Uh oh, if the Germans get pissed of enough its the end of the Euro.
-
What do you think this statement means: "Germany is was always the "scapegoat" when the IMF and EU are were looking for more money. Germany's "dark past" played a special role in this case as in many others" The dark past being refered to here is 70 years ago. The historical roots of the European Union lie in the Second World War. Europeans are determined to prevent such killing and destruction ever happening...Based on the Schuman plan, six countries sign a treaty to run their heavy industries – coal and steel – under a common management. In this way, none can on its own make the weapons of war to turn against the other, as in the past. [^] The very essence of the EU, and hence the Euro are beased on events 70 years ago. Now, as for Germany paying. It has always been a net contributor to the EU, with France receiving the most benefit through the Common Agricultural Policy. This is in part what the Bild alludes to when it says Germany has always been the scapegoat when the EU wanted money. The CAP is often explained[3] as the result of a political compromise between France and Germany: German industry would have access to the French market; in exchange, Germany would help pay for France's farmers. Germany is still the largest net contributor into the EU budget[^] So can you see how through a system of trade Germany has been made to pay over the decades for its "dark past" in a way it was after the First World War but without the same devastating impact of those reparations. Did the Germans want the euro? Here is some interesting background: France and the UK were opposed to German reunification, and attempted to influence the Soviet Union to stop it.[7] However, in late 1989 France extracted German commitment to the Monetary Union in return for support for German reunification.[8]...Germany was cautious about giving up its stable currency...However Germany had opposed previous moves to strengthen the euro group[^] Interesting eh? <
fat__boy wrote:
What do you think this statement means: "Germany is was always the "scapegoat" when the IMF and EU are were looking for more money. Germany's "dark past" played a special role in this case as in many others"
You are quoting direct from a newspaper, a German one at that. I would have thought that you, especially as you are English, would know better than that. Have you been away so long that you have forgotten about the sort of shit papers such as 'The Sun' and 'The Daily Mail' write about. At the end of the day the sole purpose of a newspaper is to sell copies, thye do this by targeting certain section of the population with stories that fuel their specific traits. If I beleived everything I read in the Daily Mail, I would be writing this in Arabic in between prayers to Allah, here is todays daily propaganda scaremongering installment[^]. I am sure The Bild has better than average sales today, as it panders to the its not our fault sentiment its them unforgiving foriegners fault. If I were German I would probably buy the Bild today, but doesn't mean it's an unbiased account of true hard facts.
-
thrakazog wrote:
awwww poor Germany. What did they ever do to anyone?
Funny and Cruel. I admire that about you.
The 3-legged stool of understanding is held up by history, languages, and mathematics. Equipped with these three you can learn anything you want to learn. But if you lack any one of them you are just another ignorant peasant with dung on your boots. R. A. H.
-
Malta had riots, Belarus had riots, Moldova had riots. But your batting average is better than Fat_Boy's. ;)
The 3-legged stool of understanding is held up by history, languages, and mathematics. Equipped with these three you can learn anything you want to learn. But if you lack any one of them you are just another ignorant peasant with dung on your boots. R. A. H.
-
fat__boy wrote:
Germany is paying reparations for the second world war. It is the only profitable working country in Europe which by being shackled to the EU is supporting all the rest.
No they are shackled to it because they wanted the Euro. They pushed for it, because they thought it would benefit them. Now it has gone pear-shaped, they have to pay the consequenses. If it had been a success they would have reaped the benefits. Or do you think Greece and thr rest of Europe forced them too ditch the Mark? Saying that Germany has too foot the Bill because of WW2 is utter Bollocks, it is because they have the largest economy at this moment in time, if France was doing as well as Germany are, they too will be expected to dig deep.
Ᵽompey wrote:
Saying that Germany has too foot the Bill because of WW2 is utter Bollocks, it is because they have the largest economy at this moment in time, if France was doing as well as Germany are, they too will be expected to dig deep.
If I understand, you are saying that because Germany has pursued sounder financial practices and has more worker-bees and fewer drones than many other EU countries, they are expected to transfer their wealth to cover for the unsound economic practices of the countries that have consistently violated the agreements they made when they joined the EU? Why exactly would they want to do that?
