Programming is not a long term career
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What do you have against JavaScript? I started with a bit of Basic, moved oder to C++, then Pascal, then JavaScript, then something more exotic (LotusScript), but at the same time Java and some more JavaScript, switched over to .Net, then Java, and am now back on C++. Of all of these, I'm the least productive in C++ (any language requiring manual mem mgmt reduces your speed by 50%), and I'm fastest with JavaScript. In fact, JavaScript is very nicely usable as a functional language, provided you know how to use it, and has a nicer and easier readable syntax than Lisp (but I still use it more like classical OO, I'm just abusing closures now and then). And yes, there's no other language (among the ones I enumerated) that lets you introduce bugs as easily, as long as you're sloppy - it has a very flexible syntax, and as such accepts even constructions you wouldn't expect it to grok, just not the way you'd want it to. And btw, I'm a bit over 41, and don't even think of moving over to management.
Florin Jurcovici wrote:
What do you have against JavaScript?
After working with Silverlight and C#... javascript just seems like an ancient half language. er script. Things like it not caring about variable typing, but silently accepting and failing if I set a hidden field using .Value instead of .value. Did you want that to work? Too bad. Javascript is my least favorite language to use. I rank it somewhere behind VB6.
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Albert Holguin wrote:
older programmers... you know, the ones that look like serial killers...
Hey I resemble that remark! :) Seriously I'm 46 and I have no aspirations to management so I guess I'm stuck as the greybeard programmer! My boss hates that the only thing I put on my IDP (Individual Development Plan) is Mo' Money!! :-D
The environment that nurtures creative programmers kills management and marketing types - and vice versa. - Orson Scott Card
Ha. Wait until you start putting "planning for retirement" on all your development plans.
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What do you have against JavaScript? I started with a bit of Basic, moved oder to C++, then Pascal, then JavaScript, then something more exotic (LotusScript), but at the same time Java and some more JavaScript, switched over to .Net, then Java, and am now back on C++. Of all of these, I'm the least productive in C++ (any language requiring manual mem mgmt reduces your speed by 50%), and I'm fastest with JavaScript. In fact, JavaScript is very nicely usable as a functional language, provided you know how to use it, and has a nicer and easier readable syntax than Lisp (but I still use it more like classical OO, I'm just abusing closures now and then). And yes, there's no other language (among the ones I enumerated) that lets you introduce bugs as easily, as long as you're sloppy - it has a very flexible syntax, and as such accepts even constructions you wouldn't expect it to grok, just not the way you'd want it to. And btw, I'm a bit over 41, and don't even think of moving over to management.
Florin Jurcovici wrote:
I'm the least productive in C++ (any language requiring manual mem mgmt reduces your speed by 50%)
This is what annoys me about most older people programming in c++. They want to do manual memory management. Its not C, its C++, use RAII. Futhermore, theres already plenty of smart pointer classes in the C++ standard library to take care of memory for you.
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Oakman wrote:
You're barely into middle age. I'm 68.
Depends on your point of view. I outraged a 27 year old coworker by telling her I entered middle age on my 25th birthday. My view? Life expectency is 75, youth= 0-25, middle age= 25-50, old age= 50-75, 75+= bonus time. Just because you are 10 years my senior, we are still both in old age. There is no rule you have to ACT old! I'm hoping to be fit enough to be tearing around corners on the back of a carriage when I'm 80+
KP Lee wrote:
There is no rule you have to ACT old!
Agreed. But you will find, especially during the years after 60, that your body does start to wear down. On my last checkup, my doctor told me that I couldn't expect to continue a life of wine, women and song forever - so I stopped singing.
The 3-legged stool of understanding is held up by history, languages, and mathematics. Equipped with these three you can learn anything you want to learn. But if you lack any one of them you are just another ignorant peasant with dung on your boots. R. A. H.
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To those of you who program for a living, look around. How many programmers do you see who are older than 30? Older than 35? Older than 40? It's my guess that, as you proceed through the increasing ages, you will find fewer and fewer hands-on programmers. So what's that mean to younger programmers, say, in their twenties? I believe that it means that programming is not a long term career path. As programmers become older, they fall prey to the niceties of management (carpets, big desk, a door that closes, etc.). And as a result, fewer and fewer programmers have gray hair. Maybe a lot of managers do but few programmers do. I'm a lucky one. I continue to program. And I'm old! But I think I bring a far ranging experience to the table. I am cautioning young programmers to beware. Although you may think it is, programming is not a long term career.
gggustafson wrote:
I believe that it means that programming is not a long term career path.
Aw, but it is, just not for everyone. To me, it's a perfect long-term career path; one is always learning :)
gggustafson wrote:
So what's that mean to younger programmers, say, in their twenties?
There's a lot more of them, then there was of us in our time; there weren't that much programmers to begin with. Our base grew with the introduction of Delphi, VB6 and Java, but it exploded once .NET and mobile apps came into view.
gggustafson wrote:
As programmers become older, they fall prey to the niceties of management (carpets, big desk, a door that closes, etc.).
A programmer is still that, whatever his/her role in the organization is.
gggustafson wrote:
I am cautioning young programmers to beware.
