To ribbon or not to ribbon? [modified]
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Interesting. Do you feel that it takes up too much screen space?
There is no failure only feedback
On my notebook, sometimes it does (widescreen notebook @ 15.6"), but in those cases I minimize the ribbon. Most of the time the real estate it takes doesn't bother me.
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Would that make it a farticle?
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I'm working on the same dillema too. I'm looking at an approach that would allow it to auto-hide and pull down when needed. That would alleviate the screen space issue. Unfortunately I also need it to be cross-platform, so I'll have to delve into the details of how wxWidgets handles their ribbon to see if auto-hide is a possibility. Cheers, Drew.
Is it just more experienced users that care about screen space? I watch newbies use a computer and they never maximize windows, everything's floating around and there are hundreds of windows open at the same time. It drives me nuts, I want to reach over their shoulder and close everything and maximize the window they are working in. I'm want new users of our software to think simplicity and ease of use when they first set eyes on it. To me the ribbon eating up all that space and with all it's options right in your face makes the app look crowded and confusing and hard to use right off the bat but maybe a newer user would not think that?
There is no failure only feedback
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Oh I definitely *could* do it, it goes against the spirit of it though since it's supposed to be one click to do common tasks. I'd hide it like Firefox does their menu in the latest browser, it's only a button in the corner taking up almost no space.
There is no failure only feedback
Fair enough. I'd prefer to have it reveal when you hover over a tab, when you've got it minimized which would get it back to the one-click stage.
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On my notebook, sometimes it does (widescreen notebook @ 15.6"), but in those cases I minimize the ribbon. Most of the time the real estate it takes doesn't bother me.
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Marc A. Brown wrote:
Would that make it a farticle?
Wipe my erse and call it a shiticle! :laugh:
The environment that nurtures creative programmers kills management and marketing types - and vice versa. - Orson Scott Card
You'll get a lot of 1-votes writing crap like that. :laugh:
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It just always feels like it's in my face when I just want to focus on work but I guess after you've used it for a while you don't even notice it any more?
There is no failure only feedback
John C wrote:
after you've used it for a while you don't even notice it any more
Exactly. I really disliked it at first because it was sooo "in my face", but once I got used to it (the shiny wore off), it's only "there" when I need it.
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I'm looking at designing the shell for a new application and the menu system is the topic of the day. I had looked at the ribbon UI years ago when it was new and my initial impression was that it was ugly, took up too much screen space and appeared to be more complicated to use and un-intuitive. I just looked at it again and I still feel the same way 4 years later. Yet it *is* being adopted and used quite widely in MS stuff and supposedly Open Office is looking at something similar as well. While it's goals are worthy it just still seems wrong to me. I can see where it avoids clicks and improves feature discovery but was that really ever a problem worth trading off for such an ugly space eating UI? On the other hand traditional menus and toolbars seem increasingly stale and outdated as well. I'm thinking of looking more towards smart phone navigation / menu systems for inspiration as people are increasingly more familiar with them and one thing they excel at is limiting screen real estate. Also finding every possible way to eliminate menu items where possible might be a good idea as well if I can find a way to do it. I notice Microsoft Dynamics uses an outlook style for all navigation and nothing navigation related on the ribbon bar, something to consider splitting navigation away from commands perhaps. Thoughts on the ribbon or anything else menu nav related and interesting that you might have seen lately? UPDATE Here's some info on the ribbon worth reading that I found after I made this post: A good critical post on the ribbon: http://interactiveasp.net/blogs/spgilmore/archive/2010/03/25/to-ribbon-or-not-to-ribbon-considering-the-microsoft-fluent-interface.aspx[^] A study of the user acceptance of the ribbon: http://www.wseas.us/e-library/conferences/2010/Faro/DNCOCO/DNCOCO-25.pdf[^]
There is no failure only feedback
modified on Wednesday, May 11, 2011 2:40 PM
Ask your users. I bet most of them have tried Office 2007 or 2010 or Win7 and by now have their opinion about the ribbon. Personaly, I like it. Reduces number of mouse clicks and discovers functionality I did not even know existed.
