center.

Now THAT is funny. Sure, you're not a leftist.... :laugh: The only reason we are not already a full blown communist state is because of the impediments the founding father's put in the democrat party's way. You're zeal to throw opposition leaders into prison on whatever trumped up charges you can find is, once more, all the proof anyone needs.

Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.

[Majerus]

Stan Shannon wrote:

I never made a moral argument.

I never said you did. And looking at your current comments I amemd my response to: Coming from someone who describes himself as a souless monster, that is a real laugh.

Stan Shannon wrote:

I expect those we elect to be our leaders to exclude morality from what ever means they deem necessary to defend the nation.

You also want them to ignore all those pesky laws as well. You fear that health care reform will destroy American democracy, and yet you believe democracy can survive vesting the federal government and the president with absolute power to kill whomever it chooses by simply declaring them to be the enemy.

Stan Shannon wrote:

Sure, you're not a leftist

Especially not by your crazy wingnut definition of the word.

Stan Shannon wrote:

You're zeal to throw opposition leaders into prison
on whatever trumped up charges

Trumped up? Hardly. Both Cheney and Bush have publically declared that they ordered waterboarding. Waterboarding is torture and torture is a war crime. They have confessed to committing war crimes. Your defense of war crimes proves, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that you hate democracy.

Stan Shannon wrote:

democrat party's

Since you know that there is no democrat party in the US - at least not with with a national presence - this is clearly meant as a perjorative. So right back at you - you batshit crazy, teabagging wingnut.

[Stan Shannon]

Sorry, but we have already established that you are void of moral courage. For example,

Majerus wrote:

Both Cheney and Bush have publically declared that they ordered waterboarding. Waterboarding is torture and torture is a war crime. They have confessed to committing war crimes.
 
Your defense of war crimes proves, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that you hate democracy.

...You also want them to ignore all those pesky laws as well.

Anyone who condemns a law that makes it illegal to pour water on someone's face, but has no comment to make if that same person is shot dead standing unarmed in their home, just so long as the guy ordering the shooting is own your side politically, is a hyprocrite. If you would bother to check most of the actual sources of moral codes around the world, I'm actually quite certain you will find that they all consider shooting someone in the head to be worse than getting them a little wet. Except, evidently, the moral code of the left, which appears to be infinitely modifiable to fit the occassion. Face it, the obvious truth is that you would use any possible excuse to imprison the political opposition. That is all this is about. There is absolutely nothing more morally compelling about it than that. If there were, there would be even more public outrage from the elft at Obama's actions as at Bush's, because what Obama did, the precident he has set, is far, far worse. And any normal person would easily percieve that.

Majerus wrote:

You fear that health care reform will destroy American democracy

I do indeed. Although, just a little faster than all the other sociaslist policies that are already well established. So, its kind of a moot point. I'm more than happy to set back and watch as people like you learn you lessons the hard way.

Majerus wrote:

Since you know that there is no democrat party in the US

Than what party do democrats belong to?

Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.

[Majerus]

Stan Shannon wrote:

Sorry, but we have already established that you are void of moral courage.

Sorry, but someone who proudly claims to have a complete lack of a moral center is simply incapable of making that sort of judgement. Even though I know it is possible that those soldiers were given shoot to kill orders, there is no evidence for it. Really? Is that the best you can do? You - a man with no moral compass - tries to claim that bin Laden's death was immoral and democrats are hypocrits for not condemning it? There are so many easy targets for exposing hypocrisy of the democrats and that's the best you can come up with? I have claimed that Bush should be tried for breaking the law - not that he acted immorally. You claim that Obama made an immoral judgement to kill osama(not that there is any evidence to support that), But you haven't argued that it was illegal.

Stan Shannon wrote:

Face it, the obvious truth is that you would use any possible excuse to imprison the political opposition.

Nope. He confessed to war crimes.

Stan Shannon wrote:

There is absolutely nothing more morally compelling about it than that.

I haven't made a moral argument for trying Bush for war crimes. It is you, the one you claims to be amoral, who is trying to make a moral argument here.

Stan Shannon wrote:

Than what party do democrats belong to?

You really don't know? :wtf:

Stan Shannon wrote:

what Obama did, the precident he has set, is far, far worse.

He has set a precedent far worse than anything Bush has done, but it wasn't in hunting down Bin Laden. But blinded by your amoral bloodlust, I wouldn't be suprised that you don't see it. Bonus points if you can name a famous torture victim of the current administration.