Caution is always a good thing :)
gggustafson wrote:
Although you may think it is, programming is not a long term career.
It's a good start; structured problem-solving, logic and patience come in handy in every trade. And yes, some stay long enough to grow a grey beard. But no, it's not a form of retirement, if that's what you mean ;P
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss:
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Robert Anson Heinlein, one of or perhaps simply the most popular, influential, and controversial authors of science fiction of the 20th Century. He wrote Stranger in a Strange Land, and the novels of the same name which were the basis for Starship Troopers and The Puppet Masters, along with around 30 other books. Some of his other quotes: One can judge from experiment, or one can blindly accept authority. To the scientific mind, experimental proof is all important and theory is merely a convenience in description, to be junked when it no longer fits. To the academic mind, authority is everything and facts are junked when they do not fit theory laid down by authority. TANSTAAFL (The acronym, not the words they stand for) A "critic" is a man who creates nothing and thereby feels qualified to judge the work of creative men. There is logic in this; he is unbiased — he hates all creative people equally. A generation which ignores history has no past — and no future. Always listen to experts. They'll tell you what can't be done, and why. Then do it. Being intelligent is not a felony. But most societies evaluate it as at least a misdemeanor.
The 3-legged stool of understanding is held up by history, languages, and mathematics. Equipped with these three you can learn anything you want to learn. But if you lack any one of them you are just another ignorant peasant with dung on your boots. R. A. H.
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I've been doing it since 1980, and actually being paid to do it since 1982. I imagine I'll be doing this until I'm 70 or so. My dad had been an electrician for about 60 years, and only recently had to quit wehen he had a stroke last September. Most programmers are mmoved into management positions between 35 and 40, and that's why you don't see that many old programmers. Me? I hate people, so management isn't exactly the right career path for me. For the most part, people leave me alone and let me write code, and I'm fine with that.
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
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You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
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"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote:
I hate people, so management isn't exactly the right career path for me.
I think you've misstated slightly here. You hate assholes, and part of management is dealing with assholes in a way that achieves the objective. I have a feeling your preferred mode for doing so doesn't accommodate all the options that most managers use (ass-kissing up the hierarchy, ass-wiping down). Brutal honesty and a straightforward expression of your opinion don't fit well in that environment. This isn't a criticism, btw. I have the same view toward management (and becoming a manager), and I like people. I've only had one coworker in my 30-year career that I genuinely despised.
Software Zen:
delete this; -
The reason you don't see 'old' programmers is because programming itself isn't really that old.
Everything makes sense in someone's mind
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Those were all him? Okay, now I feel like an idiot as I'm a SF fan and can quote several of both Asimov's and -- ironically -- Heinlien's books. Obviously, I need to reread my Heinlien.
Take a look at "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" if you don't know it - 'tis my personal favorite
The 3-legged stool of understanding is held up by history, languages, and mathematics. Equipped with these three you can learn anything you want to learn. But if you lack any one of them you are just another ignorant peasant with dung on your boots. R. A. H.
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To those of you who program for a living, look around. How many programmers do you see who are older than 30? Older than 35? Older than 40? It's my guess that, as you proceed through the increasing ages, you will find fewer and fewer hands-on programmers. So what's that mean to younger programmers, say, in their twenties? I believe that it means that programming is not a long term career path. As programmers become older, they fall prey to the niceties of management (carpets, big desk, a door that closes, etc.). And as a result, fewer and fewer programmers have gray hair. Maybe a lot of managers do but few programmers do. I'm a lucky one. I continue to program. And I'm old! But I think I bring a far ranging experience to the table. I am cautioning young programmers to beware. Although you may think it is, programming is not a long term career.
Programmer develops itself quickly as Director for other programmers
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To those of you who program for a living, look around. How many programmers do you see who are older than 30? Older than 35? Older than 40? It's my guess that, as you proceed through the increasing ages, you will find fewer and fewer hands-on programmers. So what's that mean to younger programmers, say, in their twenties? I believe that it means that programming is not a long term career path. As programmers become older, they fall prey to the niceties of management (carpets, big desk, a door that closes, etc.). And as a result, fewer and fewer programmers have gray hair. Maybe a lot of managers do but few programmers do. I'm a lucky one. I continue to program. And I'm old! But I think I bring a far ranging experience to the table. I am cautioning young programmers to beware. Although you may think it is, programming is not a long term career.
Didn't CodeProject do a survey on this subject some time ago? I seem to recall there were a significant number of members with careers in IT lasting over 30 years. I'm one of them (36 years) and I've never been out of work for more than a few weeks. And I still enjoy programming as much as when I started. That was back in the year that Bill Gates founded Microsoft (whatever happened to them?).