The 3-legged stool of understanding is held up by history, languages, and mathematics. Equipped with these three you can learn anything you want to learn. But if you lack any one of them you are just another ignorant peasant with dung on your boots. R. A. H.
-
fat__boy wrote:
What do you think this statement means: "Germany is was always the "scapegoat" when the IMF and EU are were looking for more money. Germany's "dark past" played a special role in this case as in many others"
You are quoting direct from a newspaper, a German one at that. I would have thought that you, especially as you are English, would know better than that. Have you been away so long that you have forgotten about the sort of shit papers such as 'The Sun' and 'The Daily Mail' write about. At the end of the day the sole purpose of a newspaper is to sell copies, thye do this by targeting certain section of the population with stories that fuel their specific traits. If I beleived everything I read in the Daily Mail, I would be writing this in Arabic in between prayers to Allah, here is todays daily propaganda scaremongering installment[^]. I am sure The Bild has better than average sales today, as it panders to the its not our fault sentiment its them unforgiving foriegners fault. If I were German I would probably buy the Bild today, but doesn't mean it's an unbiased account of true hard facts.
Ᵽompey wrote:
it panders to the its not our fault sentiment its them unforgiving foriegners fault
But, as far as I understand what is going on, it isn't Germany's fault and it is the fault of the PIIGS. Am I wrong?
The 3-legged stool of understanding is held up by history, languages, and mathematics. Equipped with these three you can learn anything you want to learn. But if you lack any one of them you are just another ignorant peasant with dung on your boots. R. A. H.
-
Ᵽompey wrote:
Saying that Germany has too foot the Bill because of WW2 is utter Bollocks, it is because they have the largest economy at this moment in time, if France was doing as well as Germany are, they too will be expected to dig deep.
If I understand, you are saying that because Germany has pursued sounder financial practices and has more worker-bees and fewer drones than many other EU countries, they are expected to transfer their wealth to cover for the unsound economic practices of the countries that have consistently violated the agreements they made when they joined the EU? Why exactly would they want to do that?
The 3-legged stool of understanding is held up by history, languages, and mathematics. Equipped with these three you can learn anything you want to learn. But if you lack any one of them you are just another ignorant peasant with dung on your boots. R. A. H.
Oakman wrote:
Why exactly would they want to do that?
They don’t, at least not any more. That’s the whole point of the discussion. Don’t forget they had to bailout the eastern half of their own country some 20 years ago.
There is only one Ashley Judd and Salma Hayek is her prophet! Advertise here – minimum three posts per day are guaranteed.
-
Ᵽompey wrote:
Saying that Germany has too foot the Bill because of WW2 is utter Bollocks, it is because they have the largest economy at this moment in time, if France was doing as well as Germany are, they too will be expected to dig deep.
If I understand, you are saying that because Germany has pursued sounder financial practices and has more worker-bees and fewer drones than many other EU countries, they are expected to transfer their wealth to cover for the unsound economic practices of the countries that have consistently violated the agreements they made when they joined the EU? Why exactly would they want to do that?
The 3-legged stool of understanding is held up by history, languages, and mathematics. Equipped with these three you can learn anything you want to learn. But if you lack any one of them you are just another ignorant peasant with dung on your boots. R. A. H.
Oakman wrote:
they are expected to transfer their wealth to cover for the unsound economic practices of the countries that have consistently violated the agreements they made when they joined the EU
In Greece's case, it is a little worse than that. Essentially, they lied to get into the Euro Zone. The entire accrued pension plan fund had been spent, but it was not declared as such in their financial submissions to the EU. In fact, this was the main reason that the EU established a procedure to 'audit' the books of countries wishing to join the Euro Zone.
-
Oakman wrote:
Why exactly would they want to do that?
They don’t, at least not any more. That’s the whole point of the discussion. Don’t forget they had to bailout the eastern half of their own country some 20 years ago.
There is only one Ashley Judd and Salma Hayek is her prophet! Advertise here – minimum three posts per day are guaranteed.