[Distind]

Stan Shannon wrote:

All we heard from them for years was how water-boarding was swelling the ranks of al queda with outraged
(but otherwise moderate) muslims. But gunning down their top guy won't have the same affect? Give me a break.

Let me correct something here:

Stan Shannon wrote:

All we heard from them for years was how water-boarding brown people at random without evidence was swelling the ranks of al queda with outraged
(but otherwise moderate) muslims.

Shoot the leader and it shows he's hardly invincible, torture the guy down the street for no apparent reason, refuse to give a reason, and toss them into a jail which violates your own laws, but it's ok because we put it somewhere else, AND then you give people plenty of reason to be pissed with you. Oh, and invade two countries on what are now apparently laughable pretenses, have (some)soldiers who believe it's their holy duty to piss off(Or better, shoot at) the locals as much as possible, and have a military structure which quietly supports it. Bin Laden has been quite open about having been behind a number of attacks against the US and pretty much anyone who doesn't exactly agree with him. Yeah, I totally see the balance here, the liberals are completely wrong about leveling one compound and actually managing to achieve the stated goal, it's completely apart from how much we totally loved Bin Laden before. How dare we.

[jschell]

Majerus wrote:

I want Bush and Cheney brought up on charges of war crimes because they are self-confessed war criminals.

Sounds like a goal. What public office have you run for? What political campaigns have you been part of? How significant was your role? How do you intend to increase your role in the future? How many hours a week do you put towards your political efforts? What percentage of your income do you spend on achieving your political goals? How many times a week do you interact with your elected officials to both let them know about your goals and to ask what they are doing about it? How many protests and other events do you intend to participate in this year which will further that goal? And I am curious - under exactly which legal jurisdiction do you want them prosecuted?

[Majerus]

And why do you think any of that is relevant?

jschell wrote:

under exactly which legal jurisdiction do you want them prosecuted?

Any federal court would do.

[Stan Shannon]

Sorry, but if what Bush did was illegal than so is what Obama did. And if morality or legality is a factor in your argument you must now include Obama into whatever you wish done to Bush. Otherwise, you are simply a hypocrite turning a blind eye to the evil of your own side. For my part, I heartily approve of what Obama did just as I did Bush. I really don't care if mistakes are made, just so long as there is an aggressvie effort made to defend the country. Torturing someone when you should not have is a far more forgivable mistake to make than not torturing them when you should have. There is no such thing as a moral war. The entire concept is inherently immoral. But, then, so is surrendering to evil, so what ya gonna do? Still, I tend to support Obama on a lot of his foreign policy (I also tend to like his policies in regard to NASA). I mean, sure, he is going to wreck the country economically, but what the hell, thats a fore gone conclusion at this late date anyway - no one can stop that train wreck, so we might as well let the people who started it all so long ago apply the coup de grace. But the simple fact is that he has proven beyond doubt that Bush was also largely right in his foreign policy. There will be no big changes in that regard, and the 'throw Bush in prison' lunacy is clearly nothing more than hypocritical blather from the extreme left for all the world to see and be amazed by.

Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.

[jschell]

Majerus wrote:

And why do you think any of that is relevant?

Some people have goals and do something about them.

[led mike]

Stan Shannon wrote:

but the left seems to be understand it just fine

Seriously, you are still a Republican asshole after all the republican garbage that has happened since I left this site? Wow you are one seriously fucked up asswipe like all the other republicans in america. Lying hypocritical sacks of shit all of you. For the definition of rebulican asshole hypocrites see this link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David\_Vitter Vitter votes to impeach Clinton for sex while he is using prostitutes himself. He votes for a family values bill to keep homosexuals from marrying because marriages like his need protecting. Then after all his whoring is exposed he does not resign and you fucking hypocritical asshole republican voters keep voting him into office. Fuck all you all worthless motherfucking morons and your family values bullshit. The only value you all share perfectly is you only give a shit about yourselves, period, end of story. No need to reply cause all you will get from me is a big FUCK OFF. So here's one for free just in case you've been missing me. FUCK OFF and shove Sarah Palin up your ass sideways, you might find she actually knows something about your asshole, but it's doubtful.

"Alot of the people on this forum are incredibly stupid, thinking that the internet is real"
Score: 1.0 in the Soap Box

led mike

[Stan Shannon]

Hi, Mike. I see you're off your meds again. Of course I'm still a republican. Because of morons like you, they are the only option non-communists have. Get the radical leftist out of the democrat party, and we might be able to have a civil converstation.

Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.

[led mike]

Stan Shannon wrote:

and we might be able to have a civil converstation.

