As we move inexorably towards the 10th anniversary
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Firstly, Very few people today could say what the 5th of November was all about. There was never any danger of the plot succeeding, it was well known about, they just wanted to catch them red-handed. The reason for the bonfires and fireworks is not in celebration of the defeat of the plan, but a political exercise aimed at demoralising England's catholics. It was made law that Guy Fawkes was to be burnt in effigy so to act as a reminder to the catholics that they were never to attempt to undermine the British Crown. Second, read a fucking book. The 11th of November has got precisely fuck all to do with WW2. Although, strangely, it has everything to do with WW1, what with WW1 ending on the 11th of November.
------------------------------------ I will never again mention that I was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel. Dalek Dave CCC Link[^] Trolls[^]
Dalek Dave wrote:
Firstly, Very few people today could say what the 5th of November was all about.
Burning Catholics isnt it? :)
Dalek Dave wrote:
Second, read a f***ing book.
The 11th of November has got precisely f*** all to do with WW2.Tut tut Dave, swearing in the lounge. No need to take offense because the fallacy of your post was pointed out to you. BTW, you well know poppy day is about remembering all fallen soldiers, not just those in WW1, so don't attempt to cover up your fallacy with a thin vaneer of truth.
============================== Nothing to say.
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Dalek Dave wrote:
Firstly, Very few people today could say what the 5th of November was all about.
Burning Catholics isnt it? :)
Dalek Dave wrote:
Second, read a f***ing book.
The 11th of November has got precisely f*** all to do with WW2.Tut tut Dave, swearing in the lounge. No need to take offense because the fallacy of your post was pointed out to you. BTW, you well know poppy day is about remembering all fallen soldiers, not just those in WW1, so don't attempt to cover up your fallacy with a thin vaneer of truth.
============================== Nothing to say.
WTF is poppy day? The term is Armistice Day, and whilst it is a time for remembering all those who have fallen, it was first created for WW1. My point is that we don't spend the day reciting the names of everyone who died in the war, we don't show teary-eyed widows and orphans, we don't have the suitably somber music overlaying the serious looking news reporter as black and white 'arty' images are presented to us of them as died. There is a time to move on, I think the 10th anniversary is it.
------------------------------------ I will never again mention that I was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel. Dalek Dave CCC Link[^] Trolls[^]
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Sad as it undoubtedly was, I feel that once this 10th anniversary is done with, the whole thing should be left to fall into the arms of history. The morbid fascination and national hand-wringing is capitalised upon by media outlets, each vying to be more sombre and socially aware than the next. We do not mourn for the millions who died in WW2 in such a way, and I feel that the 10th year since it happened should be sufficient time for a nation to reflect on the matter, then move on. One cannot mourn forever, it is unhealthy. Let the dead rest, let the living move on.
------------------------------------ I will never again mention that I was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel. Dalek Dave CCC Link[^] Trolls[^]
My 5. I am totally with you on that point. I think that "morbid fascination and national hand-wringing" for those who gave their lives for the nation ( intentionally or not ) is very present in the US culture. I think most of us here in Europe would agree to find this slightly overdone, to say the least. (Don't get me wrong, I mean no offense here, just picking up something I noticed)
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Firstly, Very few people today could say what the 5th of November was all about. There was never any danger of the plot succeeding, it was well known about, they just wanted to catch them red-handed. The reason for the bonfires and fireworks is not in celebration of the defeat of the plan, but a political exercise aimed at demoralising England's catholics. It was made law that Guy Fawkes was to be burnt in effigy so to act as a reminder to the catholics that they were never to attempt to undermine the British Crown. Second, read a fucking book. The 11th of November has got precisely fuck all to do with WW2. Although, strangely, it has everything to do with WW1, what with WW1 ending on the 11th of November.
------------------------------------ I will never again mention that I was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel. Dalek Dave CCC Link[^] Trolls[^]
I personally like the take on the message of november 5th portrayed in the film 'V for Vendetta' A reminder that people should not be afraid of their governments, that governments should, instead, be afraid of their people. but, then again, burning catholics is always fun....
Pedis ex oris
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Sad as it undoubtedly was, I feel that once this 10th anniversary is done with, the whole thing should be left to fall into the arms of history. The morbid fascination and national hand-wringing is capitalised upon by media outlets, each vying to be more sombre and socially aware than the next. We do not mourn for the millions who died in WW2 in such a way, and I feel that the 10th year since it happened should be sufficient time for a nation to reflect on the matter, then move on. One cannot mourn forever, it is unhealthy. Let the dead rest, let the living move on.
------------------------------------ I will never again mention that I was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel. Dalek Dave CCC Link[^] Trolls[^]
I agree. It wasn't some massive moment of history like a world war where you can make the argument that we need to remember so we don't do it again (though I think we should can 'Remembrance' once there aren't actually people around who can remember WW1, as well) – it was a terrorist attack, notable only by the scale and the luck involved (I don't believe for a moment they knew the towers would collapse like that). Having a huge global memorial every year for 3000 Americans (mostly) and nothing for the many, many more civilians killed by our own countries in Afghanistan and Iraq gives entirely the wrong impression, too. But it's cheap political capital for those at the top and reminding people of it constantly gives them an excuse to push back against civil rights in the name of 'counter-terrorism', so I guess we will have to face another 10 years of anniversaries.