Deyan Georgiev wrote:
They don’t, at least not any more. That’s the whole point of the discussion.
We have here a failure to communicate[^]
The 3-legged stool of understanding is held up by history, languages, and mathematics. Equipped with these three you can learn anything you want to learn. But if you lack any one of them you are just another ignorant peasant with dung on your boots. R. A. H.
-
Oakman wrote:
they are expected to transfer their wealth to cover for the unsound economic practices of the countries that have consistently violated the agreements they made when they joined the EU
In Greece's case, it is a little worse than that. Essentially, they lied to get into the Euro Zone. The entire accrued pension plan fund had been spent, but it was not declared as such in their financial submissions to the EU. In fact, this was the main reason that the EU established a procedure to 'audit' the books of countries wishing to join the Euro Zone.
Obviously you are another one of those xenophobic Germans.
Chris C-B wrote:
In fact, this was the main reason that the EU established a procedure to 'audit' the books of countries wishing to join the Euro Zone.
That's a good example of locking the barn door after the horse is stolen.
The 3-legged stool of understanding is held up by history, languages, and mathematics. Equipped with these three you can learn anything you want to learn. But if you lack any one of them you are just another ignorant peasant with dung on your boots. R. A. H.
-
Ᵽompey wrote:
how could you forget them
Easy when the Swiss are not an EU member country.
Richard A. Abbott wrote:
Easy when the Swiss are not an EU member country.
And aree not members of the Eurozone, either.
The 3-legged stool of understanding is held up by history, languages, and mathematics. Equipped with these three you can learn anything you want to learn. But if you lack any one of them you are just another ignorant peasant with dung on your boots. R. A. H.
-
Richard A. Abbott wrote:
Easy when the Swiss are not an EU member country.
And aree not members of the Eurozone, either.
The 3-legged stool of understanding is held up by history, languages, and mathematics. Equipped with these three you can learn anything you want to learn. But if you lack any one of them you are just another ignorant peasant with dung on your boots. R. A. H.
-
Ᵽompey wrote:
it panders to the its not our fault sentiment its them unforgiving foriegners fault
But, as far as I understand what is going on, it isn't Germany's fault and it is the fault of the PIIGS. Am I wrong?
The 3-legged stool of understanding is held up by history, languages, and mathematics. Equipped with these three you can learn anything you want to learn. But if you lack any one of them you are just another ignorant peasant with dung on your boots. R. A. H.
-
Obviously you are another one of those xenophobic Germans.
Chris C-B wrote:
In fact, this was the main reason that the EU established a procedure to 'audit' the books of countries wishing to join the Euro Zone.
That's a good example of locking the barn door after the horse is stolen.
The 3-legged stool of understanding is held up by history, languages, and mathematics. Equipped with these three you can learn anything you want to learn. But if you lack any one of them you are just another ignorant peasant with dung on your boots. R. A. H.
Oakman wrote:
Obviously you are another one of those xenophobic Germans.
Hardly. I am an Englishman living in Cyprus. The economies of Greece and Cyprus are tied together, to a degree sufficient for the ratings agencies to be concerned about the state of Cyprus banks, due to the Greek debacle. I have always found it a sound principle to understand the economy of the region in which one is living, and I was merely relating a factoid of which I have been aware for many years.
Oakman wrote:
That's a good example of locking the barn door after the horse is stolen
A sensible precaution, if there are still other horses in the stable. To elaborate a little on the Greek mess (I know nothing about Portugal and Spain, as they are at the other end of the Med), the core problem is a huge, unwieldy, and inefficient civil service that the country neither needs, nor can afford. This is due to an 'interesting' electoral habit. In every election, the hopeful candidates promise a government job for a member of each family that votes for them, which is a considerable plum - high salary, short 'working' hours, and an early and very high pension. If the candidate wins, and does not honour his promise, he will not get re-elected. Since opposing candidates make the same promise... Of course, if your new government job is in the tax office, then you may get extremely rich. A section of Greek society is sufficiently averse to paying taxes, that they bribe the tax people to slash their tax bill to a fraction of true amount. Cyprus likes to follow their big brother, Greece. After the last presidential election here I read a statistic that if you take the government, the civil service, the military, the unemployed, and the state sector (the airline, electricity company, the telco etc) then 47% of the working population are on the state payroll.
