Career Direction...
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Member 2941392 wrote:
If you don't have a CS degree, get one
I would think this is irrelevant past a certain age and level of (relevant) experience.
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity RAH
Silly Code Monkey, you are saying, "I wish the world worked a different way." Yeah, I suppose after enough years it ought not to matter so much. But Hiring Manager has 100 resumes to go through, and most of them are idiots. S/he doesn't spend very much time on the first pass, where s/he needs to get rid of 80. Or it's Nice Personnel Lady, rather than Hiring Manager at all going through the first pass, and she treats the list of job requirements like it's graven in stone because she doesn't understand any of it. Or it's Badly Written Robot, which pukes because it doesn't say BSCS, because you went to Berkeley where CS was under the Math department at one time, or some such. Plus, I gotta say that when I was a hiring manager, I really wanted to see that CS degree. Those of you without CS degrees are getting red and smoking right now because I'm such an idiot that I'd have passed by your terrific experience and skills. Which is true in your specific case. But you throw away a whole bunch of bums, posers, time wasters, and idiots along with that one very qualified individual when you sort on degree. I've known guys with no degree who wanted to be devs. Many of them were pretty bright, after a fashion. But they all were kinda restless people who didn't like to get a problem in their teeth and shake it until it was dead. They wouldn't hang around for 3 years to get the whole thing done, including the tests and documentation, because they couldn't focus. See, having a four year degree means one very important thing. It means you stayed with something hard and often boring for four whole years, even when you weren't getting paid. I think a degree is more predictive of success than any other item on a resume, though of course there's no guarantee.In fact, I remember this guy with a CS degree from MIT, who had so many personal problems he could not get any productive work one. He had elevated rote memorization to his principle paradigm of operation. Anything he could memorize, he was ok at. Anything else, he couldn't do. It took months to get rid of him. Sigh.
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I was an Electronics Technician in the Navy after a couple years studying the same in college. When I got out of the Navy in 1979 I started coding assembler drivers for micro-controller systems that predated PCs, and for bit-slice architecture systems. Then along came the original 4.77 MHz, 8088-based IBM PC (with dual floppy drives). I used MASM (Microsoft's Macro Assembler) and C (also by Microsoft), then Borland came out with Turbo Pascal. Eventually, there came Windows 3.1 and Windows application development in C then in C++. When the Internet burst onto the technological scene I migrated over to developing Java applets, then I did server side applications development (still in Java) at a dot-com start-up until the dot-com bubble burst back in 2001. Software contracts (and jobs) dried up then, so I shifted over into Software Quality Assurance (in aerospace: AS9100, DO-178B, etc.) in 2002. So, why the history lesson? At the end of 2009 I got downsized out of my SQA job and haven't been able to find similar work since. Thinking that I might improve my chances of finding work by broadening the range of jobs I pursue, I started looking at software jobs once again. The thing is, I've barely touched coding since 2001. I've fiddled around with the Netbeans IDE from time to time, and I recently got my hands on MS Visual Studio 2010, but it's amazing to me how much I've forgotten. The more I muck around with it the more I begin to remember stuff. What's more, it occurs to me that since I learned all that stuff once before I'm sure I can relearn it. But, can I relearn it fast enough. So, the question I wanted to ask the group is, is it really worth trying to sell myself as a developer after having been out of it for almost a decade? I've even given thought to applying for entry level development positions. All opinions and advice are appreciated. ~Patrick http://www.linkedin.com/in/phagerty
Something I do not see in the description you provided is any reference to formal education. In my personal experience, skill and experience has to be backed up by credentials from a respected institution. During my early college days I made a point of taking all the Fortran courses that were offered. (Fortran was the language of the day.) More than once I flunked an exam because the "school answers" were wrong. Luckily, my professors were open to discussion and I ended up with an A+ and tutoring the other students. Just saying I had knowledge and showing proven experience would never have been enough as I proceeded along a professional path. Additional discussion on career topics can be found at http://informationanthology.net/CareerMentor/[^]
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Even if you have recent dev experience, it's hard to find work in this job climate. I saw a horrible statistic on the nightly news, that if you're 55, and you get laid off, the chance that you'll *ever* find work again is only 35 percent(!) Age discrimination is a fact of life especially in the software business, which values this years' hot language and inexpensive new college grads. The good news is that you're way more employable with software dev experience than you are as a general manager or practically any other skilled job. First, decide how badly you want to work as a dev. If you only half remember how to code, and your experience is 10 years old, and you don't have a CS degree, and you aren't motivated to fix these issues, then don't even bother. Your chances of getting a dev job in your current state are nil. And why should they be any better? There are plenty of candidates who do know their stuff. So what to do... If you don't have a CS degree, get one. Your turn-down rate will be like 90% without one. Doesn't matter that you know your stuff, the degree proves you can stick with something for 4 years. If you're having a hard time getting a regular full-time dev job, try contracting. The stakes are lower because the employer knows they can get rid of you no-fuss, no-muss if you're a failure. If you knew C++ and Java, you ought to be pretty employable. If you don't remember your C++ and your Java, then study, duh! You can't afford to do less than perfectly in a phone screen or in-house coding interview, and you'll face a lot of that.
