This is not right
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I'm not saying what they are doing is right but consider the following from the article: INS spokesman Arcaute said those arrested had violated immigration laws, overstayed their visas, or were wanted for crimes. What do you propose happen to people who violate immigration laws and commit other crimes? Shouldn't they be detained or arrested? They would be in just about every other country I can think of. The UK detains immigration violators don't they? France arrests people who commit crimes don't they? These kinds of comments are complete BS: Islamic community leaders said many of the detainees had been living, working and paying taxes in the United States for five or 10 years, and had families here. So what? If it was done illegally they need to be stopped. I've lived in the US for 39 years, working and paying taxes for 24 years. If I commit a crime I fully expect to be arrested. Why is this any different? "Terrorists most likely wouldn't come to the INS to register. It is really a bad way to go about it. They are being treated as criminals and that really goes against American ideals of fairness, and justice and democracy," Khan said. Who said anything about terrorism? If a police officer pulls over a car for speeding and determines that the driver is wanted for a different crime doesn't he arrest him? I think too many people are getting too politically correct and are losing site of the big picture. People are responsible for their actions. PERIOD! If you are an illegal immigrant you deserve to be detained and/or deported, if you commit a crime you deserve to be arrested. Mike Mullikin :beer:
The goal of any programmer is to build something that will last at least until he's finished building it. - - Anonymous
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Fazlul Kabir wrote: I've no problem with that if that was applied to illegal immigrants of all national origins My sentiments exactly.
Jason Henderson
start page ; articles henderson is coming henderson is an opponent's worst nightmare * googlism * -
Mike Mullikin wrote: What do you propose happen to people who violate immigration laws and commit other crimes? Shouldn't they be detained or arrested? Yes, but this seems like entrapment to me. They came to the INS to be registered, not to be arrested. It just seems like an underhanded way of getting illegal immigrants out of the country. Shouldn't we do this for all immigrants and not just arabs?
Jason Henderson
start page ; articles henderson is coming henderson is an opponent's worst nightmare * googlism *Jason Henderson wrote: Yes, but this seems like entrapment to me. They came to the INS to be registered, not to be arrested. It just seems like an underhanded way of getting illegal immigrants out of the country. Wrong, they have no expectation of privacy and none of their "rights" have been violated. I think it's highly likely that the INS had no clue how many middle eastern immigrants were here illegally. Which brings me to another point. Why do we call them immigrants? That term invokes an image of "poor" foreigners following the letter of the law and trying to forge a new life for their family in a new country with the idea that they would eventually become naturalized citizens. That simply isn't the case here. We have a collection of foreigners who have broken immigration laws and committed other crimes and only now are they crying about fairness and democracy. Mike Mullikin :beer:
The goal of any programmer is to build something that will last at least until he's finished building it. - - Anonymous
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Jason Henderson wrote: Yes, but this seems like entrapment to me. They came to the INS to be registered, not to be arrested. It just seems like an underhanded way of getting illegal immigrants out of the country. Wrong, they have no expectation of privacy and none of their "rights" have been violated. I think it's highly likely that the INS had no clue how many middle eastern immigrants were here illegally. Which brings me to another point. Why do we call them immigrants? That term invokes an image of "poor" foreigners following the letter of the law and trying to forge a new life for their family in a new country with the idea that they would eventually become naturalized citizens. That simply isn't the case here. We have a collection of foreigners who have broken immigration laws and committed other crimes and only now are they crying about fairness and democracy. Mike Mullikin :beer:
The goal of any programmer is to build something that will last at least until he's finished building it. - - Anonymous
Mike Mullikin wrote: Wrong, they have no expectation of privacy and none of their "rights" have been violated. I think it's highly likely that the INS had no clue how many middle eastern immigrants were here illegally. They should have an expectation of fairness. If we do this to arabs we must do it to all nationalities. Mike Mullikin wrote: Why do we call them immigrants? That term invokes an image of "poor" foreigners following the letter of the law and trying to forge a new life for their family in a new country with the idea that they would eventually become naturalized citizens. That simply isn't the case here. We have a collection of foreigners who have broken immigration laws and committed other crimes and only now are they crying about fairness and democracy. Just because they have broken immigration laws does not mean they are bad people. Ignorance of the law is no excuse, but that does not make them terrorists. If they are legitamately seeking a better life, the INS should allow them to stay by extending their visas, etc.