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Is it just more experienced users that care about screen space? I watch newbies use a computer and they never maximize windows, everything's floating around and there are hundreds of windows open at the same time. It drives me nuts, I want to reach over their shoulder and close everything and maximize the window they are working in. I'm want new users of our software to think simplicity and ease of use when they first set eyes on it. To me the ribbon eating up all that space and with all it's options right in your face makes the app look crowded and confusing and hard to use right off the bat but maybe a newer user would not think that?
There is no failure only feedback
I agree that the ribbon can make things look complicated. I think it's more of an issue with the concept of hiding complexity though. I use Mindjet MindManager, for instance, which uses a ribbon that does not look complex at all. It just has basic functionality visible, sort of like an old toolbar where each button can be pulled down to reveal more options. It really makes it look good, and simple. That's the kind of look I'm going for. I agree that more experienced users tend to make better use of screen space. Every window I open tends to take up about as much space as a piece of letter-sized paper. That works for me, so I tend to resize things like that. Perhaps the younger crowd is used to small devices and feels comfortable with smaller windows because of it. Who knows. Cheers, Drew.
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Dan Neely wrote:
If you want to get ahead of the UI curve now'd be the time to ribbonize your software.
X| Maybe if I could hide the whole damn thing and people would have to click once to reveal it. :)
Dan Neely wrote:
Love or hate the ribbon this does make more sense then their strained explanations in Weven that only certain types of apps (IIRC content edit/creation) should have ribbons while the rest should stay menu/toolbar.
I saw that for Vista, I didn't realize they had stuck to that for windows 7. Apple has shown us that people care a lot more about aesthetics than perhaps was realized before. The ribbon is just plain ugly and makes any app that uses it look instantly complicated and hard to use in my opinion. I'm going to try to transcend the ribbon if I can.
There is no failure only feedback
John C wrote:
I saw that for Vista, I didn't realize they had stuck to that for windows 7.
Your timeline is a bit off. The ribbon launched with Office07 well after the vista launch, and while the win32 ribbon control provided in win7 was backported to Vista, no vista OS components use it.
3x12=36 2x12=24 1x12=12 0x12=18
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Don't forget to think about the input mechanism. Smart Phone interaction and UI work well with touch sensitive input device, but might be hell on earth with a mouse or a trackpad (but that is changing with multi-touch trackpad).
Watched code never compiles.
Maximilien wrote:
Smart Phone interaction and UI work well with touch sensitive input device, but might be hell on earth with a mouse or a trackpad (but that is changing with multi-touch trackpad).
They still fall flat on their face for mouse users.
3x12=36 2x12=24 1x12=12 0x12=18
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I'm looking at designing the shell for a new application and the menu system is the topic of the day. I had looked at the ribbon UI years ago when it was new and my initial impression was that it was ugly, took up too much screen space and appeared to be more complicated to use and un-intuitive. I just looked at it again and I still feel the same way 4 years later. Yet it *is* being adopted and used quite widely in MS stuff and supposedly Open Office is looking at something similar as well. While it's goals are worthy it just still seems wrong to me. I can see where it avoids clicks and improves feature discovery but was that really ever a problem worth trading off for such an ugly space eating UI? On the other hand traditional menus and toolbars seem increasingly stale and outdated as well. I'm thinking of looking more towards smart phone navigation / menu systems for inspiration as people are increasingly more familiar with them and one thing they excel at is limiting screen real estate. Also finding every possible way to eliminate menu items where possible might be a good idea as well if I can find a way to do it. I notice Microsoft Dynamics uses an outlook style for all navigation and nothing navigation related on the ribbon bar, something to consider splitting navigation away from commands perhaps. Thoughts on the ribbon or anything else menu nav related and interesting that you might have seen lately? UPDATE Here's some info on the ribbon worth reading that I found after I made this post: A good critical post on the ribbon: http://interactiveasp.net/blogs/spgilmore/archive/2010/03/25/to-ribbon-or-not-to-ribbon-considering-the-microsoft-fluent-interface.aspx[^] A study of the user acceptance of the ribbon: http://www.wseas.us/e-library/conferences/2010/Faro/DNCOCO/DNCOCO-25.pdf[^]