Wanted to offer a slightly different view of older folks finding jobs. I am 60 years old with 35 years of technical experience. I have NEVER had a problem finding a job. Just 1.5 years ago I switched companies in the middle of this job climate. The interview lasted all of 15 minutes and I was hired. My time between jobs was zero. I had my going-away lunch on Friday and reported to the new job on Monday. Here is what I have seen with some older folks: 1. They expect senior level pay for doing junior level work. 2. Their knowledge is ancient and has little to no value. "Experience" does not make up for that. 3. They do not think they should be supervised by someone who could be their grandchild. 4. They do not blend well with the younger set. They also do not try to mentor the younger ones. 5. They expect respect and tenure without accomplishment. 6. They have gotten off the study-learn-work-produce cycle. Additional discussion on deeper issues affecting careers can be found at [^]
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I was an Electronics Technician in the Navy after a couple years studying the same in college. When I got out of the Navy in 1979 I started coding assembler drivers for micro-controller systems that predated PCs, and for bit-slice architecture systems. Then along came the original 4.77 MHz, 8088-based IBM PC (with dual floppy drives). I used MASM (Microsoft's Macro Assembler) and C (also by Microsoft), then Borland came out with Turbo Pascal. Eventually, there came Windows 3.1 and Windows application development in C then in C++. When the Internet burst onto the technological scene I migrated over to developing Java applets, then I did server side applications development (still in Java) at a dot-com start-up until the dot-com bubble burst back in 2001. Software contracts (and jobs) dried up then, so I shifted over into Software Quality Assurance (in aerospace: AS9100, DO-178B, etc.) in 2002. So, why the history lesson? At the end of 2009 I got downsized out of my SQA job and haven't been able to find similar work since. Thinking that I might improve my chances of finding work by broadening the range of jobs I pursue, I started looking at software jobs once again. The thing is, I've barely touched coding since 2001. I've fiddled around with the Netbeans IDE from time to time, and I recently got my hands on MS Visual Studio 2010, but it's amazing to me how much I've forgotten. The more I muck around with it the more I begin to remember stuff. What's more, it occurs to me that since I learned all that stuff once before I'm sure I can relearn it. But, can I relearn it fast enough. So, the question I wanted to ask the group is, is it really worth trying to sell myself as a developer after having been out of it for almost a decade? I've even given thought to applying for entry level development positions. All opinions and advice are appreciated. ~Patrick http://www.linkedin.com/in/phagerty
Look for software QA positions. You can combine and use both skill sets. There's some info, training, and perhaps certification on the web for this. At least there's a software QA organization. I worked for a messed up firm in Denver that had such positions. The companies that need them the most are typically disorganized and don't know much about software so if you're patient and can do some teaching (and not get too frustrated) then it can be a good position for you. Software QA people don't code but are expected to have some background in it and know at least the basic buzz words. I think that this code be a very good career path for you. Most of the software QA people don't have and rigorous (or realistic) QA background so you would easily eclipse them once you got a little up to date software experience.
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Look for software QA positions. You can combine and use both skill sets. There's some info, training, and perhaps certification on the web for this. At least there's a software QA organization. I worked for a messed up firm in Denver that had such positions. The companies that need them the most are typically disorganized and don't know much about software so if you're patient and can do some teaching (and not get too frustrated) then it can be a good position for you. Software QA people don't code but are expected to have some background in it and know at least the basic buzz words. I think that this code be a very good career path for you. Most of the software QA people don't have and rigorous (or realistic) QA background so you would easily eclipse them once you got a little up to date software experience.
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Member 2941392 wrote:
If you don't have a CS degree, get one
I would think this is irrelevant past a certain age and level of (relevant) experience.
