How much knowing math well helps programmer?!
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In any other business (except perhaps law!) doing two minutes work and charging for 15 minutes would be classed as fraud.
A lawyer charges 15 minutes for the paperwork recording the fifteen minutes billed for the 2 minutes effort they got the secretary to do for them. :-D
Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done. Drink. Get drunk. Fall over - P O'H OK, I will win to day or my name isn't Ethel Crudacre! - DD Ethel Crudacre I cannot live by bread alone. Bacon and ketchup are needed as well. - Trollslayer Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb - they're often *students*, for heaven's sake - Terry Pratchett
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Much as I admire your attempt to teach them the correct spelling of MATHS, I feel I must pull you up on this line...
Nagy Vilmos wrote:
An understanding of how things work under the hood helps when implementing.
Bonnet, surely? Just sayin'
------------------------------------ I will never again mention that I was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel. Dalek Dave CCC Link[^] Trolls[^]
Touché M. Pussy-Cat
Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done. Drink. Get drunk. Fall over - P O'H OK, I will win to day or my name isn't Ethel Crudacre! - DD Ethel Crudacre I cannot live by bread alone. Bacon and ketchup are needed as well. - Trollslayer Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb - they're often *students*, for heaven's sake - Terry Pratchett
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Logic is vital in all areas of programming, you cannot do it without. What you are calling logic or logical thinking, problem solving, is just more maths. Maths is not just numbers and equations.
Every man can tell how many goats or sheep he possesses, but not how many friends.
ChrisElston wrote:
Logic is vital in all areas of programming, you cannot do it without.
Are you just arguing with me for the sake of it? This is the second response where you are claiming I have said something that was not in my message. Why don't you read in again (or properly for the first time)... I said, "good logic skills is a big help for programming". This does not say it is required, this does not say you can program with zero logic. This means, better logic skills are of benefit.
ChrisElston wrote:
Logic is vital in all areas of programming, you cannot do it without.
If you learn to apply techniques you don't need to have logic. You get set requirements, you fulfil them with things you have read (other people's logic) and I would say (with my own logic) that there are programmers out that who get by like this just fine. Learn the theory, apply the theory. However, my opinion is a programmer will be better with good logic skills. Now, feel free to discard everything I just said, and comment on completely made up sentences as they form in your head
My opinions are right, and yours are wrong! (or at least that is my opinion)
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ChrisElston wrote:
Logic is vital in all areas of programming, you cannot do it without.
Are you just arguing with me for the sake of it? This is the second response where you are claiming I have said something that was not in my message. Why don't you read in again (or properly for the first time)... I said, "good logic skills is a big help for programming". This does not say it is required, this does not say you can program with zero logic. This means, better logic skills are of benefit.
ChrisElston wrote:
Logic is vital in all areas of programming, you cannot do it without.
If you learn to apply techniques you don't need to have logic. You get set requirements, you fulfil them with things you have read (other people's logic) and I would say (with my own logic) that there are programmers out that who get by like this just fine. Learn the theory, apply the theory. However, my opinion is a programmer will be better with good logic skills. Now, feel free to discard everything I just said, and comment on completely made up sentences as they form in your head
My opinions are right, and yours are wrong! (or at least that is my opinion)
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In my opinion programing is maths. And maths is an art.
Every man can tell how many goats or sheep he possesses, but not how many friends.
ChrisElston wrote:
In my opinion programing is maths.
Other than basic math, if that, how much of your programming involves math(s)? Just curious. :)
----------------------------- Just along for the ride. -----------------------------
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ChrisElston wrote:
In my opinion programing is maths.
Other than basic math, if that, how much of your programming involves math(s)? Just curious. :)
----------------------------- Just along for the ride. -----------------------------
I think that all of it is. You have something, it has a value, what happens depends on what that value is in relation to some other value or values. I think that is maths.
Every man can tell how many goats or sheep he possesses, but not how many friends.
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You said that knowing maths was not required. Knowing maths most definitely is. Even if it just logic.
