Open plea for wpf / silverlight's future
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gavindon wrote:
just curious where that is.
It's more a state of mind than anything else initially. It's taking the frame of mind that we can not depend on Microsoft going forward and should look to ourselves. It's deciding that we need to have as little exposure as possible to 3rd party private software. I've already taken this position with 3rd party component libraries for the next major release of our software which we're making every effort possible to not use 3rd party component libraries. It's essentially taking back control in house as much as possible. That gives me certainty, knowing I'm in control of what's happening going forward.
There is no failure only feedback
I can pretty much agree with you there. I try to stay away from 3rd party addons as they have had a tendency to break and be just a flat PITA. I'd rather build everything I use(within reasonable limits of course) then I know what it does and how to fix it. Point in case, the current intranet app here where I work was designed by somebody else. He used some 3rd party libraries and functionality which have now decided to not work very well. I am fighting the wolves trying to figure out how to get my net working properly again.(to remove his crap will consist of a fairly heavy rework of the entire project, which is actually in the works for the near future but for now its march on.)
Programming is a race between programmers trying to build bigger and better idiot proof programs, and the universe trying to build bigger and better idiots, so far... the universe is winning. A graduation ceremony is an event where the commencement speaker tells thousands of students dressed in identical caps and gowns that 'individuality' is the key to success
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Ok, let's just take it as given I meant *properly* not half-assedly. :)
There is no failure only feedback
:-D
cheers, Chris Maunder The Code Project | Co-founder Microsoft C++ MVP
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Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
Frankly, the level of FUD that is being spread is just irresponsible
Exactly, when will Microsoft *stop* and just come out and say what their strategy is going forward? So far all they've given us is FUD and they are failing big time at what should be P.R. 101.
There is no failure only feedback
John C wrote:
failing big time at what should be P.R. 101.
maybe the problem is that MS has for too long watched Apple tell people what they will like and not like, its rubbing off on them. The idea of, this is what is, we know you will still use it so get bent if you don't like what we say.
Programming is a race between programmers trying to build bigger and better idiot proof programs, and the universe trying to build bigger and better idiots, so far... the universe is winning. A graduation ceremony is an event where the commencement speaker tells thousands of students dressed in identical caps and gowns that 'individuality' is the key to success
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Unfortunately I can't go into some of the details of discussions that I have had with actual MS staffers working on the SL/WPF teams, but it was this mass panic that led me to write this[^] post. The problem with the demonstration is simple; they were demoing new technology - from a marketing point of view, there's no excitement in saying "your old stuff will continue to run". In typical MS evangelism terms, this is a marketing SNAFU, it's not a developer FUBAR. Your .NET investment is safe, will continue to be safe for a very long time. As a dev, I'm excited about being able to write code that works on an ARM tablet, and that also runs on my desktop PC. The same people complaining about having to work with the Metro UI are now complaining about having to write JavaScript - if you don't want to, you don't have to; that is not going to change. There have been comments that WPF is no longer being actively developed, and I was worried about this for a while until someone I trust very much reassured me that the slower release cycle on WPF did not mean that it was no longer getting the love; it's a mature platform now, so exciting new features are fewer and further apart. Instead, smaller tweaks and enhancements are taking place on it, some of which are absolutely fantastic. I'm giving nothing away here when I tell you that there are going to be enhancements to the data binding engine, and that the airspace issue is being sorted out at long last.
Forgive your enemies - it messes with their heads
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For everyone out there that says that WPF is dead, I'd like them to qualify that: dead how? If Windows 8, and by extension, Windows 'Tablet' are supporting HTML5, then please show me the HTML5 for the Metro UI demos that have been shown on the web in the last couple of weeks. There has been so much baseless FUD on various sites for quite a long time now. Based on the public facts we know: windows phone 7 uses xaml and .net for UI layout and functionality, the animation effects are xaml based, windows 8/tablet has tiles, and the new xbox interface has tiles. Would you base your next billion-dollar OS on an incomplete standard, or on something you own, control, and is complete specified? I think it's fair to say that xaml and .net, and by extension, wpf and silverlight are far from 'dead'. By the same metric, MFC has been dead for 10 years. Precisely as Pete says above, WPF is a mature platform and on a slower release cycle, it's not dead, and certainly not an ex-parrot.
