The continuing saga of bad code [modified]
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They want me to fix the issues this thing has, I told them I will fix the issues by scrapping the damn thing and rebuilding from ground up....It's such a Frankenstein monster that I am loath to simply do yet more patching and duct taping on it. Its basically the company intranet application, built by a self taught programmer over about 4 years time(constantly adding and patching stuff in). So its horrendous. I'm going to go with the basic user design and whatnot but am going to redesign the whole damn thing from the ground up with all its current functionality taken into account from the start, rather than patch in more crap code.(instead it will be a whole new generation of crap code, but it will be crap code that I wrote so I will know how to use it..... :-D ).
Programming is a race between programmers trying to build bigger and better idiot proof programs, and the universe trying to build bigger and better idiots, so far... the universe is winning. Be careful which toes you step on today, they might be connected to the foot that kicks your butt tomorrow. You can't scare me, I have children.
I'm in pretty much the same situation, but most of the site Internet rather than intranet. I can understand this happening where I am, developers aren't seen as being professionals here, the equivalent of digital labourers. Most of the good devs end up in the gulf where they pay properly, which just makes the problem worse.
Sort of a cross between Lawrence of Arabia and Dilbert.[^]
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A Dead ringer for Kate Winslett[^] -
OK, so I've gotten past the no source control and no dev database. Now to build the site and step through it...no so fast. VS reports so many errors it stops recording them. When asked, the response was, "We've never built the site". :wtf: How do you use it then? "We deploy it and let it compile on the server when someone hits it the first time". :wtf: Did I mention the huge monolithic classes, 400 lines in one page load event alone, no layers, hard coded business logic. Not to get into the religious debate about languages but everytime I run into VB projects this is the quality I find. Software development would be so much better if Microsoft would just discontinue VB. :-D
I know the language. I've read a book. - _Madmatt
modified on Wednesday, July 20, 2011 8:49 AM
Gah! I'd still be stuck on the "no dev database" issue. Even when we were a VB shop we had test databases. Of course, some of the applications had very large methods for things. Reminded me of some of the COBOL programs my mates from college wrote for class... *shudder* Flynn
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Mark Nischalke wrote:
Didn't realize CP was affiliated with News Corp
:laugh:
Regards, Nish
Are you addicted to CP? If so, check this out: The Code Project Forum Analyzer : Find out how much of a life you don't have! My technology blog: voidnish.wordpress.com
Better News Corp, than News International ;)
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Mark Nischalke wrote:
Not to get into the religious debate about languages but everytime I run into VB projects this is the quality I find. Software development would be so much better if Microsoft would just discontinue VB.
If MS did away with VB those coders would code crap in C#, and then you would have no warning that it was going to be poorly written code. The way it is now, if you're called in on a VB project you can be fairly certain you are going to see horrors beyond comprehension. With C# you can expect it to be decent. There are exceptions in both languages of course, but by there definition exceptions are rare...
I disagree - I've got that crap in C# code..
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OK, so I've gotten past the no source control and no dev database. Now to build the site and step through it...no so fast. VS reports so many errors it stops recording them. When asked, the response was, "We've never built the site". :wtf: How do you use it then? "We deploy it and let it compile on the server when someone hits it the first time". :wtf: Did I mention the huge monolithic classes, 400 lines in one page load event alone, no layers, hard coded business logic. Not to get into the religious debate about languages but everytime I run into VB projects this is the quality I find. Software development would be so much better if Microsoft would just discontinue VB. :-D
I know the language. I've read a book. - _Madmatt
modified on Wednesday, July 20, 2011 8:49 AM
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Just come over to the dark side, Chris. It won't hurt a bit. I promise.
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
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You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
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"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote:
It won't hurt a bit. I promise.
Said the proctologist to the patient. :laugh:
Software Zen:
delete this; -
OK, so I've gotten past the no source control and no dev database. Now to build the site and step through it...no so fast. VS reports so many errors it stops recording them. When asked, the response was, "We've never built the site". :wtf: How do you use it then? "We deploy it and let it compile on the server when someone hits it the first time". :wtf: Did I mention the huge monolithic classes, 400 lines in one page load event alone, no layers, hard coded business logic. Not to get into the religious debate about languages but everytime I run into VB projects this is the quality I find. Software development would be so much better if Microsoft would just discontinue VB. :-D
I know the language. I've read a book. - _Madmatt
modified on Wednesday, July 20, 2011 8:49 AM
It's not the language - it's the caliber of developer. I've seen some C# and C++ projects that would rival if not surpass the code you've described for it's shameless depths of bad practices/code/formatting/architecture/etc. I've also seen some very good work done in VB (not to try to say that I haven't seen some comparably bad VB - but I haven't noticed an inordinate disparity in the amount of bad code I encounter as related to the programming language).