-
fat__boy wrote:
What do you think this statement means: "Germany is was always the "scapegoat" when the IMF and EU are were looking for more money. Germany's "dark past" played a special role in this case as in many others"
You are quoting direct from a newspaper, a German one at that. I would have thought that you, especially as you are English, would know better than that. Have you been away so long that you have forgotten about the sort of shit papers such as 'The Sun' and 'The Daily Mail' write about. At the end of the day the sole purpose of a newspaper is to sell copies, thye do this by targeting certain section of the population with stories that fuel their specific traits. If I beleived everything I read in the Daily Mail, I would be writing this in Arabic in between prayers to Allah, here is todays daily propaganda scaremongering installment[^]. I am sure The Bild has better than average sales today, as it panders to the its not our fault sentiment its them unforgiving foriegners fault. If I were German I would probably buy the Bild today, but doesn't mean it's an unbiased account of true hard facts.
Thats as may be and only if saying that Germany has been a scapegoat ecconomically because of its 'dark past' is a way to increase readership. It seems it might equally reduce it by mention the very thing Germans even today find it hard to talk about. What is certain is that the paper, as a German entity, is expressing a sentiment that given past events and the facts has at least an ellement of truth in it: German has always been the biggest net contributor to the EU, and France a net receiver (dont forget it only consisted of France, Germany, Italy, Belgium and Holland at the start). German has always paid and France has always got paid. The fact the EU evolved does not change its prime intent. I tell you what, I will ask the German girl at work what her take is on it. )(When she is back from her hols) :)
"The whole idea that carbon dioxide is the main cause of the recent global warming is based on a guess that was proved false by empirical evidence during the 1990s." climate-models-go-cold
-
Yes, but what I meant is its the governments fault for putting Germany in a currency which has so many weak links, that it was inevitable they would have to bail one or two of the countries at some point.
Ᵽompey wrote:
is its the governments fault for putting Germany in a currency which has so many weak links
That is the case, starting with the Nazi Government. There you can lay the blame squarely.
"The whole idea that carbon dioxide is the main cause of the recent global warming is based on a guess that was proved false by empirical evidence during the 1990s." climate-models-go-cold
-
fat__boy wrote:
Denmark, Holland, Belgium,...Sweeden, Czech republic, Spain, Portgual, Ireland,Malta, Estonia, Lithuania, Finland, Hungary, and Slovenia
Wrong on all of the above counts (but not Austria (though the Indians rioted in Austria) or Luxembourg) I know you won't believe me so try Googling the country name followed by the word, "riot." I think the problem is that riots are becoming such a part of the daily life over there, that you guys don't notice them. That's not quite true over here, though I wouldn't be surprised if we caught up in a year or so.
The 3-legged stool of understanding is held up by history, languages, and mathematics. Equipped with these three you can learn anything you want to learn. But if you lack any one of them you are just another ignorant peasant with dung on your boots. R. A. H.
Well, you did say major riots. Actualy, yo raise an interesting point. Why does the US have so few riots and Europe a reasonable number? Does it go back to the issue we discussed recently where people in the US feel they own their country, and therefore have too much respect for it, and love, to riot. Whereas Euopeans just feel like inhabitants of a particular piece of soil and need to shake the cage in order to get heard? After all, much of Europes current freedom comes from riots/revoloution. --edit-- And do you know what, I totally ignored riots by muslems. In which case yes, Denmark, Holand, Belgium all had riots in th past few years. Whats interesting is that I dont consider these people as part of these countries. :) --edit2-- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_race_riots[^] Dependiong on what you call major the Belgium and Holland riots were fairly uninteresting. France is a biggy. Many of the other riots in Europe are between ethnic minorities and of little impact. Note though how active the UK is. It firly dwarves other countries, depending of course on how accurate wiki is.