Every man can tell how many goats or sheep he possesses, but not how many friends.
In that statement, I indeed was thinking of maths as being the number crunching, algorithm aspect of it. Which was what I interpreted from the OP. But your reasoning of it meaning an all encompassing maths makes it a pointless topic
My opinions are right, and yours are wrong! (or at least that is my opinion)
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Without understanding maths you can not understand how to apply logic and entire programing is based on logic. rahul
most probably fuzzy logic! :rolleyes:
Watched code never compiles.
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But what is Art?
A little piece of SA 80's music: Niki Daly - Is it an Ism or is it Art[^] Maholy-Nagy, Maholy-Nagy I love his ism, but is it art? Tell me my Bauhaus baby Is it art? Is it an ism or is it an art? Marinetti, Filippo Marinetti I love your ism, but is it art? Futurisms so dynamic But it is art? René Magritte, Mr René Magritte I love your ism, but is it art? I’ll eat your black bowler hat If that is art Is it an ism or is it an art? Oskar Kokoschka, Oh Oskar Kokoschka I love your ism, but is it art? I’m chilled by the cold blue black of your nights But is it art? Neoplasticism, Automaticism, Televisionism Uh oh, Uh oh Is it art? Post Picasso-ism, hyper-realism, real hyperism Oh oh, oh Is it art? Keep looking for a sign For our own time There really isn’t any ism That I can call mine I know what I like But I don’t know if it’s art I really don’t know My ism from my art Is it an ism or is it an art? Oh Mr Mondrian, Mr Piet Mondrian I love your ism, but is it art? Your Boogie-Woogie-Woogie’s Jazzy But is it art? I know what I like But I don’t know if it’s art I really don’t know My ism from my art Oh, Is it an ism or is it art Salvador Dalí, I adore Dalí I love his ism, but is it art? It’s metaphysically superb But is it art Romanticism, minimalism, Disillusionism Oh oh, oh oh Is it art Supreme-tism, exoticism, simultanousism Oh oh, is it art? Keep looking for a sign For our own time There really isn’t any ism That I can call mine I know what I like But I don’t know if it’s art I really don’t know My ism from my art Is it an ism or is it art?
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Recently I had a fun discussion with my colleague(he works on algorithms) on this topic, thought you guys would give some insight.
If you program anything beyond a business application you will find the knowledge of math essential to your success. However, in the business domain it is actually a detriment. Management doesn't want the technically correct answer they want the answer everyone else is getting (check out mortgage calculators online)
Need custom software developed? I do custom programming based primarily on MS tools with an emphasis on C# development and consulting. I also do Android Programming as I find it a refreshing break from the MS. "And they, since they Were not the one dead, turned to their affairs" -- Robert Frost
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I think that all of it is. You have something, it has a value, what happens depends on what that value is in relation to some other value or values. I think that is maths.
Every man can tell how many goats or sheep he possesses, but not how many friends.
Fair enough.
ChrisElston wrote:
You have something, it has a value, what happens depends on what that value is in relation to some other value or values.
I don't really think of that as math, even though it technically is. My reason, it's second nature to us. I think of math as complex equations and/or mathematical algorithms. To me that is math in programming.
----------------------------- Just along for the ride. -----------------------------
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In that statement, I indeed was thinking of maths as being the number crunching, algorithm aspect of it. Which was what I interpreted from the OP. But your reasoning of it meaning an all encompassing maths makes it a pointless topic
My opinions are right, and yours are wrong! (or at least that is my opinion)
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Fair enough.
ChrisElston wrote:
You have something, it has a value, what happens depends on what that value is in relation to some other value or values.
I don't really think of that as math, even though it technically is. My reason, it's second nature to us. I think of math as complex equations and/or mathematical algorithms. To me that is math in programming.