Regards, Barry
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John C wrote:
they clearly *are* deprecating silverlight and WPF in particular, they've announced it with the windows 8 stuff
Where did they announce that? Link?
http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/features/2011/jun11/06-01corporatenews.aspx[^] "Today, we also talked a bit about how developers will build apps for the new system. Windows 8 apps use the power of HTML5, tapping into the native capabilities of Windows using standard JavaScript and HTML to deliver new kinds of experiences. These new Windows 8 apps are full-screen and touch-optimized, and they easily integrate with the capabilities of the new Windows user interface." So, reading that and assuming the position of a software publisher in a highly competitive market, would you want to publish an "old" style app or a "new windows 8 app"?
There is no failure only feedback
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I can pretty much agree with you there. I try to stay away from 3rd party addons as they have had a tendency to break and be just a flat PITA. I'd rather build everything I use(within reasonable limits of course) then I know what it does and how to fix it. Point in case, the current intranet app here where I work was designed by somebody else. He used some 3rd party libraries and functionality which have now decided to not work very well. I am fighting the wolves trying to figure out how to get my net working properly again.(to remove his crap will consist of a fairly heavy rework of the entire project, which is actually in the works for the near future but for now its march on.)
Programming is a race between programmers trying to build bigger and better idiot proof programs, and the universe trying to build bigger and better idiots, so far... the universe is winning. A graduation ceremony is an event where the commencement speaker tells thousands of students dressed in identical caps and gowns that 'individuality' is the key to success
gavindon wrote:
I'd rather build everything I use(within reasonable limits of course)
I didn't used to feel that way but my definition of reasonable limits has been extended quite a bit after numerous times stuck with uncaring 3rd party tech support.
There is no failure only feedback
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John C wrote:
we can't write an app and run it everywhere
Yes we can. It's called HTML+CSS+JavaScript. We can do it now. We build two quite large web applications and we support something like 94% of the users, according to the latest browser market share stats. If only we could get rid of IE6 and we'd be at 100%. One codebase, unlimited platforms. Of course we don't target mobile devices (yet) but simply because, in our case, it doesn't make sense to use our applications on a tiny screen with a tiny keyboard. But, I guarantee that there is very little you can't do in HTML when talking about business and productivity applications for desktop and even pad users. Mobile phones are another story, but after all there's only so much you can do on a tiny screen - regardless of how the application is built. Even so, I find lots of good mobile web apps. Flickr, for example, is excellent.
If you truly believe you need to pick a mobile phone that "says something" about your personality, don't bother. You don't have a personality. A mental illness, maybe, but not a personality. [Charlie Brooker] ScrewTurn Wiki, Software Localization Tools & Services and My Blog
Dario Solera wrote:
Yes we can. It's called HTML+CSS+JavaScript. We can do it now.
I hope to find out soon once my wpf and silverlight interfaces are out of the way it's next on my list and I *do* need to support pads and cell phones so it should be interesting. I'm making every possible interface (as identically as possible) and letting the market decide going forward.
There is no failure only feedback
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http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/features/2011/jun11/06-01corporatenews.aspx[^] "Today, we also talked a bit about how developers will build apps for the new system. Windows 8 apps use the power of HTML5, tapping into the native capabilities of Windows using standard JavaScript and HTML to deliver new kinds of experiences. These new Windows 8 apps are full-screen and touch-optimized, and they easily integrate with the capabilities of the new Windows user interface." So, reading that and assuming the position of a software publisher in a highly competitive market, would you want to publish an "old" style app or a "new windows 8 app"?