There is no failure only feedback
modified on Wednesday, May 11, 2011 2:40 PM
Can't stand the things. Every new UI invention that is supposed to make my life better simply reminds me that I yet again should consider getting out of this f***ed up industry and try and make a living instead teaching non-violent communication to poker players. ;) Marc
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I'm looking at designing the shell for a new application and the menu system is the topic of the day. I had looked at the ribbon UI years ago when it was new and my initial impression was that it was ugly, took up too much screen space and appeared to be more complicated to use and un-intuitive. I just looked at it again and I still feel the same way 4 years later. Yet it *is* being adopted and used quite widely in MS stuff and supposedly Open Office is looking at something similar as well. While it's goals are worthy it just still seems wrong to me. I can see where it avoids clicks and improves feature discovery but was that really ever a problem worth trading off for such an ugly space eating UI? On the other hand traditional menus and toolbars seem increasingly stale and outdated as well. I'm thinking of looking more towards smart phone navigation / menu systems for inspiration as people are increasingly more familiar with them and one thing they excel at is limiting screen real estate. Also finding every possible way to eliminate menu items where possible might be a good idea as well if I can find a way to do it. I notice Microsoft Dynamics uses an outlook style for all navigation and nothing navigation related on the ribbon bar, something to consider splitting navigation away from commands perhaps. Thoughts on the ribbon or anything else menu nav related and interesting that you might have seen lately? UPDATE Here's some info on the ribbon worth reading that I found after I made this post: A good critical post on the ribbon: http://interactiveasp.net/blogs/spgilmore/archive/2010/03/25/to-ribbon-or-not-to-ribbon-considering-the-microsoft-fluent-interface.aspx[^] A study of the user acceptance of the ribbon: http://www.wseas.us/e-library/conferences/2010/Faro/DNCOCO/DNCOCO-25.pdf[^]
There is no failure only feedback
modified on Wednesday, May 11, 2011 2:40 PM
John C wrote:
I had looked at the ribbon UI years ago when it was new and my initial impression was that it was ugly, took up too much screen space and appeared to be more complicated to use and un-intuitive. I just looked at it again and I still feel the same way 4 years later. Yet it *is* being adopted and used quite widely in MS stuff and supposedly Open Office is looking at something similar as well.
While it's goals are worthy it just still seems wrong to me. I can see where it avoids clicks and improves feature discovery but was that really ever a problem worth trading off for such an ugly space eating UI?You should read some of the discussions going on in the C++ MVP area on this very subject. Of course we will get used to it given enough time, but changing something just for the sake of change is just not right. Microsoft claims to have conducted several usability studies and found that the ribbon proved more productive than not. I've been using Office 2007 for nearly a year now and I'm still trying to find stuff. Keyboard shortcuts that I used to do effortlessly now do all sorts of wonderful things! Oh well...
"One man's wage rise is another man's price increase." - Harold Wilson
"Fireproof doesn't mean the fire will never come. It means when the fire comes that you will be able to withstand it." - Michael Simmons
"Some people are making such thorough preparation for rainy days that they aren't enjoying today's sunshine." - William Feather
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Is it just more experienced users that care about screen space? I watch newbies use a computer and they never maximize windows, everything's floating around and there are hundreds of windows open at the same time. It drives me nuts, I want to reach over their shoulder and close everything and maximize the window they are working in. I'm want new users of our software to think simplicity and ease of use when they first set eyes on it. To me the ribbon eating up all that space and with all it's options right in your face makes the app look crowded and confusing and hard to use right off the bat but maybe a newer user would not think that?
There is no failure only feedback
John C wrote:
Is it just more experienced users that care about screen space? I watch newbies use a computer and they never maximize windows, everything's floating around and there are hundreds of windows open at the same time. It drives me nuts, I want to reach over their shoulder and close everything and maximize the window they are working in.