Jason Henderson
start page ; articles henderson is coming henderson is an opponent's worst nightmare * googlism * -
True enough, Karl. but for this it is far from enough. :mad: I'm planning on reading up more on this, and at the least writing to officials about my disgust. things really appear to be getting out of hand. BW "If you enjoy what you do, you'll never work another day in your life." - Confucius
I just sent an email to the White House, but I doubt he will ever see it. I should have a direct line to GW since I contributed to his campaign!
Jason Henderson
start page ; articles henderson is coming henderson is an opponent's worst nightmare * googlism * -
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Fazlul Kabir wrote: I've no problem with that if that was applied to illegal immigrants of all national origins. We have to start somewhere don't we? There has been an increase in Islamic terrorism lately so Islamic countries get targeted first. If non-terrorist Islamics want to blame anyone, I suggest they start with their terrorist bretheren and the governments who support them. The US is trying to protect itself and it's "legal" citizens. Why is this a bad thing? Are they being "heavy handed"? Maybe. Would you rather we ignore the problem? Mike Mullikin :beer:
The goal of any programmer is to build something that will last at least until he's finished building it. - - Anonymous
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Mike Mullikin wrote: Wrong, they have no expectation of privacy and none of their "rights" have been violated. I think it's highly likely that the INS had no clue how many middle eastern immigrants were here illegally. They should have an expectation of fairness. If we do this to arabs we must do it to all nationalities. Mike Mullikin wrote: Why do we call them immigrants? That term invokes an image of "poor" foreigners following the letter of the law and trying to forge a new life for their family in a new country with the idea that they would eventually become naturalized citizens. That simply isn't the case here. We have a collection of foreigners who have broken immigration laws and committed other crimes and only now are they crying about fairness and democracy. Just because they have broken immigration laws does not mean they are bad people. Ignorance of the law is no excuse, but that does not make them terrorists. If they are legitamately seeking a better life, the INS should allow them to stay by extending their visas, etc.
Jason Henderson
start page ; articles henderson is coming henderson is an opponent's worst nightmare * googlism *Jason Henderson wrote: If we do this to arabs we must do it to all nationalities. All in good time, but the problem of "illegals" has become so bad it would be impossible to do everyone at one time. They started with Islamic countries due to the current situation. Jason Henderson wrote: Ignorance of the law is no excuse, but that does not make them terrorists. Who said terrorists? Not me. Not the INS. They showed up for a screening and it was determined that they were here illegally or had broken the law in some other fashion. I ask again - what do you propose happen to these people? Jason Henderson wrote: If they are legitamately seeking a better life, the INS should allow them to stay by extending their visas, etc. Huh? We can't open the doors wide or we'd be overrun. We have immigration rules and immigration laws and immigration limits for a reason. We cannot just ignore them to be politically correct when it suits us. Mike Mullikin :beer:
The goal of any programmer is to build something that will last at least until he's finished building it. - - Anonymous
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wow, GWB and pals never cease to disgust me. Jason Henderson wrote: may be leaning more to Chris Losinger's point of view after reading this give in to the dark side. :suss: but seriously, i simply feel that GWB is a danger to everything this country is supposed to be about. -c
Chris Losinger wrote: I simply feel that GWB is a danger to everything this country is supposed to be about. Like letting illegal aliens and criminals walk the street? I think your hate for Bush is clouding your judgement. Are you disgusted that these people were asked to register with the INS or that they were arrested for their crimes? Mike Mullikin :beer:
The goal of any programmer is to build something that will last at least until he's finished building it. - - Anonymous
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I just gave this post a 5. Welcome to the police state folks :~ The tigress is here :D
Trollslayer wrote: Welcome to the police state folks Out of curiousity, when the UK immigration service finds people in violation of immigration law or immigrants that have committed other crimes, what do they do? Mike Mullikin :beer:
