Saturday's Garage Sale
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Marc A. Brown wrote:
don't have a constitutional right to own
Actually we do. Property ownership is protected by the constitution.
If your actions inspire others to dream more, learn more, do more and become more, you are a leader." - John Quincy Adams
You must accept one of two basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe, or we are not alone in the universe. And either way, the implications are staggering” - Wernher von BraunThat's an interesting interpretation. Where, exactly, does the Constitution grant us the right to own whatever we want? Not trying to turn this into SB material, but it is an interesting debate so far. :)
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Thankyou Jon. Your example just stopped me from acting like an asshole.
============================== Nothing to say.
I don't think anyone can stop you from doing that.
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
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You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
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"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997 -
Speaking as someone who has to deal daily with the anger, frustration, and aggressive behavior displayed when people feel unempowered and threatened by situations beyond their control, you escalated the situation unnecessarily. You would have been better off offering to explain your views in a calm, reasonable manner. Instead, you've contributed to a situation where you now have two highly motivated people who will likely advocate for tighter gun control laws to anyone who would listen as a direct result of their personal experience with you. It seems more pragmatic to value your ideals above the short-term pleasure of machismo.
- F
I didn't escalate anything. They cam onto my property.
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
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You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
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"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997 -
Where do you live that you have to deal with that sort of stuff? Maybe I don't want to visit Texas now! I live in St. Louis which has very high crime when you look at the numbers and I don't feel unsafe. I don't need a gun either. I have never been robbed, but it could happen some day. If it does, I'll hand over my valuables and have a great story to tell later. Its just a wallet and phone. Maybe I'll start packing a gun when they ingrate it into a smart phone. Hogan
snorkie wrote:
Where do you live that you have to deal with that sort of stuff?
I don't have to deal with it, but I'm not naive enough to assume it won't ever happen to me. Look at the way people are acting ALL OVER THE WORLD, but especially here. Mobs attacking individuals, people stealing stupid crap (hair extensions, street light poles, air conditioning units, entire metal buildings), home invasions, etc, and that's just to name a few of the things. I live in a pretty nice neighborhood, but a gas station less than two miles from my house was robbed last weekend. ALL of my neighbors have had their houses broken into at least once in the last year. We had someone try at our house, and our dogs scared 'em off. I live just north of the drug cartel border. In my view, anyone that walks around here that ISN'T armed is crazy.
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
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You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
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"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997 -
John it is not you most people are worried about, the ease with which unbalanced idiots can get hold of weapons and the lethality of those weapons is the issue for most of us. That and the fact that hormone raddled teenagers can easily get hold of weapons is truly scary.
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity RAH
I'm not going to try and convince anyone that some folks really shouldn't have access to anything more deadly than a pad of post-it notes. I've always advocated safe/proper firearm use, but sometimes the crazies break into the armory, and then all bets are off.
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
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You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
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"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997 -
How did that make you feel?
Like a free American. How'd it make you feel?
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
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You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
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"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997 -
In preparation for our impending change of address, we had a garage sale on Saturday. After about an hour, we'd racked up quite a cash stash, so my wife suggested that based on the current social climate where people steal things like hair extensions, a pile of used bricks, and other such things, that I should put on a pistol for the remainder of the day. Unable to find any flaws in her logic, I concurred. About 45 minutes later, the cops showed up, and some lady (that had been at our garage sale about 40 minutes prior) was standing in the street pointing at me kind of frantically, and talking to the cop in the lead car (there were two squad cars). I was sitting in a lawn chair sippin' on a glass of ice-tea, and the cop comes up and starts a conversation: Him: You're scarin' the lady in the street. Me: How so? I'm not in my car. If she's nervous about being in the street I don't blame her - you should see the way people drive through here. My advice is that she get out of the street. Him: She's concerned about your gun. Have you been out in the street with it? Me: Nope. Him: Have you had it out of the holster? Me: Well, yeah. I had to make sure it was loaded. I did that inside the house, though. Him: Well, the lady's nervous. Me: As long as she doesn't come on my property and threaten mine or my wife's life, she has nothing to worry about. If someone else were to try something, she can rest assured that we exercise Texas gun control in our house. Him: What kind of gun control is that? Me: We hit what we're aiming at. He smiled, and the conversation turned to types of pistols, the pros/cons of open carry, and the sheeple that are scared that a gun in a holster might jump out on its own and start killing and maiming with abandon. We both had a good laugh, and guessed that the concerned citizen that reported "man with a gun" was probably a liberal on federal assistance. He left, with a promise to educate the lady concerning the law regarding open-carry on one's own property. Last we saw, the lady was getting quite animated and upset, and appeared to stomp back up the street in a huff. The cops left, and I was still in the lawn chair when this guy in a pcikup truck drove up. He got out, walked right up to me with a stern look on his face. Me: Mornin'! Wanna buy a big TV? Him: You think you're somethin' carrying that gun, don't ya. Me: Well, one thing I think is that I'm armed and you're an idiot. So much for the theory that "an armed society is a polite society".