Kevin Rucker, Application Programmer QSS Group, Inc. United States Coast Guard OSC Kevin.D.Rucker@uscg.mil "Programming is an art form that fights back." -- Chad Hower
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I disagree - I've got that crap in C# code..
boarderstu wrote:
I disagree - I've got that crap in C# code..
Right, the exception that proves the rule. <- how is that even a saying, it really doesn't make sense if you think about it so I'm going to stop thinking about it.
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boarderstu wrote:
I disagree - I've got that crap in C# code..
Right, the exception that proves the rule. <- how is that even a saying, it really doesn't make sense if you think about it so I'm going to stop thinking about it.
Jeremy Hutchinson wrote:
Right, the exception that proves the rule. <- how is that even a saying, it really doesn't make sense if you think about it so I'm going to stop thinking about it.
"The exception proves the rule" means that if an exception to a rule is specified, it proves the existence of a rule to be excepted from. In a simple example, if a sign were to read "No parking from 7am to 5pm", then that exception proves the rule that parking is allowed at other times. It's used in court cases to help establish right and wrong when the rules aren't necessarily clear. When you say "the exception proves the rule" when simply referring to a counter-example, then you're misusing the phrase.
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OK, so I've gotten past the no source control and no dev database. Now to build the site and step through it...no so fast. VS reports so many errors it stops recording them. When asked, the response was, "We've never built the site". :wtf: How do you use it then? "We deploy it and let it compile on the server when someone hits it the first time". :wtf: Did I mention the huge monolithic classes, 400 lines in one page load event alone, no layers, hard coded business logic. Not to get into the religious debate about languages but everytime I run into VB projects this is the quality I find. Software development would be so much better if Microsoft would just discontinue VB. :-D
I know the language. I've read a book. - _Madmatt
modified on Wednesday, July 20, 2011 8:49 AM
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Mark Nischalke wrote:
Not to get into the religious debate about languages but everytime I run into VB projects this is the quality I find. Software development would be so much better if Microsoft would just discontinue VB.
If MS did away with VB those coders would code crap in C#, and then you would have no warning that it was going to be poorly written code. The way it is now, if you're called in on a VB project you can be fairly certain you are going to see horrors beyond comprehension. With C# you can expect it to be decent. There are exceptions in both languages of course, but by there definition exceptions are rare...
I think I generally agree. At the job I just left, I finally convinced my supervisor that we should migrate to C# from VB. (Oddly enough, only a couple of months before we both left, but there were other circumstances around that.) Anyway, in that discussion, I pointed out to him that for purposes of recruiting future talent, it is wrong to say that a particular C# developer is necessarily better than a particular VB developer. Either the developer has skill and is thorough and hs some brains or not, and good ones will be able to produce solid applications regardless of the language. However, in a general sense, I pointed out that C# developers tend to be more analytical and technically-oriented, and thus make better developers from a reliability standpoint. I tried to make a graphic representation of my idea with my hands: |----------- | C# developers | ------------| | | }----------- | VB developers | ------------| The point being that some VB developers are better than some C# developers (there are idiots everywhere), but in a general sense, using C# will attract better candidates. Of course, due to organizational bumbling, neither of us care any longer what they do, but that's another story.
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Mark Nischalke wrote:
Not to get into the religious debate about languages but everytime I run into VB projects this is the quality I find. Software development would be so much better if Microsoft would just discontinue VB.
If MS did away with VB those coders would code crap in C#, and then you would have no warning that it was going to be poorly written code. The way it is now, if you're called in on a VB project you can be fairly certain you are going to see horrors beyond comprehension. With C# you can expect it to be decent. There are exceptions in both languages of course, but by there definition exceptions are rare...
The language is irrelevant, whenever I've started someplace new there has always been a good supply of WTF in the source base whether it is perl, c, pascal, C#, VB, COBOL, x86 asm, Java, c++, etc, etc. First you have to decipher the mind set of those that came before, then all becomes clear. Long walks muttering to yourself also help. :)
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John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote:
It won't hurt a bit. I promise.