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No, young programmers are perceived to be cheaper by management with little or no experience in these matters. Experience can ONLY be gained with age (though age in itself does not prove that anything has been LEARNED from experience!) and, regardless of the programming language, toolset, application etc.. etc.. there are things that are learned from (sometimes bitter) experience that can make older developers very much more cost-effective (not cheaper by the hour) than new graduates or even developers in their thirties. What's more, age tends to weed out those who aren't really passionate about programming - they become managers, salespeople, admininstrators etc. Find someone in their 50s who's still programming after 20 or 30 years, and you'll find a highly experienced, adaptable, enthusiastic individual who can add a lot more to a development project than just lines of code. I've been writing code in six different decades now (and still I'm only 52 - started in 1969) and was progressing up the technical seniority path in various organisations until they tried to push me into management. I jumped ship, went freelance, and just write code for a living these days. This year I'm on target to earn 6 times what I earned as a programming team leader in a major multinational (taking inflation into account) and am having much more fun! It certainly CAN be long-term if you want it to be and have the skills and mindset to do it.
I totally agree with you. I'm 57 and have been programming since 1971. I've worked full-time and freelance and enjoy programming. There have been opportunities to move into management but I've resisted because I'd rather spend my time researching and coding solutions rather than sitting in meetings.
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Take a look at "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" if you don't know it - 'tis my personal favorite
The 3-legged stool of understanding is held up by history, languages, and mathematics. Equipped with these three you can learn anything you want to learn. But if you lack any one of them you are just another ignorant peasant with dung on your boots. R. A. H.
Try reading "The Rolling Stones". Then watch "The Trouble with Tribbles" episode of Star Trek. My dad handed me that book when I was about 10 and I fell in love with SF. I'm a 54 year old programmer who started programming in 1974. Only one husband.
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Try reading "The Rolling Stones". Then watch "The Trouble with Tribbles" episode of Star Trek. My dad handed me that book when I was about 10 and I fell in love with SF. I'm a 54 year old programmer who started programming in 1974. Only one husband.
shughes618 wrote:
Try reading "The Rolling Stones". Then watch "The Trouble with Tribbles" episode of Star Trek. My dad handed me that book when I was about 10 and I fell in love with SF.
'Twas one of the first Heinleins I ever read. And reread. And reread. Did you know that Hazel Stone from "Moon is a Harsh Mistress" is the grandmother in "Rolling Stones," appears briefly in "The Number of the Beast," and is the lead character in "The Cat Who Walks Through Walls?" Roddenberry actually paid R.A.H. $1,000 for a release because while Gerrold says he had no conscious intention of using the flatcats as models for the tribbles, the lawyers judged it was better to be safe than sorry.
The 3-legged stool of understanding is held up by history, languages, and mathematics. Equipped with these three you can learn anything you want to learn. But if you lack any one of them you are just another ignorant peasant with dung on your boots. R. A. H.
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shughes618 wrote:
Try reading "The Rolling Stones". Then watch "The Trouble with Tribbles" episode of Star Trek. My dad handed me that book when I was about 10 and I fell in love with SF.
'Twas one of the first Heinleins I ever read. And reread. And reread. Did you know that Hazel Stone from "Moon is a Harsh Mistress" is the grandmother in "Rolling Stones," appears briefly in "The Number of the Beast," and is the lead character in "The Cat Who Walks Through Walls?" Roddenberry actually paid R.A.H. $1,000 for a release because while Gerrold says he had no conscious intention of using the flatcats as models for the tribbles, the lawyers judged it was better to be safe than sorry.
The 3-legged stool of understanding is held up by history, languages, and mathematics. Equipped with these three you can learn anything you want to learn. But if you lack any one of them you are just another ignorant peasant with dung on your boots. R. A. H.
I didn't remember the details, but I did know that by the time he got to "The Number of the Beast" and "The Cat Who Walks Through Walls", he was tying together the characters from almost every book he ever wrote. It helps if you can pull from 6 to the 6th to the 6th power of universes. I haven't read any of Heinlein in a very long time. I think I'll re-read some of them.
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I didn't remember the details, but I did know that by the time he got to "The Number of the Beast" and "The Cat Who Walks Through Walls", he was tying together the characters from almost every book he ever wrote. It helps if you can pull from 6 to the 6th to the 6th power of universes. I haven't read any of Heinlein in a very long time. I think I'll re-read some of them.
shughes618 wrote:
I didn't remember the details, but I did know that by the time he got to "The Number of the Beast" and "The Cat Who Walks Through Walls",
Spider Robinson said that "the 'party scene' (In tNoB) was Heinlein's text farewell to the characters, books, writers, fans, and friends he loved; it was his love-letter to the people he'd worked with, and for, for over half a century, and he did it on purpose while his skills and health still allowed him to do it as well as he wanted to. You can find a concordance to that book here[^]
The 3-legged stool of understanding is held up by history, languages, and mathematics. Equipped with these three you can learn anything you want to learn. But if you lack any one of them you are just another ignorant peasant with dung on your boots. R. A. H.
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I think it depends where you are, when I worked at an AFB there were a lot of older programmers... you know, the ones that look like serial killers... ;P :laugh:
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Those were all him? Okay, now I feel like an idiot as I'm a SF fan and can quote several of both Asimov's and -- ironically -- Heinlien's books. Obviously, I need to reread my Heinlien.
Go find "Time Enough For Love". You'll find all these and more in the interludes, but they are attributed to Lazarus Long (aka Woodrow Wilson Smith). Definitely worth reading (over and over again)!
Jack Myers