You know, I find it interesting that sitting in one's yard is some sort of escalation. In any event, for those of you in denial about random violence here's an example for you: http://www.philly.com/philly/news/20110927_Chased_home__Mob_attacks_man_in_his_house.html?c=r[^] A "crowd" kicks in his door. He has 4 children in the house. One "citizen" has a gun. They are very lucky this man was not trained in the use and had at his disposal a firearm. If you knock on my door, need dinner, I will feed you. You kick my door in and threaten my family, you have forfeited any benefit of the doubt. Anyone want to bet the armed-perp is not licensed? As for the thought of handing over your valuables, you better get a reality check. 20 years ago, the police use to recommend this, then they noticed that the burglaries became more violent. The predators learned you've been taught not to resist. Same attitude and conditioning that let a handful of killers hijack 4 airliners.
Charlie Gilley You're going to tell me what I want to know, or I'm going to beat you to death in your own house. "Where liberty dwells, there is my country." B. Franklin, 1783 “They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” BF, 1759
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I didn't escalate anything. They cam onto my property.
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
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You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
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"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997 -
You know, I find it interesting that sitting in one's yard is some sort of escalation. In any event, for those of you in denial about random violence here's an example for you: http://www.philly.com/philly/news/20110927_Chased_home__Mob_attacks_man_in_his_house.html?c=r[^] A "crowd" kicks in his door. He has 4 children in the house. One "citizen" has a gun. They are very lucky this man was not trained in the use and had at his disposal a firearm. If you knock on my door, need dinner, I will feed you. You kick my door in and threaten my family, you have forfeited any benefit of the doubt. Anyone want to bet the armed-perp is not licensed? As for the thought of handing over your valuables, you better get a reality check. 20 years ago, the police use to recommend this, then they noticed that the burglaries became more violent. The predators learned you've been taught not to resist. Same attitude and conditioning that let a handful of killers hijack 4 airliners.
Charlie Gilley You're going to tell me what I want to know, or I'm going to beat you to death in your own house. "Where liberty dwells, there is my country." B. Franklin, 1783 “They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” BF, 1759
A good argument for guns as deterrents to violence is examples of situations where guns are successfully used as deterrents for violence. Not, as you've posted, incidences of violence where gun advocates use their imagination to speculate on a better outcome if the victim was armed.
- F
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John threw the law in their faces instead of doing anything about what was making them feel uncomfortable. Why should they not do the same if John violates the law in some trivial way in future?
It's not about John violating the law. It's about them laying a trap, or setting up a false situation and then making a huge deal about it when John really did nothing. It happens.
If your actions inspire others to dream more, learn more, do more and become more, you are a leader." - John Quincy Adams
You must accept one of two basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe, or we are not alone in the universe. And either way, the implications are staggering” - Wernher von Braun -
Like a free American. How'd it make you feel?
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
-----
You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
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"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997i would never be in that situation, so probably would never know.
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I don't think anyone can stop you from doing that.
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
-----
You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
-----
"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997 -
A good argument for guns as deterrents to violence is examples of situations where guns are successfully used as deterrents for violence. Not, as you've posted, incidences of violence where gun advocates use their imagination to speculate on a better outcome if the victim was armed.
- F
No, you misunderstand my point. Consistantly it has been shown that those who would harm you are typically not motivated to avoid the situation. The purpose of a firearm in self-defense is only margianlly based on deterence, more so to simply stay alive. Whether or not it deters a bad person is secondary to that point. Note the article - it wasn't until they had been struggling for minutes that the police arrived. He's very lucky he isn't dead. And, armed, trained citizens have demonstrated again and again that when you need it, it's nice to have. You just won't read about it that often... sort of runs counter culture to the main stream media.
Charlie Gilley You're going to tell me what I want to know, or I'm going to beat you to death in your own house. "Where liberty dwells, there is my country." B. Franklin, 1783 “They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” BF, 1759
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That's an interesting interpretation. Where, exactly, does the Constitution grant us the right to own whatever we want? Not trying to turn this into SB material, but it is an interesting debate so far. :)
It's all through the constitution, you can't be a free, prosperous people without being able to own things.
If your actions inspire others to dream more, learn more, do more and become more, you are a leader." - John Quincy Adams
You must accept one of two basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe, or we are not alone in the universe. And either way, the implications are staggering” - Wernher von Braun -
It's all through the constitution, you can't be a free, prosperous people without being able to own things.
If your actions inspire others to dream more, learn more, do more and become more, you are a leader." - John Quincy Adams
You must accept one of two basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe, or we are not alone in the universe. And either way, the implications are staggering” - Wernher von BraunYour statement is trueish as far as it goes, but it doesn't answer the question of where in the constitution you're granted the right to own anything you want. For example, the federal government has decided that you don't have the right to own cannabis plants. Is that unconstitutional and if you believe so, why? Provide the reference to the constitution that you believe gives you the right to own the aforementioned plants or that denies the government the right to make ownership illegal. The government does not have the right to take your property without due process, but they can determine that certain things are illegal to own. Have a great day!