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity RAH
That's the way I feel. But I'm finding that isn't always the case. I may not have a degree, but I've got record of life-long learning. I've constantly kept my skills current. Since shifting to SQA, the training I've taken has been more along the lines of quality management instead of software development.
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Software QA is exactly what I've been doing since 2002. The jobs have been scarce. That's why I'm looking at widening my search to include software development.
I meant in the commercial, non-aerospace world. I remember that there is an organization that deals with software QA but I don't remember them as aerospace or military oriented. There's also something about a job positions that deals with software change management (i.e. version control, processing builds, etc) that might be a possibility for you. Generally, if you can demonstrate proficiency in coding/development with a specific language/dev platform you should be able to find a contract or a job then work your way up. A CS degree helps. Doing some projects really help (as was suggested earlier). Certification might help. - Grant
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Wanted to offer a slightly different view of older folks finding jobs. I am 60 years old with 35 years of technical experience. I have NEVER had a problem finding a job. Just 1.5 years ago I switched companies in the middle of this job climate. The interview lasted all of 15 minutes and I was hired. My time between jobs was zero. I had my going-away lunch on Friday and reported to the new job on Monday. Here is what I have seen with some older folks: 1. They expect senior level pay for doing junior level work. 2. Their knowledge is ancient and has little to no value. "Experience" does not make up for that. 3. They do not think they should be supervised by someone who could be their grandchild. 4. They do not blend well with the younger set. They also do not try to mentor the younger ones. 5. They expect respect and tenure without accomplishment. 6. They have gotten off the study-learn-work-produce cycle. Additional discussion on deeper issues affecting careers can be found at [^]
JackSimmons wrote:
1. They expect senior level pay for doing junior level work.
2. Their knowledge is ancient and has little to no value. "Experience" does not make up for that.
3. They do not think they should be supervised by someone who could be their grandchild.
4. They do not blend well with the younger set. They also do not try to mentor the younger ones.
5. They expect respect and tenure without accomplishment.
6. They have gotten off the study-learn-work-produce cycle.1. I have always maintained the highest standards of professionalism and quality in my work. I have the recommendations of former managers and supervisors to support this. 2. I have constantly been keeping up with the latest technology, and continuously been involved with some form of training. As I mentioned in another reply, I kept up with the latest software technology until I switched to software quality assurance, then my training focused on quality management, and that's why my software skills are a little rusty. 3. If the kid is competent in his role, I can't imagine there being a problem. A supervisor is, typically, an organizer -- one who orchestrates the activities of others. I've always found that if you treat others with respect, no matter what their age, you usually get respect in return. 4. Training and mentoring younger, less experienced workers has always been one of the most rewarding and gratifying experiences of my life. I'm told that I'm a very good instructor and mentor. I'm currently enrolled at a local community college in a class where most of the students are less than half my age. I enjoy my interactions with these young folks. Ok, sometimes they do or say something really dumb, but before I get too critical of them for this I stop and think about all the really dumb things I've done and said when I was younger. I recognize that I've "been there, done that" and I get over it. 5. I expect respect and acknowledgement for my accomplishments, not my age. My age is merely the result of continuing to breathe. I have a long history of accomplishments and performance in my roles and responsibilities. 6. As I've stated above, I've never stopped learning and producing. Here's what troubles me about your post: who are these older folks you're talking about? I've been in classes with men and women my age and older who are keeping their knowledge and skill up to date. I've worked with people my age and older who ar
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Wanted to offer a slightly different view of older folks finding jobs. I am 60 years old with 35 years of technical experience. I have NEVER had a problem finding a job. Just 1.5 years ago I switched companies in the middle of this job climate. The interview lasted all of 15 minutes and I was hired. My time between jobs was zero. I had my going-away lunch on Friday and reported to the new job on Monday. Here is what I have seen with some older folks: 1. They expect senior level pay for doing junior level work. 2. Their knowledge is ancient and has little to no value. "Experience" does not make up for that. 3. They do not think they should be supervised by someone who could be their grandchild. 4. They do not blend well with the younger set. They also do not try to mentor the younger ones. 5. They expect respect and tenure without accomplishment. 6. They have gotten off the study-learn-work-produce cycle. Additional discussion on deeper issues affecting careers can be found at [^]
Nice subtle plug for your website and availability for lectures. The list of potential problems of older workers is on the money. It all boils down to sense of entitlement, which is the national behavioral defect of the United States right now. Still and all, hiring processes that discriminate unhelpfully against older workers, and hiring managers without adequate career experience create unnecessary problems even for qualified and motivated older workers.