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I personally like the take on the message of november 5th portrayed in the film 'V for Vendetta' A reminder that people should not be afraid of their governments, that governments should, instead, be afraid of their people. but, then again, burning catholics is always fun....
Pedis ex oris
The only enemy is the government. To quote Madame Whiteadder "Cold is God's way of telling us to burn more Catholics"
------------------------------------ I will never again mention that I was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel. Dalek Dave CCC Link[^] Trolls[^]
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Dalek Dave wrote:
Firstly, Very few people today could say what the 5th of November was all about.
Burning Catholics isnt it? :)
Dalek Dave wrote:
Second, read a f***ing book.
The 11th of November has got precisely f*** all to do with WW2.Tut tut Dave, swearing in the lounge. No need to take offense because the fallacy of your post was pointed out to you. BTW, you well know poppy day is about remembering all fallen soldiers, not just those in WW1, so don't attempt to cover up your fallacy with a thin vaneer of truth.
============================== Nothing to say.
Fat__Eric wrote:
Dalek Dave wrote:
Firstly, Very few people today could say what the 5th of November was all
about.Burning Catholics isnt it? :)
Maxwell falling off his boat. A happy day indeed.
Every man can tell how many goats or sheep he possesses, but not how many friends.
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Yes, but it is a 40 minute coverage on a Sunday Morning, not a 2 week trudge of sadness and reflection. There are programmes listed entitled "America Remembers", well I should hope so, it was only 10 years ago. I bet they don't remember the Port Chicago explosion of 1944, nearly 400 dead and more injured.
------------------------------------ I will never again mention that I was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel. Dalek Dave CCC Link[^] Trolls[^]
It's a bit more than that. I will drive out to Solymár for the Remembrance Service. That is then followed by a reception at the British Ambassador's residence. It is something I have done every year when I have been in Hungary for Remembrance Sunday. All the Commonwealth Nations, along with Poles and Americans, are represented and each Ambassador lays a wreath at the central memorial. It is a very moving service and almost every year there will be a relative of someone buried there. One year it was snowing and frakin cold, the bugler could barely get a note out and standing for two minutes was not accompanied by silence but by chattering teeth.
Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done. Drink. Get drunk. Fall over - P O'H OK, I will win to day or my name isn't Ethel Crudacre! - DD Ethel Crudacre I cannot live by bread alone. Bacon and ketchup are needed as well. - Trollslayer Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb - they're often *students*, for heaven's sake - Terry Pratchett
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My 5. I am totally with you on that point. I think that "morbid fascination and national hand-wringing" for those who gave their lives for the nation ( intentionally or not ) is very present in the US culture. I think most of us here in Europe would agree to find this slightly overdone, to say the least. (Don't get me wrong, I mean no offense here, just picking up something I noticed)
I think the cultural difference between europe and america makes americans, to us, seem over-dramatic in general. And perhaps, for us Brits, there is an element of the fact that terrorists have been blowing bits of our countries up for decades now so that it feels a little bit more 'everyday' than it does for the americans
Pedis ex oris
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The only enemy is the government. To quote Madame Whiteadder "Cold is God's way of telling us to burn more Catholics"
------------------------------------ I will never again mention that I was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel. Dalek Dave CCC Link[^] Trolls[^]
But I like Catholics. :sigh:
Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done. Drink. Get drunk. Fall over - P O'H OK, I will win to day or my name isn't Ethel Crudacre! - DD Ethel Crudacre I cannot live by bread alone. Bacon and ketchup are needed as well. - Trollslayer Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb - they're often *students*, for heaven's sake - Terry Pratchett
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Fat__Eric wrote:
Dalek Dave wrote:
Firstly, Very few people today could say what the 5th of November was all
about.Burning Catholics isnt it? :)
Maxwell falling off his boat. A happy day indeed.
Every man can tell how many goats or sheep he possesses, but not how many friends.
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But I like Catholics. :sigh:
Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done. Drink. Get drunk. Fall over - P O'H OK, I will win to day or my name isn't Ethel Crudacre! - DD Ethel Crudacre I cannot live by bread alone. Bacon and ketchup are needed as well. - Trollslayer Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb - they're often *students*, for heaven's sake - Terry Pratchett
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WTF is poppy day? The term is Armistice Day, and whilst it is a time for remembering all those who have fallen, it was first created for WW1. My point is that we don't spend the day reciting the names of everyone who died in the war, we don't show teary-eyed widows and orphans, we don't have the suitably somber music overlaying the serious looking news reporter as black and white 'arty' images are presented to us of them as died. There is a time to move on, I think the 10th anniversary is it.