The goal of any programmer is to build something that will last at least until he's finished building it. - - Anonymous
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I'm not saying what they are doing is right but consider the following from the article: INS spokesman Arcaute said those arrested had violated immigration laws, overstayed their visas, or were wanted for crimes. What do you propose happen to people who violate immigration laws and commit other crimes? Shouldn't they be detained or arrested? They would be in just about every other country I can think of. The UK detains immigration violators don't they? France arrests people who commit crimes don't they? These kinds of comments are complete BS: Islamic community leaders said many of the detainees had been living, working and paying taxes in the United States for five or 10 years, and had families here. So what? If it was done illegally they need to be stopped. I've lived in the US for 39 years, working and paying taxes for 24 years. If I commit a crime I fully expect to be arrested. Why is this any different? "Terrorists most likely wouldn't come to the INS to register. It is really a bad way to go about it. They are being treated as criminals and that really goes against American ideals of fairness, and justice and democracy," Khan said. Who said anything about terrorism? If a police officer pulls over a car for speeding and determines that the driver is wanted for a different crime doesn't he arrest him? I think too many people are getting too politically correct and are losing site of the big picture. People are responsible for their actions. PERIOD! If you are an illegal immigrant you deserve to be detained and/or deported, if you commit a crime you deserve to be arrested. Mike Mullikin :beer:
The goal of any programmer is to build something that will last at least until he's finished building it. - - Anonymous
Mike Mullikin wrote: but consider the following from the article: I'm surprised you're the first to point this out - the whole time i was reading the article, i was looking for some information on the grounds they were being detained under. This explanation could be a cop-out, but sounds plausible. Some thoughts:
- INS has a history of botching things like this. I would like to see some public outcry generated, if it serves to increase scrutiny and accountability of INS officials.
- Non-citizens do not have the same rights under US law as citizens do. I doubt this is unusual in many other countries.
- We probably shouldn't be limiting this to those of specific nationalities. Realistically though, INS probably doesn't have the resources to process all the Mexican immigrants (legal and otherwise), and even if they did and sent all the illegals south of the border, we'd be hurt by the sudden drop in cheap labor.
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Shog9 Atheists are boring. They only talk about god. - peterchen, “Atheists are idiots”
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Trollslayer wrote: Welcome to the police state folks Out of curiousity, when the UK immigration service finds people in violation of immigration law or immigrants that have committed other crimes, what do they do? Mike Mullikin :beer:
The goal of any programmer is to build something that will last at least until he's finished building it. - - Anonymous
These were people living and working there LEGALLY - thats the point X| The tigress is here :D
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Jason Henderson wrote: If we do this to arabs we must do it to all nationalities. All in good time, but the problem of "illegals" has become so bad it would be impossible to do everyone at one time. They started with Islamic countries due to the current situation. Jason Henderson wrote: Ignorance of the law is no excuse, but that does not make them terrorists. Who said terrorists? Not me. Not the INS. They showed up for a screening and it was determined that they were here illegally or had broken the law in some other fashion. I ask again - what do you propose happen to these people? Jason Henderson wrote: If they are legitamately seeking a better life, the INS should allow them to stay by extending their visas, etc. Huh? We can't open the doors wide or we'd be overrun. We have immigration rules and immigration laws and immigration limits for a reason. We cannot just ignore them to be politically correct when it suits us. Mike Mullikin :beer:
The goal of any programmer is to build something that will last at least until he's finished building it. - - Anonymous
Mike Mullikin wrote: Huh? We can't open the doors wide or we'd be overrun. We have immigration rules and immigration laws and immigration limits for a reason. We cannot just ignore them to be politically correct when it suits us. I see your point, but I still don't like how they're doing it.