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Nice subtle plug for your website and availability for lectures. The list of potential problems of older workers is on the money. It all boils down to sense of entitlement, which is the national behavioral defect of the United States right now. Still and all, hiring processes that discriminate unhelpfully against older workers, and hiring managers without adequate career experience create unnecessary problems even for qualified and motivated older workers.
It is true that inexperienced hiring managers are sometimes scared off by experienced applicants. Even when hired, experienced staff can have a difficult time coping with inexperienced and insecure "managers" who feel they must compete with those they are supposed to lead. An example I saw was a branch chief who did not want to take on any work he could not do himself. He had a BS degree and a staff with MS and Ph.D. degrees. Eventually, the entire staff left and the branch chief was left with a single non-degreed intern. Yet, he survived as a manager because of his connections with the executive staff. The whole organization suffered. The situation helped feed the rapid departure of customers. Still they persisted until the company shrank to its natural and much lower level of capability and size.
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JackSimmons wrote:
1. They expect senior level pay for doing junior level work.
2. Their knowledge is ancient and has little to no value. "Experience" does not make up for that.
3. They do not think they should be supervised by someone who could be their grandchild.
4. They do not blend well with the younger set. They also do not try to mentor the younger ones.
5. They expect respect and tenure without accomplishment.
6. They have gotten off the study-learn-work-produce cycle.1. I have always maintained the highest standards of professionalism and quality in my work. I have the recommendations of former managers and supervisors to support this. 2. I have constantly been keeping up with the latest technology, and continuously been involved with some form of training. As I mentioned in another reply, I kept up with the latest software technology until I switched to software quality assurance, then my training focused on quality management, and that's why my software skills are a little rusty. 3. If the kid is competent in his role, I can't imagine there being a problem. A supervisor is, typically, an organizer -- one who orchestrates the activities of others. I've always found that if you treat others with respect, no matter what their age, you usually get respect in return. 4. Training and mentoring younger, less experienced workers has always been one of the most rewarding and gratifying experiences of my life. I'm told that I'm a very good instructor and mentor. I'm currently enrolled at a local community college in a class where most of the students are less than half my age. I enjoy my interactions with these young folks. Ok, sometimes they do or say something really dumb, but before I get too critical of them for this I stop and think about all the really dumb things I've done and said when I was younger. I recognize that I've "been there, done that" and I get over it. 5. I expect respect and acknowledgement for my accomplishments, not my age. My age is merely the result of continuing to breathe. I have a long history of accomplishments and performance in my roles and responsibilities. 6. As I've stated above, I've never stopped learning and producing. Here's what troubles me about your post: who are these older folks you're talking about? I've been in classes with men and women my age and older who are keeping their knowledge and skill up to date. I've worked with people my age and older who ar
I too have met many many older people who are what Patrick describes. Yet, there are some who are not that way and they tarnish the reputation of the general group. Here are some reasons that may be affecting the situation for older people: 1. As Patrick and others have said, pure age discrimination. Sad but true. 2. Inexperienced hiring managers who fear experienced people, seeing them as competition. 3. Companies who have no need for highly qualified and experienced staff. 4. The applicant is unwilling to move geographically. 5. Lack of knowledge of their industry so that they do not know where to apply.
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It is true that inexperienced hiring managers are sometimes scared off by experienced applicants. Even when hired, experienced staff can have a difficult time coping with inexperienced and insecure "managers" who feel they must compete with those they are supposed to lead. An example I saw was a branch chief who did not want to take on any work he could not do himself. He had a BS degree and a staff with MS and Ph.D. degrees. Eventually, the entire staff left and the branch chief was left with a single non-degreed intern. Yet, he survived as a manager because of his connections with the executive staff. The whole organization suffered. The situation helped feed the rapid departure of customers. Still they persisted until the company shrank to its natural and much lower level of capability and size.
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Inexperienced managers don't have to be pathological. Sometimes an inexperienced manager just doesn't recognize the value of experience. They can't, because they don't have any experience.
What you say is true. Whenever I form a technical team I gather around me people who fill in the gaps in my own knowledge and experience. But, it is true that one has to have a certain level of knowledge and experience to know where the gaps are. In the case of a manager, they have to have enough experience to know that they need more experience and to thus gather around themselves people with that missing experience. For this to work, it is necessary to put pride aside, for both the manager and those hired.