Same here. They'd rather mess around with trying to exact-place the horizontal/vertical scroll bars than to just maximize the window.
"One man's wage rise is another man's price increase." - Harold Wilson
"Fireproof doesn't mean the fire will never come. It means when the fire comes that you will be able to withstand it." - Michael Simmons
"Some people are making such thorough preparation for rainy days that they aren't enjoying today's sunshine." - William Feather
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Fair enough. I'd prefer to have it reveal when you hover over a tab, when you've got it minimized which would get it back to the one-click stage.
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Ask your users. I bet most of them have tried Office 2007 or 2010 or Win7 and by now have their opinion about the ribbon. Personaly, I like it. Reduces number of mouse clicks and discovers functionality I did not even know existed.
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I agree that the ribbon can make things look complicated. I think it's more of an issue with the concept of hiding complexity though. I use Mindjet MindManager, for instance, which uses a ribbon that does not look complex at all. It just has basic functionality visible, sort of like an old toolbar where each button can be pulled down to reveal more options. It really makes it look good, and simple. That's the kind of look I'm going for. I agree that more experienced users tend to make better use of screen space. Every window I open tends to take up about as much space as a piece of letter-sized paper. That works for me, so I tend to resize things like that. Perhaps the younger crowd is used to small devices and feels comfortable with smaller windows because of it. Who knows. Cheers, Drew.
Drew Stainton wrote:
sort of like an old toolbar where each button can be pulled down to reveal more options. It really makes it look good, and simple. That's the kind of look I'm going for.
But that's absolutely not a ribbon control then. One of the main points of the ribbon is that nothing is hidden (from what I understand).
Drew Stainton wrote:
Perhaps the younger crowd is used to small devices and feels comfortable with smaller windows because of it.
Maybe they just have better eyesight! :)
There is no failure only feedback
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Can't stand the things. Every new UI invention that is supposed to make my life better simply reminds me that I yet again should consider getting out of this f***ed up industry and try and make a living instead teaching non-violent communication to poker players. ;) Marc
Marc Clifton wrote:
reminds me that I yet again should consider getting out of this f***ed up industry
I totally know what you're saying. I've recently had to go through the typical thing we all go through if you're in this industry long enough: forget everything you know and start from scratch. Over the last three months I've had to learn xaml / wpf / silverlight / mvvm / Prism / MVC / a new business object framework / JQuery / etc etc etc and forget about windows forms (obsolete) and a slew of other stuff. I learned a lesson though, as you get older in this business you start to not take the time to keep up with stuff and then you pay the price all at once which is harder and harder to do as you get older. I thought I had the luxury of taking a few years off but no, that just doesn't work. Got to keep treading water or swim to shore, there's no floating around on your back in this business.
There is no failure only feedback
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Drew Stainton wrote:
sort of like an old toolbar where each button can be pulled down to reveal more options. It really makes it look good, and simple. That's the kind of look I'm going for.
But that's absolutely not a ribbon control then. One of the main points of the ribbon is that nothing is hidden (from what I understand).
Drew Stainton wrote:
Perhaps the younger crowd is used to small devices and feels comfortable with smaller windows because of it.
Maybe they just have better eyesight! :)
There is no failure only feedback
John C wrote:
But that's absolutely not a ribbon control then. One of the main points of the ribbon is that nothing is hidden (from what I understand).
Could be, but that's not exactly how I'd implement it. We'll see how it goes!
John C wrote:
Maybe they just have better eyesight!
Probably! Cheers, Drew.
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There is a study that has been done that basically shows that new computer users have no problem with it and find it better and experienced users more used to the old menu system hate it. I dislike it from an aesthetic point of view more than anything else: it's ugly and makes any app that uses it look instantly more complicated that it probably is.
There is no failure only feedback
John C wrote:
new computer users have no problem with it and find it better and experienced users more used to the old menu system hate it
...and of course you'd buy a car that new drivers liked, but experienced motorists hated.