There is no failure only feedback
That hardly seems like they are announcing the deprecation of Silverlight/WPF. If anything, they may just be excited to open up an interface that allows JavaScript to (hopefully easily) access the Windows API's (such as the .Net Framework).
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That hardly seems like they are announcing the deprecation of Silverlight/WPF. If anything, they may just be excited to open up an interface that allows JavaScript to (hopefully easily) access the Windows API's (such as the .Net Framework).
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For everyone out there that says that WPF is dead, I'd like them to qualify that: dead how? If Windows 8, and by extension, Windows 'Tablet' are supporting HTML5, then please show me the HTML5 for the Metro UI demos that have been shown on the web in the last couple of weeks. There has been so much baseless FUD on various sites for quite a long time now. Based on the public facts we know: windows phone 7 uses xaml and .net for UI layout and functionality, the animation effects are xaml based, windows 8/tablet has tiles, and the new xbox interface has tiles. Would you base your next billion-dollar OS on an incomplete standard, or on something you own, control, and is complete specified? I think it's fair to say that xaml and .net, and by extension, wpf and silverlight are far from 'dead'. By the same metric, MFC has been dead for 10 years. Precisely as Pete says above, WPF is a mature platform and on a slower release cycle, it's not dead, and certainly not an ex-parrot.
Regards, Barry
How many mainstream WPF apps do you see, apart from VS2010? The only WPF apps I have seen in the enterprise are extremely specialized and are not at all mainstream. On the other hand silverlight is much more mainstream than WPF. Apart from samples and demo, I have not seen a lot of practical WPF application and I have seen many applications. WPF has not been widely popular in real world except as samples and demos. If you compare the popularity of WPF vs Silverlight, Silverlight is easily way ahead.
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Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
from a marketing point of view, there's no excitement in saying "your old stuff will continue to run"
The stupidest marketer in the world would probably still have been able to summon up the neurons required to include one sentence along the lines of "In addition to the great platforms of silverlight wpf blah blah we now will support this...." Honestly if not one person involved could have forseen this issue after the last time they pulled this stunt you have to start wondering if it's really possible for this big a company to be so abjectly incompetent or is there actually fire where all this smoke keeps coming from. I don't buy it sorry. No one is that incompetent, they just can't be. If the best info we can get on this is supposed to be from private discussions with insiders in M.S. I'm not in any sense of the world relieved, only more disquieted by your post.
Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
here have been comments that WPF is no longer being actively developed, and I was worried about this for a while until someone I trust very much reassured me that the slower release cycle on WPF did not mean that it was no longer getting the love; it's a mature platform now, so exciting new features are fewer and further apart.
Sure, did you honestly believe that or were you just hoping? :) Seriously are you familiar at all with WPF? Maturity is pretty fucking far from how I'd describe it.
There is no failure only feedback
John C wrote:
"In addition to the great platforms of silverlight wpf blah blah we now will support this...."
Well, if you watch the video, they DO say that you will still be able to run "the existing windows apps that you use and that you love" In a 4 minute 30 second video, I'd have been really surprised if they had mentioned any development issues - they're talking here about what's new and glossy and it's aimed at exciting the buying public (and shareholders) and (presumably) putting people off being impressed by Mac OS Lion's release
MVVM# - See how I did MVVM my way ___________________________________________ Man, you're a god. - walterhevedeich 26/05/2011 .\\axxx (That's an 'M')
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John C wrote:
"In addition to the great platforms of silverlight wpf blah blah we now will support this...."
Well, if you watch the video, they DO say that you will still be able to run "the existing windows apps that you use and that you love" In a 4 minute 30 second video, I'd have been really surprised if they had mentioned any development issues - they're talking here about what's new and glossy and it's aimed at exciting the buying public (and shareholders) and (presumably) putting people off being impressed by Mac OS Lion's release
MVVM# - See how I did MVVM my way ___________________________________________ Man, you're a god. - walterhevedeich 26/05/2011 .\\axxx (That's an 'M')