What's the point? You had plenty of chances for civil conversations and you responded by turning the word liberal into a pejorative. All the while none of you is man enough to admit you are wrong. Wrong about deregulation ( republicans testified to congress that they should have regulated wallstreet more than they did and it at least partly caused the crisis ). Wrong about the auto industry bailout being bad. The loans are paid back and the industry is rebounding and providing jobs, one of the few places that is happening at a time it is sorely needed. Wrong about health care, one of your own republicans designed the plan that is working perfectly in his state (Mitt Romney) You personally touted republican morality and how they always resigned after they were caught. David Vitter did NOT RESIGN and republican hypocrites re-elected him. Your family values platform is garbage based on facts in history and not opinion and yet you are all still claiming morality is on your side with gay marriage and abortion. Your financial theory is garbage based on facts in history and not opinion and yet you are all still clamoring about smaller govt. and deregulation. You all believe you are correct because you believe yourselves to be superior people, made superior by god because you are his chosen favorites, white christian bigots. You constantly ignore the facts at best and out and out lie at worst. Some idiot fox journalist was questioning a democrat guest about another democrat that compared someone to Nazis when the guest replied that it happens all the time on Fox News. The fox journalist denied it emphatically. So of course the next day people were playing the video clips of all the fox journalists comparing people to Nazis and Hitler including Bill Oreilly. Bill Oreilly said he was taken out of context because he was right and the liberal is comparable to Nazis. So not only does he lie but he is also a giant moron that doesn't know what taken out of context means, and so is anyone who watches that garbage on Fox News. Some of those fox people are dumber than Bill Oreilly. Sarah Palin doesn't know anything about anything and yet just about every republican voted to make her the Vice President. You people are not worth having a conversation with, the facts have proven that beyond a shadow of a doubt. Fox news and Rush Limbaugh prove it every day with every lie they tell

[Stan Shannon]

All of which merely adds up to the fact that we need better conservatives. But, not to worry Mike, I probably won't even vote in the next election. I'm one conservative who firmly believes that the left should be allowed to finish what it started without opposition. Liberalism is a pejorative - it simply does not work and cannot be made to work. But, hey, I'm happy that you believe it does. You just keep pushing that crap and see what you get. I'm more than happy to let you learn your lessons the hard way. History proves that when we have conservative congresses (the only branch of government with any actual constitutional authority to affect the economy) we have prosperity, and when we have liberal congresses we have economic carnage. And, no, lack of regulation is not the problem - all we need is a single standard of common law that everyone, rich and poor alike, can be held accountable to by a government that is just big enough to do so - but no bigger. Our current fiscal problems were created by too much government involvment and not too little.

Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.

[led mike]

Stan Shannon wrote:

And, no, lack of regulation is not the problem - all we need is a single standard of common law that everyone, rich and poor alike, can be held accountable to by a government that is just big enough to do so - but no bigger. Our current fiscal problems were created by too much government involvment and not too little.

Really. So the republican guys who's job it was to do that were wrong when the testified to congress after all the banks collapsed? You are so full of shit it's amazing. Fact's dude, facts. You have none on your side any longer so you resort to the old sky is falling hysterics coupled with misinformation or lets just call it what it is, lying. Liberalism does and has worked in many places in the world which of course you are completely aware of so this is just more of your garbage and evidence of how you are incapable of civil conversation. Because lying just doesn't make it civil dude, period. To you it's a pejorative because of all the reasons I already posted. You believe yourself a superior race chosen by god for exclusive elitism. Pretty much the exact opposite of the teachings of Jesus, but he will sort you out himself in the end yes? The economy folded because the bush administration let the white superior rich people kill it with their greed. The recovery is non existent because the budget is totally out of line due to the massive spending in two wars we never should have been in. George Bush, worst president ever. he came into office with a sweet set up of policies that built the massive surplus he inherited as president. First thing he did was eliminate all those policies and start paying billions of dollars for two wars we had no business in. several years later the economy collapsed under the weight of a failed REPUBLICAN ADMINISTRATION. You want to talk history, there it is, plain and simple and on the books. It's real, not imagined. Facts dude, facts. And by the way, the muslim world is the most socially conservative and has been for like ever. All of them have to migrate to liberal parts of the world to improve their lives. All of these things you know, but chose to ignore or lye about them because they contradict your preconceived view where white christians are the dominant superior race/religion. Just so you know, I am a white christian but don't believe myself superior to non white / non christians. I do however feel superior to hysterical dogmatic intolerant people such as yours