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No, you misunderstand my point. Consistantly it has been shown that those who would harm you are typically not motivated to avoid the situation. The purpose of a firearm in self-defense is only margianlly based on deterence, more so to simply stay alive. Whether or not it deters a bad person is secondary to that point. Note the article - it wasn't until they had been struggling for minutes that the police arrived. He's very lucky he isn't dead. And, armed, trained citizens have demonstrated again and again that when you need it, it's nice to have. You just won't read about it that often... sort of runs counter culture to the main stream media.
Charlie Gilley You're going to tell me what I want to know, or I'm going to beat you to death in your own house. "Where liberty dwells, there is my country." B. Franklin, 1783 “They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” BF, 1759
So you're suggesting that the benefit of having a gun is the ability to shoot someone in self defense and save your own life (and not to prevent violence) but you don't really have any statistics or evidence for it because nobody documents it? That puts those of us who like guns as a hobby but who would like to weigh the seemingly minimal benefits of carrying/owning a gun against the significant, proven risks of available impulsive lethality (accidents, homicides, suicides) in a pretty difficult position.
- F
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Your statement is trueish as far as it goes, but it doesn't answer the question of where in the constitution you're granted the right to own anything you want. For example, the federal government has decided that you don't have the right to own cannabis plants. Is that unconstitutional and if you believe so, why? Provide the reference to the constitution that you believe gives you the right to own the aforementioned plants or that denies the government the right to make ownership illegal. The government does not have the right to take your property without due process, but they can determine that certain things are illegal to own. Have a great day!
LOL. Your analysis is correct. And I didn't mean to imply that one can own *anything* without restriction. And yes, you're correct, the gov't can proscribe ownership of certain things if it shows specific "state interest" in doing so. However, the right to property ownership is one of those inalienable human rights. In addition, the 10th and 9th Amendments reserves all rights and powers not granted specifically to the Federal Gov't to the States and the People.
If your actions inspire others to dream more, learn more, do more and become more, you are a leader." - John Quincy Adams
You must accept one of two basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe, or we are not alone in the universe. And either way, the implications are staggering” - Wernher von Braun -
Your statement is trueish as far as it goes, but it doesn't answer the question of where in the constitution you're granted the right to own anything you want. For example, the federal government has decided that you don't have the right to own cannabis plants. Is that unconstitutional and if you believe so, why? Provide the reference to the constitution that you believe gives you the right to own the aforementioned plants or that denies the government the right to make ownership illegal. The government does not have the right to take your property without due process, but they can determine that certain things are illegal to own. Have a great day!
In addition, the 3rd Amendment proscribes the quartering (or housing) of soldiers without the owner's consent. This certainly protects the ownership rights of the house's owner. Further, the 4th Amendment also protects a the "right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizure". Certainly, someone can't be protected from having something searched or seized if he or she does not own it. Additionally, the 5th Amendment prevents the gov't from depriving a person "of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation." Private property ownership is the very basic assumption of the U.S. Constitution.
If your actions inspire others to dream more, learn more, do more and become more, you are a leader." - John Quincy Adams
You must accept one of two basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe, or we are not alone in the universe. And either way, the implications are staggering” - Wernher von Braun -
LOL. Your analysis is correct. And I didn't mean to imply that one can own *anything* without restriction. And yes, you're correct, the gov't can proscribe ownership of certain things if it shows specific "state interest" in doing so. However, the right to property ownership is one of those inalienable human rights. In addition, the 10th and 9th Amendments reserves all rights and powers not granted specifically to the Federal Gov't to the States and the People.
If your actions inspire others to dream more, learn more, do more and become more, you are a leader." - John Quincy Adams
You must accept one of two basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe, or we are not alone in the universe. And either way, the implications are staggering” - Wernher von BraunYup, I know that about the amendments mentioned here and in your second response to my last message. I agree with you on the subject of property ownership being a basic right. My issue was with the idea that a particular type of property (in this case, a car) was something that we are guaranteed the right to own when that isn't the case, technically. In contrast, the second amendment guarantees the right to keep and bear arms, thus specifying a type of property that the government can't outlaw, in theory at least. In practice, they try to do just that, of course. And in Illinois, where I live, the state government infringes on both halves of that right every day. Thanks again for the opportunity to chat about this! It has been a nice mind-stretching exercise and a pleasant conversation, where it could have become acrimonious.
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Yup, I know that about the amendments mentioned here and in your second response to my last message. I agree with you on the subject of property ownership being a basic right. My issue was with the idea that a particular type of property (in this case, a car) was something that we are guaranteed the right to own when that isn't the case, technically. In contrast, the second amendment guarantees the right to keep and bear arms, thus specifying a type of property that the government can't outlaw, in theory at least. In practice, they try to do just that, of course. And in Illinois, where I live, the state government infringes on both halves of that right every day. Thanks again for the opportunity to chat about this! It has been a nice mind-stretching exercise and a pleasant conversation, where it could have become acrimonious.
Ah, I see your point. Yeah, there's nothing guaranteeing the right to own a specific type of property, other than the 2nd Amendment.
If your actions inspire others to dream more, learn more, do more and become more, you are a leader." - John Quincy Adams
You must accept one of two basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe, or we are not alone in the universe. And either way, the implications are staggering” - Wernher von Braun