----------------------------- Just along for the ride. -----------------------------
Most don't, which is essentially the argument I have been having further down with this. I see maths as being far more than what they teach as maths in schools. It is an innate understanding of certain things, a way of dealing with data. That was the reason for the maths is art comment I made. To be a good programmer, coder, whatever I think you need to have a mathematical streak in you, even if it is not something you understand or are aware of. That is why once you have learnt to code it doesn't matter what language you use, you can easily pick up another, because you have an understanding of or a feeling for the mathematical principles that underpin everything. Just my opinion, not expecting everyone to agree, but that is what I think.
Every man can tell how many goats or sheep he possesses, but not how many friends.
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Most don't, which is essentially the argument I have been having further down with this. I see maths as being far more than what they teach as maths in schools. It is an innate understanding of certain things, a way of dealing with data. That was the reason for the maths is art comment I made. To be a good programmer, coder, whatever I think you need to have a mathematical streak in you, even if it is not something you understand or are aware of. That is why once you have learnt to code it doesn't matter what language you use, you can easily pick up another, because you have an understanding of or a feeling for the mathematical principles that underpin everything. Just my opinion, not expecting everyone to agree, but that is what I think.
Every man can tell how many goats or sheep he possesses, but not how many friends.
ChrisElston wrote:
To be a good programmer, coder, whatever I think you need to have a mathematical streak in you, even if it is not something you understand or are aware of.
That is why once you have learnt to code it doesn't matter what language you use, you can easily pick up another, because you have an understanding of or a feeling for the mathematical principles that underpin everything.I read this twice. Very well said and I think you do in fact make a great point. :thumbsup:
----------------------------- Just along for the ride. -----------------------------
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Recently I had a fun discussion with my colleague(he works on algorithms) on this topic, thought you guys would give some insight.
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Much as I admire your attempt to teach them the correct spelling of MATHS, I feel I must pull you up on this line...
Nagy Vilmos wrote:
An understanding of how things work under the hood helps when implementing.
Bonnet, surely? Just sayin'
------------------------------------ I will never again mention that I was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel. Dalek Dave CCC Link[^] Trolls[^]
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Oh I see my problem. From now on you explain how I should interpret every topic and then I'll agree with you.
Every man can tell how many goats or sheep he possesses, but not how many friends.
Again, I said nothing like that. I just admitted that my interpretation was more limited than yours, and this is why I commented how I did. I don't want you to agree, I just want you to understand what I say before you argue your point
My opinions are right, and yours are wrong! (or at least that is my opinion)
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Again, I said nothing like that. I just admitted that my interpretation was more limited than yours, and this is why I commented how I did. I don't want you to agree, I just want you to understand what I say before you argue your point
My opinions are right, and yours are wrong! (or at least that is my opinion)
You said that my interpretation made the whole thing pointless. So for my contributions to not be pointless I need to understand which interpretations you find acceptable. If I am to interpret everything the same was then what is left but to say "I agree" and move on to the next one?
Every man can tell how many goats or sheep he possesses, but not how many friends.
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But what is Art?
The hardest part of art is making it not look like art. Translation and application to this topic: development is an art. When done properly the end result is simple and understandable, maybe even cold. But if you looked at the route to get there, you would understand it as an art.
"I have a theory that the truth is never told during the nine-to-five hours. " — Hunter S. Thompson
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A good solid understanding of maths - it's shortened from mathematics not mathematic - is a must in anything by the most trivial application. [example: How do you determine a hash code and how will you know if it's good?] You need a good knowledge of logic. Is the decision point in your if statement correct? An understanding of how things work under the hood helps when implementing. A true example, we had to sort a list on the fly as it came in, probably 80-100 items through per minute and it needed to refresh the display. Easy yes? The sort algorythym moved about the values rather than the references and it was pants, a quick index in the middle and sorting was reduced to negligible. Only sorting when refreshing the display was another cheap improvement.
Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done. Drink. Get drunk. Fall over - P O'H OK, I will win to day or my name isn't Ethel Crudacre! - DD Ethel Crudacre I cannot live by bread alone. Bacon and ketchup are needed as well. - Trollslayer Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb - they're often *students*, for heaven's sake - Terry Pratchett