Said the proctologist to the patient. :laugh:
Software Zen:
delete this; -
Jeremy Hutchinson wrote:
Right, the exception that proves the rule. <- how is that even a saying, it really doesn't make sense if you think about it so I'm going to stop thinking about it.
"The exception proves the rule" means that if an exception to a rule is specified, it proves the existence of a rule to be excepted from. In a simple example, if a sign were to read "No parking from 7am to 5pm", then that exception proves the rule that parking is allowed at other times. It's used in court cases to help establish right and wrong when the rules aren't necessarily clear. When you say "the exception proves the rule" when simply referring to a counter-example, then you're misusing the phrase.
Never forget: There's ALWAYS an exception to prove a rule. You might have to dig or fabricate it, but there will always be one. Accept this, and you will be on the fast track to management / politics!
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I disagree - I've got that crap in C# code..
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OK, so I've gotten past the no source control and no dev database. Now to build the site and step through it...no so fast. VS reports so many errors it stops recording them. When asked, the response was, "We've never built the site". :wtf: How do you use it then? "We deploy it and let it compile on the server when someone hits it the first time". :wtf: Did I mention the huge monolithic classes, 400 lines in one page load event alone, no layers, hard coded business logic. Not to get into the religious debate about languages but everytime I run into VB projects this is the quality I find. Software development would be so much better if Microsoft would just discontinue VB. :-D
I know the language. I've read a book. - _Madmatt
modified on Wednesday, July 20, 2011 8:49 AM
And, which of the problems you detailed cannot be done in C#? You are blaming the tool? Because the craftsmen doen't know how to use it? Some of the C# programmers in my company have an aversion to using comments and error trapping/reporting. When I inherited a project from one C# programmer, I added comments and error trapping to all the procedures. Then I received an e-mail from the C# developer ridiculing me for modifying his code. He told me all that was unnecessary because the code worked.
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Mark Nischalke wrote:
Not to get into the religious debate about languages but everytime I run into VB projects this is the quality I find. Software development would be so much better if Microsoft would just discontinue VB.
If MS did away with VB those coders would code crap in C#, and then you would have no warning that it was going to be poorly written code. The way it is now, if you're called in on a VB project you can be fairly certain you are going to see horrors beyond comprehension. With C# you can expect it to be decent. There are exceptions in both languages of course, but by there definition exceptions are rare...
I have seen a ton of crap C# code as well. In fact the job I ran into at the last place was exactly like above. Code files pushed to server and then see if it ran as a test. No compile in VS. Sometimes a command line compile. They all used Notepad as their code editor and then copied and hoped it worked. It was all C#. Took me a month and a half to get it into VS and compile. First run thru on compile died and killed my machine. It was horrible. So yeah there is crap VB but there is Crap C#, Crap C++ and Crap PHP etc... VB is alittle more forgiving so there can be a wider range of crap. But in any of them you can do crap. Biggest difference I see is that in c++ you can actually kill yourself with Crap.
To err is human to really mess up you need a computer
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OK, so I've gotten past the no source control and no dev database. Now to build the site and step through it...no so fast. VS reports so many errors it stops recording them. When asked, the response was, "We've never built the site". :wtf: How do you use it then? "We deploy it and let it compile on the server when someone hits it the first time". :wtf: Did I mention the huge monolithic classes, 400 lines in one page load event alone, no layers, hard coded business logic. Not to get into the religious debate about languages but everytime I run into VB projects this is the quality I find. Software development would be so much better if Microsoft would just discontinue VB. :-D
I know the language. I've read a book. - _Madmatt
modified on Wednesday, July 20, 2011 8:49 AM
Blaming VB for bad code is like blaming English for someone speaking it badly. Both languages have their horrors and triumphs.
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Blaming VB for bad code is like blaming English for someone speaking it badly. Both languages have their horrors and triumphs.
You are the one assigning blame not me. I merely made an observation based on my own emperical evidence. Results may differ.
I know the language. I've read a book. - _Madmatt
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And, which of the problems you detailed cannot be done in C#? You are blaming the tool? Because the craftsmen doen't know how to use it? Some of the C# programmers in my company have an aversion to using comments and error trapping/reporting. When I inherited a project from one C# programmer, I added comments and error trapping to all the procedures. Then I received an e-mail from the C# developer ridiculing me for modifying his code. He told me all that was unnecessary because the code worked.
You are the one assigning blame. I'm merely stating an opinion based on my own empirical evidence. Idiocy has no bounds in language or culture.
I know the language. I've read a book. - _Madmatt