"The whole idea that carbon dioxide is the main cause of the recent global warming is based on a guess that was proved false by empirical evidence during the 1990s." climate-models-go-cold
modified on Friday, June 24, 2011 1:35 AM
-
Ᵽompey wrote:
Saying that Germany has too foot the Bill because of WW2 is utter Bollocks, it is because they have the largest economy at this moment in time, if France was doing as well as Germany are, they too will be expected to dig deep.
If I understand, you are saying that because Germany has pursued sounder financial practices and has more worker-bees and fewer drones than many other EU countries, they are expected to transfer their wealth to cover for the unsound economic practices of the countries that have consistently violated the agreements they made when they joined the EU? Why exactly would they want to do that?
The 3-legged stool of understanding is held up by history, languages, and mathematics. Equipped with these three you can learn anything you want to learn. But if you lack any one of them you are just another ignorant peasant with dung on your boots. R. A. H.
Oakman wrote:
If I understand, you are saying that because Germany has pursued sounder financial practices and has more worker-bees and fewer drones than many other EU countries, they are expected to transfer their wealth to cover
Yes, they knew that when they joined up, they all knew that it would only work if they all stayed afloat. Germany knew that it didn't matter how strong they got, if another member started to falter, then it goes without saying it would impact on them to. This is how it works in Europe, for example the Uk, pays the EU 40 billion Euro each year as our 'reward' for being profitable, Spain takes 40 Billion so in effect we pay Spain 40Billion.
Oakman wrote:
unsound economic practices of the countries that have consistently violated the agreements they made when they joined the EU?
I'm pretty sure all countries had to employ a bit of jiggery pokery in order to ride the storm, sme more than others, but I doubt Germany were unaware of this. It was the logical step i.e. the downturn in the markets hit, the guidlines become too restrictive, guidelines tempoarily go out the window as Greece tries to recover, untill we get to where we are now.
-
Well, you did say major riots. Actualy, yo raise an interesting point. Why does the US have so few riots and Europe a reasonable number? Does it go back to the issue we discussed recently where people in the US feel they own their country, and therefore have too much respect for it, and love, to riot. Whereas Euopeans just feel like inhabitants of a particular piece of soil and need to shake the cage in order to get heard? After all, much of Europes current freedom comes from riots/revoloution. --edit-- And do you know what, I totally ignored riots by muslems. In which case yes, Denmark, Holand, Belgium all had riots in th past few years. Whats interesting is that I dont consider these people as part of these countries. :) --edit2-- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_race_riots[^] Dependiong on what you call major the Belgium and Holland riots were fairly uninteresting. France is a biggy. Many of the other riots in Europe are between ethnic minorities and of little impact. Note though how active the UK is. It firly dwarves other countries, depending of course on how accurate wiki is.
"The whole idea that carbon dioxide is the main cause of the recent global warming is based on a guess that was proved false by empirical evidence during the 1990s." climate-models-go-cold
modified on Friday, June 24, 2011 1:35 AM
fat__boy wrote:
Why does the US have so few riots and Europe a reasonable number
Because the US doesn't know how to have a good time. It's hard to riot from inside a car. So it would mean they would have to get out of the car. They would get hungry after 20 mins. :laugh: On a serious note I think the way everything is so far apart in the US inhibits the likelyhood of riots comparedd to the built-up European cities, also there is the history factor, the US is too young to have deep-rooted tribal feuds like Northern Ireland. Another factor is the guns both with the public and the police. We can go to London, smash things up, fight the pigs and the worst that will happen is a Truncheon round the head. If the police and a fair few rioters had guns that would largely reduce the numbers of 'game' rioters.
-
Obviously you are another one of those xenophobic Germans.
Chris C-B wrote:
In fact, this was the main reason that the EU established a procedure to 'audit' the books of countries wishing to join the Euro Zone.
That's a good example of locking the barn door after the horse is stolen.
The 3-legged stool of understanding is held up by history, languages, and mathematics. Equipped with these three you can learn anything you want to learn. But if you lack any one of them you are just another ignorant peasant with dung on your boots. R. A. H.