Jason Henderson
start page ; articles henderson is coming henderson is an opponent's worst nightmare * googlism * -
Trollslayer wrote: Welcome to the police state folks Out of curiousity, when the UK immigration service finds people in violation of immigration law or immigrants that have committed other crimes, what do they do? Mike Mullikin :beer:
The goal of any programmer is to build something that will last at least until he's finished building it. - - Anonymous
BTW - does this remind of that canadian a month or so ago ? Deported to Syria despite his family having emigrated to Canada when he was 10 ? And noone bothered to check.......... Has he been found yet ? The tigress is here :D
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http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&cid=564&u=/nm/20021219/ts_nm/attack_immigration_dc_3&printer=1[^] I may be leaning more to Chris Losinger's point of view after reading this. If this keeps up, Bush will lose my vote to the Libertarians.
Jason Henderson
start page ; articles henderson is coming henderson is an opponent's worst nightmare * googlism *It's obscene! Why is this limited to Islamic visitors? Why not all of them? "INS spokesman Arcaute said those arrested had violated immigration laws, overstayed their visas, or were wanted for crimes" So are many thousands, perhaps millions of illegal immigrants from other countries - they all should be rounded up without delay! This is intolerable behavior by the INS. Just because Islamic folks don't have a strong lobby in Congress the INS thinks they can get away with this travesty. The truly infuriating part of it is that they're right - they can get away with it, and by doing so can make themselves appear to be a model of efficiency, to be rewarded with more budget and authority later. :mad: If we are to be a society of law, then the law must apply equally to all - selective enforcement is a travesty! Better anarchy than the arbitrary and capricious exercise of authority by governments... "How many times do I have to flush before you go away?" - Megan Forbes, on Management (12/5/2002)
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http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&cid=564&u=/nm/20021219/ts_nm/attack_immigration_dc_3&printer=1[^] I may be leaning more to Chris Losinger's point of view after reading this. If this keeps up, Bush will lose my vote to the Libertarians.
Jason Henderson
start page ; articles henderson is coming henderson is an opponent's worst nightmare * googlism *Too little information is nearly as bad as flat-out incorrect information. Read the story as reported by CBS: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/12/19/attack/main533627.shtml[^] Also the FOX News description of some of the problems with the system: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,73281,00.html[^] And an article about the budget problems the INS is facing, which could be contributing to some of the delays in processing reported to have caused some of the detainees to become illegal: http://www.s-t.com/daily/12-02/12-18-02/a01lo007.htm[^] Finally, lest anyone think we're rounding up Muslim citizens, clarification on *who* needs to register (taken from the first link above):
REGISTRATION REQUIRED Federal law requires males over age 16 to register with the INS if they hail from certain countries and are not U.S. citizens, permanent residents, green card holders, refugees or asylum seekers. Nationals of these five countries had to register by Dec. 16 if they had been in the country since Sept. 10: Iran Iraq Libya Sudan Syria Registration was also required by Jan. 10, 2003 for people who entered the United States before Oct. 1 of this year if they came from another 13 countries: Afghanistan Algeria Bahrain Eritrea Lebanon Morocco North Korea Oman Qatar Somalia Tunisia United Arab Emirates Yemen
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Shog9 Atheists are boring. They only talk about god. - peterchen, “Atheists are idiots”
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These were people living and working there LEGALLY - thats the point X| The tigress is here :D
Trollslayer wrote: These were people living and working there LEGALLY Actually, no. Read my reply to Jason below.