------------------------------------ I will never again mention that I was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel. Dalek Dave CCC Link[^] Trolls[^]
Dalek Dave wrote:
WTF is poppy day?
What? You, UK citizen, and ex army, and you dont know what poppy day is? Lets see what google says:http://www.google.co.uk/#sclient=psy&hl=en&site=&source=hp&q=%22poppy+day%22&pbx=1&oq=%22poppy+day%22&aq=f&aqi=g5&aql=&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=1700l3510l0l3697l11l9l0l0l0l0l546l2043l0.1.1.3.0.1l6l0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=b52565719a354932&biw=1272&bih=631[^] Oh look, there it is, as broad as daylight. Trying to hide your fallacy with feined ignorance? Tut tu, won't work here Dave. :) Oh, and yes, probably 10 years after WW1 widows were crying, and names were read out. I am sure in 100 years sept 11th will be a small ceremony. Give it time Dave, give it time. The wound is stil raw, the flesh not yet closed over.
============================== Nothing to say.
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But I like Catholics. :sigh:
Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done. Drink. Get drunk. Fall over - P O'H OK, I will win to day or my name isn't Ethel Crudacre! - DD Ethel Crudacre I cannot live by bread alone. Bacon and ketchup are needed as well. - Trollslayer Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb - they're often *students*, for heaven's sake - Terry Pratchett
I have no problem with them, it was the politcal situation 400 years ago over which I have no control. And Blackadder is very funny.
------------------------------------ I will never again mention that I was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel. Dalek Dave CCC Link[^] Trolls[^]
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My 5. I am totally with you on that point. I think that "morbid fascination and national hand-wringing" for those who gave their lives for the nation ( intentionally or not ) is very present in the US culture. I think most of us here in Europe would agree to find this slightly overdone, to say the least. (Don't get me wrong, I mean no offense here, just picking up something I noticed)
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I have no problem with them, it was the politcal situation 400 years ago over which I have no control. And Blackadder is very funny.
------------------------------------ I will never again mention that I was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel. Dalek Dave CCC Link[^] Trolls[^]
The Ickles had temporary guilt about bonfire night when I explained it was remembering the killing of a Catholic who wanted to kill the King. But with hotdogs and sparkers, they soon got over any moral objections. :-D
Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done. Drink. Get drunk. Fall over - P O'H OK, I will win to day or my name isn't Ethel Crudacre! - DD Ethel Crudacre I cannot live by bread alone. Bacon and ketchup are needed as well. - Trollslayer Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb - they're often *students*, for heaven's sake - Terry Pratchett
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I agree. It wasn't some massive moment of history like a world war where you can make the argument that we need to remember so we don't do it again (though I think we should can 'Remembrance' once there aren't actually people around who can remember WW1, as well) – it was a terrorist attack, notable only by the scale and the luck involved (I don't believe for a moment they knew the towers would collapse like that). Having a huge global memorial every year for 3000 Americans (mostly) and nothing for the many, many more civilians killed by our own countries in Afghanistan and Iraq gives entirely the wrong impression, too. But it's cheap political capital for those at the top and reminding people of it constantly gives them an excuse to push back against civil rights in the name of 'counter-terrorism', so I guess we will have to face another 10 years of anniversaries.
BobJanova wrote:
(I don't believe for a moment they knew the towers would collapse like that).
No one thought they would collapse so readilly. I was shocked (ex structural engineer in steel buildings). Lots of planes have hit lots of buildings, never has one come aprt so easilly. When I read an inquest into the design I was not surprised though, it was shoddillly built.
============================== Nothing to say.
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Although you couldn't eat a whole one.
Every man can tell how many goats or sheep he possesses, but not how many friends.
I dunno, Mrs Wife is pretty tasty...
Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done. Drink. Get drunk. Fall over - P O'H OK, I will win to day or my name isn't Ethel Crudacre! - DD Ethel Crudacre I cannot live by bread alone. Bacon and ketchup are needed as well. - Trollslayer Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb - they're often *students*, for heaven's sake - Terry Pratchett
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I have no problem with them, it was the politcal situation 400 years ago over which I have no control. And Blackadder is very funny.
------------------------------------ I will never again mention that I was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel. Dalek Dave CCC Link[^] Trolls[^]
Dalek Dave wrote:
I have no problem with them
Given some of your comments in the Soapbox and your stated militant atheism, I seriously doubt that statement is accurate. :rolleyes:
Forgive your enemies - it messes with their heads
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Rage wrote:
I think most of us here in Europe would agree to find this slightly overdone, to say the least.
Except for scousers, who have it even worse.
Every man can tell how many goats or sheep he possesses, but not how many friends.
ChrisElston wrote:
Except for scousers, who have it even worse.
It's only the red half.
Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done. Drink. Get drunk. Fall over - P O'H OK, I will win to day or my name isn't Ethel Crudacre! - DD Ethel Crudacre I cannot live by bread alone. Bacon and ketchup are needed as well. - Trollslayer Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb - they're often *students*, for heaven's sake - Terry Pratchett