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Shog9 Atheists are boring. They only talk about god. - peterchen, “Atheists are idiots”
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It's obscene! Why is this limited to Islamic visitors? Why not all of them? "INS spokesman Arcaute said those arrested had violated immigration laws, overstayed their visas, or were wanted for crimes" So are many thousands, perhaps millions of illegal immigrants from other countries - they all should be rounded up without delay! This is intolerable behavior by the INS. Just because Islamic folks don't have a strong lobby in Congress the INS thinks they can get away with this travesty. The truly infuriating part of it is that they're right - they can get away with it, and by doing so can make themselves appear to be a model of efficiency, to be rewarded with more budget and authority later. :mad: If we are to be a society of law, then the law must apply equally to all - selective enforcement is a travesty! Better anarchy than the arbitrary and capricious exercise of authority by governments... "How many times do I have to flush before you go away?" - Megan Forbes, on Management (12/5/2002)
Roger Wright wrote: It's obscene! Why is this limited to Islamic visitors? Why not all of them? I tend to agree. But taking a deep breath I remembered a month or so ago the "News" show 60 minutes had a piece about how almost the same thing happened to hundreds of Mexican illegally in Salt Lake City last year but, there was no outrage like this. So perhaps (I Hope) it is not the case of selective enforcement but rather the result of the INS's limited resources. I do think it is sad but, eventually we all pay for our mistakes. I just hope each of the people are judged and tried on their own merit rather than a blanket policy. Fill me with your knowledge, your wisdom, your coffee.
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Too little information is nearly as bad as flat-out incorrect information. Read the story as reported by CBS: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/12/19/attack/main533627.shtml[^] Also the FOX News description of some of the problems with the system: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,73281,00.html[^] And an article about the budget problems the INS is facing, which could be contributing to some of the delays in processing reported to have caused some of the detainees to become illegal: http://www.s-t.com/daily/12-02/12-18-02/a01lo007.htm[^] Finally, lest anyone think we're rounding up Muslim citizens, clarification on *who* needs to register (taken from the first link above):
REGISTRATION REQUIRED Federal law requires males over age 16 to register with the INS if they hail from certain countries and are not U.S. citizens, permanent residents, green card holders, refugees or asylum seekers. Nationals of these five countries had to register by Dec. 16 if they had been in the country since Sept. 10: Iran Iraq Libya Sudan Syria Registration was also required by Jan. 10, 2003 for people who entered the United States before Oct. 1 of this year if they came from another 13 countries: Afghanistan Algeria Bahrain Eritrea Lebanon Morocco North Korea Oman Qatar Somalia Tunisia United Arab Emirates Yemen
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Shog9 Atheists are boring. They only talk about god. - peterchen, “Atheists are idiots”
Perhaps I jumped the gun a little on this one. I agree that illegals should not be hear and should be arrested. It gives me a sick feeling in my stomach just reading about all of these people who may have come here for a better life but are being detained because of bureaucratic snafus. The illegitimates need to go though.
Jason Henderson
start page ; articles henderson is coming henderson is an opponent's worst nightmare * googlism * -
Perhaps I jumped the gun a little on this one. I agree that illegals should not be hear and should be arrested. It gives me a sick feeling in my stomach just reading about all of these people who may have come here for a better life but are being detained because of bureaucratic snafus. The illegitimates need to go though.
Jason Henderson
start page ; articles henderson is coming henderson is an opponent's worst nightmare * googlism *Jason Henderson wrote: It gives me a sick feeling in my stomach just reading about all of these people who may have come here for a better life but are being detained because of bureaucratic snafus. Well, there's a cause for you then. The INS is under-funded, under-staffed, over-worked, and has all the problems and inefficiencies you'd expect with a large bureacracy. And if that wasn't enough, they're being split up. Do a search for "immigrant" and "INS" on Google News & read some of the horror stories that pop up - there are problems aplenty.
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Shog9 Atheists are boring. They only talk about god. - peterchen, “Atheists are idiots”
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Fazlul Kabir wrote: I've no problem with that if that was applied to illegal immigrants of all national origins. We have to start somewhere don't we? There has been an increase in Islamic terrorism lately so Islamic countries get targeted first. If non-terrorist Islamics want to blame anyone, I suggest they start with their terrorist bretheren and the governments who support them. The US is trying to protect itself and it's "legal" citizens. Why is this a bad thing? Are they being "heavy handed"? Maybe. Would you rather we ignore the problem? Mike Mullikin :beer:
The goal of any programmer is to build something that will last at least until he's finished building it. - - Anonymous
Mike Mullikin wrote: We have to start somewhere don't we? IMHO, the problem of illegal immigration isn't a recent phenomenon.